Big Events should all have Streaming.

[JarnoV]

I agree that Justin, Lenny and others bring up good points to which perhaps there aren't good answers yet. But on the other hand, it's obvious that the whole equation has changed dramatically. If you can offer pretty much the same value (and even more) with vastly lower cost, to me it implies that the whole landscape will change. How exactly will it shape up to be isn't clear, but it should be obvious that it's going to be different.

Maybe the market isn't there yet, maybe some other things need to happen first. But to me there is no doubt that live streaming for one will change the pool world too. As JoeyA said, streaming is still in its infancy, though what Justin has come up with TAR has been nothing short of impressive.

Of course, this sort of broad philosophizing has no use for those that struggle with the currently non-existing market, but I think it's hard for anyone to disagree that this economy will change. It's not going to be easy for those producing shows, but I think live streaming will play bigger and bigger role in the pool culture. Some parties for sure are going to suffer from this change, but, still, the overall value will be bigger for everyone.

(I'm not saying that the money is a non-issue. It has to be solved some way for sure.)

 

[JAM]

This is news to me. On a stream with 1000 viewers how many are "bots" ? How do you come to this conclusion ?

Let me rephrase my terminology. Bots and "unique actual viewers" are what I am trying to explain. There's a difference. The unique actual viewer count can be deceiving.

Internet sites are capable of giving the appearance that there are thousands more viewers than there actually are.

I base my conclusions and form my opinions the same way you do.

 

[JAM]

...Pool can be a spectator sport (it's about marketing)....

I guess this is the $64,000 question. People have tried to market pool in the United States, but it does not sell. Non-pool-related industry sponsors won't invest monies into something that is not going to have a large viewership.

Putting pool ads on billboards along the highway is one form of advertising, but they cost money too. Commercials on TV are really expensive. Internet websites like AzBilliards seems to be the largest networking site for pool peeps, but is AzBilliards reaching mainstream viewership?

If you were to attend the annual U.S. Open 9-ball championship, the majority of the audience on site, as an example, is friends and families of the players and the players themselves. I wish it were different.

Cigarette and beer companies pulled out with their sponsorship monies for the most part. Pool-related sponsors do their part, i.e., Simonis, Brunswick, Aramith, Predator, et cetera, but they can only invest so much. TV coverage is expensive.

Livestream is the alternative to TV, but it still costs bucks to accomplish this feat as well. Most host pool rooms and tournament promoters are constrained by their budgets.

I would love to see a change agent come forth and effect that change for the better when it comes to pool.

 

[JAM]

...(I'm not saying that the money is a non-issue. It has to be solved some way for sure.)

I agree with the points you made in your post.

It also helps that the person selling their pool product, whatever it may be, has a pleasant disposition and is capable of representing pool in its best light.

Word of mouth is more powerful than some may realize. :wink:

 

[Tbeaux]

Cigarette and beer companies pulled out with their sponsorship monies for the most part.

Actually I believe the federal government passed laws and/or regulations regarding sponsorship and advertising by cig and alcohol companies thus forcing them away from sponsoring sports.

 

[JAM]

Actually I believe the federal government passed laws and/or regulations regarding sponsorship and advertising by cig and alcohol companies thus forcing them away from sponsoring sports.

That sounds about right, dag nab it.

Pool is a very tough sell in the U.S, but, in Philippines, it's sells like hot cakes.

It would be lovely to have a shoe manufacturer like Nike on board, but if you were to put, say, SVB on a commercial wearing some pool Nikes, we'd all enjoy it, but we're in the minority. The majority of mainstream viewers wouldn't know who SVB was. So, instead, Nike goes with well-known sports figures to sell their footwear.

It was thought that the hotels might be a good option because pool players travel and stay in hotels. In 2004 or 2005 (subject to check), Hilton Hotels wanted to sponsor a pool tour. They made an error in judgment when they decided to negotiate with the UPA tour, IMHO. After the so-called second tournament, the Hilton-sponsored pool tour came to an abrupt end.

We all know what happened with the IPT. Though millions of dollars was invested -- agents coming out of the woodwork to sign pool players under contract, Asian casino conglomerates contacted to see if they'd buy into the IPT, the IPT's King of the Hill from December 2005 in Orlando shown on Versus cable TV channel -- the IPT just could not stay afloat. Here's a situation where money was invested into pool, but it ended up like a dead fish floating in the water.

There is no question that money is the long-term problem, but how do you get money infused into pool?

 

[nathandumoulin]

A Matchroom TV Production that cost 'upwards of a million' would include the prize fund and a lot of other ancillary costs associated with a quality production. But they also have a product that is marketable in many countries. So the costs are probably comparable at the end of the day.

Comparable? Even if you subtract out the prize pool and the advertising, you're looking at $300k+ for the actual production aspect. How is that comparable to a figure almost 100x smaller?

And no worries Doug. I didn't interpret your post as down-playing my efforts.

But, I really would like to hear more about your company offering a low-cost intermediate broadcast.

My first full live broadcast production gig should be complete in late August or September (the details are still being worked out with the contracts over in the UK). Around the same time, my new website will launch with my latest project, and included will be an outline of the services offered by my crew. This will contain samples of our live production to show people how close we can come to $100k+ productions.

People in this industry don't like to hear talk, so I feel that it's in my best interest to wait until this first broadcast is complete so that I can show people samples when I push the service. Otherwise I feel people will envision a traditional stream, rather than a full blown TV type broadcast.

I will say however that we will be catering to only major events.

When TAR streamed the US Open 10 Ball this year we had a crew of five. We were able to trade out for some compensation but total expenses including that trade out's dollar value and cash was around $6000. We had a great crew but the guys who helped made nowhere near what they should of and what they were worth. This stuff when you try to do much more than one guy with a static camera or two gets expensive fast.

As always, Justin is right on the money here. A 2 static-camera operation costs enough as it is, but as soon as you factor in 3+ cameras with operators, you've tripled the equipment cost, the airfare and accommodations, and the wages. I really can't see high-end streaming becoming all that common except for major events.

The livestreams, though they seem like they have a thousand viewers, the majority of them are bots.

Umm...no.

(I won't argue why)

I think it boils down to pool is not a good spectator sport.

Pool is CURRENTLY not a good spectator sport.

Why? Because the format is dated and needs to be modernized.

I have a few extremely innovative ideas that can achieve this. I'm sure a few others out there have some pretty amazing ideas as well. It's only a matter of time until someone is in the position to apply these ideas to the format.

Come October 1st, I may be in such a position....so who knows.

 

[JAM]

...


Umm...no.

(I won't argue why)

Here's a better way of putting it: "Pool is CURRENTLY not a good spectator sport."

The current format in which pool is shown is dated. It needs to be modernized.

I have a few extremely innovative ideas that can achieve this. I'm sure a few others out there have some pretty amazing ideas as well. It's only a matter of time until someone is in the position to apply these ideas to the format.

Come October 1st, I may be in such a position....so who knows.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you're going to be "the" one that will be successful, Nathan, to showcase pool in a new light. Not only do you have passion and ambition, two very important ingredients to make something happen, but you've got personality-plus. Believe it or not, this can be a deal-maker or deal-breaker in business.

I think when you do get your product off and running, prospective clients will enjoy working with you. Heck, I don't even know you, and I'm already in your corner, rooting for you to succeed. :wave3:

 

[pro9dg]

Comparable? Even if you subtract out the prize pool and the advertising, you're looking at $300k+ for the actual production aspect. How is that comparable to a figure almost 100x smaller?

And no worries Doug. I didn't interpret your post as down-playing my efforts.



My first full live broadcast production gig should be complete in late August or September (the details are still being worked out with the contracts over in the UK). Around the same time, my new website will launch with my latest project, and included will be an outline of the services offered by my crew. This will contain samples of our live production to show people how close we can come to $100k+ productions.

I will say however that we will be catering to only major events.

I am certainly not trying to Rain on Your Parade and see your initiative as a very positive development. But I think that the presentation of pool needs to take a Quantum Leap if it is to whet the appetite of an indifferent public.
Maybe you are the man to do it and I have some interesting views (even if I say so myself) which may help you to achieve your goals if you would like me to share them with you. My credentials in cue sports span back over 32 years and I have developed the knack of recognising 'The Real Deal'.
Nathan, I think that you can number yourself in that category

 

[JAM]

I am certainly not trying to Rain on Your Parade and see your initiative as a very positive development. But I think that the presentation of pool needs to take a Quantum Leap if it is to whet the appetite of an indifferent public.
Maybe you are the man to do it and I have some interesting views (even if I say so myself) which may help you to achieve your goals if you would like me to share them with you. My credentials in cue sports span back over 32 years and I have developed the knack of recognising 'The Real Deal'.
Nathan, I think that you can number yourself in that category

Wow! Coming from pro9dg, that is quite a compliment, Nathan!

 

[cuesmith]

I agree to an extent. I do feel that the majors, at least, should be done by Accu-Stats! No one has come close to their professionalism and dedication to the sport. I just wish they's have been around back in the Johnson City era. I'd love to watch all the matches from those tournaments as I missed that era. Accu-Stats has been the premier pool video archivers for many years and we all owe them a great debt. Buy some Accu-Stats dvd's and help support our sport!

That being said I do appreciate the folks who stream the tournaments. They give of themselves to bring us our pool fix on a regular basis. I thank them also!

 

[JoeyA]

Who is going to pay for it?

The Seminoles have embraced streaming and use Big Truck for their events but they are the only ones in the game with the means to make it make sense. Every other promoter wants the coverage but is hard pressed to come up with a way to make it make sense.

As for Matchroom style coverage it is impossible in the current climate in this country. You are talking six figures in production costs for a five to seven day major event, no network is going to pay that and no promoter can either.

Justin,
I think that there should be different levels of Live Streaming for whatever fits your budget.

As you said, The Seminoles have enbraced streaming and I think other entities like the Casinos can justify the expenditure.

Some tournaments may only be able to justify a camera and a laptop with locals volunteering their time. Tournament promoters and pool room owners can provide eats and drinks for those volunteering their time and minimal equipment.

Look, you've been on the frontier of Live Streaming for as long as I can remember and I know there aren't many things that you haven't experienced. I am on the outside looking in for the most part and simply see that the marketing of live streaming needs some tweaking and most of it on the promoters end and the pool room's end.

If promoters and pool rooms don't want to fille the seats with non-playing customers, so be it. Stay the course.

My secondary point to the thread is that there are certain things that promoters and pool room owners can do to make their events more successful but they have to be ACTIVE. I see few promoters and room owners being actively involved in a productive way and there's always room for improvement for everyone.

The live streaming is just a part of the promotion process and owners and promoters should all be developing databases of cell phones and email addresses and I don't see many of them going to the trouble even though the cost is merely their time. I'm sure there are locals who would help out in building the databases but the owners & promoters have to have the impetus to do this and other things I've mentioned in the original post.

Live streamers have been living on bread and water for a LONG TIME. They need to do their part and develop new revenue streams.
I mentioned advertising tournaments on the live streams as one way to add a few dollars to the streamer's wallet. Live Streamers need to find out what the promoters and room owners want and help fill that need.

Live Streamers should be working the League Operators but they're NOT, at least not to any great degree.

There are lots of ways for promoters and room owners to utilize live streaming and it takes more money when you want someone else to do the work. If they want to cut corners they can do the live streaming themselves. One purpose of the thread is to wake up the promoters and the room owners to let them know that there are some things that they can be doing to promote their business and their tournaments.

Here's hoping that for Live Streamers like yourself that the glass is still half-full.

 

[JCIN]

I agree to an extent. I do feel that the majors, at least, should be done by Accu-Stats! No one has come close to their professionalism and dedication to the sport. I just wish they's have been around back in the Johnson City era. I'd love to watch all the matches from those tournaments as I missed that era. Accu-Stats has been the premier pool video archivers for many years and we all owe them a great debt. Buy some Accu-Stats dvd's and help support our sport!

That being said I do appreciate the folks who stream the tournaments. They give of themselves to bring us our pool fix on a regular basis. I thank them also!

I agree. Pat and his crew are the gold standard in the industry and thanks to his work over the years we are all enriched by being able to view some great matches.

There is a reason Pat only travels twice a year now. If you think getting a streamer is expensive call him and see what it takes for him to leave the house. All that quality comes at a price and what he works for at the Open and Derby is nothing compared to what a real life pro crew making scale would cost.

Pat is a pro and treats it as a business. He doesnt take the worst of it just to try and make something happen anymore (I am sure he has done plenty of that in the past) The fact that only two events can support him shows the state the pro scene is in.

 

[nathandumoulin]

I am certainly not trying to Rain on Your Parade and see your initiative as a very positive development. But I think that the presentation of pool needs to take a Quantum Leap if it is to whet the appetite of an indifferent public.

Maybe you are the man to do it and I have some interesting views (even if I say so myself) which may help you to achieve your goals if you would like me to share them with you. My credentials in cue sports span back over 32 years and I have developed the knack of recognising 'The Real Deal'.
Nathan, I think that you can number yourself in that category

Thanks for the compliment.

As mentioned later in the post that you quoted, I also have some very innovative ideas. It sounds like we're on the same page on this one.

Unfortunately my new ideas will cost more money to produce, however given the opportunity, I feel that I can still achieve this at a cost far lower than current standards.

My first few broadcasts will focus on quality rather than being innovative. The innovation will come only when an event holder provides me with the freedom to apply my new ideas.

As for your ideas, I'd be more than happy to hear them. Feel free to shoot me a PM.

 

[JCIN]

Justin,
I think that there should be different levels of Live Streaming for whatever fits your budget.

As you said, The Seminoles have enbraced streaming and I think other entities like the Casinos can justify the expenditure.

Some tournaments may only be able to justify a camera and a laptop with locals volunteering their time. Tournament promoters and pool room owners can provide eats and drinks for those volunteering their time and minimal equipment.

Look, you've been on the frontier of Live Streaming for as long as I can remember and I know there aren't many things that you haven't experienced. I am on the outside looking in for the most part and simply see that the marketing of live streaming needs some tweaking and most of it on the promoters end and the pool room's end.

If promoters and pool rooms don't want to fille the seats with non-playing customers, so be it. Stay the course.

My secondary point to the thread is that there are certain things that promoters and pool room owners can do to make their events more successful but they have to be ACTIVE. I see few promoters and room owners being actively involved in a productive way and there's always room for improvement for everyone.

The live streaming is just a part of the promotion process and owners and promoters should all be developing databases of cell phones and email addresses and I don't see many of them going to the trouble even though the cost is merely their time. I'm sure there are locals who would help out in building the databases but the owners & promoters have to have the impetus to do this and other things I've mentioned in the original post.

Live streamers have been living on bread and water for a LONG TIME. They need to do their part and develop new revenue streams.
I mentioned advertising tournaments on the live streams as one way to add a few dollars to the streamer's wallet. Live Streamers need to find out what the promoters and room owners want and help fill that need.

Live Streamers should be working the League Operators but they're NOT, at least not to any great degree.

There are lots of ways for promoters and room owners to utilize live streaming and it takes more money when you want someone else to do the work. If they want to cut corners they can do the live streaming themselves. One purpose of the thread is to wake up the promoters and the room owners to let them know that there are some things that they can be doing to promote their business and their tournaments.

Here's hoping that for Live Streamers like yourself that the glass is still half-full.

Personally I don't think pool tournaments as they are currently structured have any kind of viability for either financial or mainstream success. The last thirty or so years at least seem to validate that.

If promoting pool tournaments made sense you would have competition among promoters and ever rising prize funds to attract top players. They dont make financial sense so you don't have people competing to put them on. Hence so many "First Annual" events.

As for all of the things you mention to help promote events they all have some merit. What I think you discount too easily is when you say it is only "time" that someone has invested. The Galveston group had the largest budget in recent times and a long lead time to do their event and we all saw how that turned out. A giant loss for the promoters. And they actually had some capital. If a group like that can't do all the little things I think it is maybe not so easy as you seem to think it is.

What about volunteers you ask? Volunteers are cool and all but they can't be counted on and usually you spend more time organizing the free help than actually getting anything accomplished. The only person who has figured out how to focus volunteers is Allen Hopkins so he proves with years and years of experience in the same venue it is possible.

One thing I agree with you 110% about is that there is always room to improve and do things better or smarter.

TAR is out of the tournament streaming game barring being paid to do it as a contractor. The days of fronting expenses and hoping to break even are over. But this is a good thing because it allows to focus on something new.

A paradigm shift in how pool is presented.

Will it work? We'll see.

 

[cuesmith]

I agree. Pat and his crew are the gold standard in the industry and thanks to his work over the years we are all enriched by being able to view some great matches.

There is a reason Pat only travels twice a year now. If you think getting a streamer is expensive call him and see what it takes for him to leave the house. All that quality comes at a price and what he works for at the Open and Derby is nothing compared to what a real life pro crew making scale would cost.

You're right but just to make one thing clear, the reason the cost of him doing a tournament is so great is not that Pat is making a big profit from the tournaments, it's the expense of moving all of the necessary equipment to the tourney, and getting everything set up and manned with all the camera men, commentators and technicians, their nut (room & board for the crew) and all the work and time involved in production. Pat does treat this as a business, but he's not trying to get rich from it. He can't foot the bill for everything without a guarantee he'll be able to pay his crew and have gas money to get back home. Pat has reinvested most of his profits into upgrading his equipment so he can deliver the best possible product to the consumers. Pat really is one of the good guys and while I may be out of line saying this publicly, I know that he's been struggling to keep the ship afloat! He needs and deserves our support! The pool community is sometimes shortsighted about issues like this and we should realize what a loss it would be if he had to shut down because of lack of support! PLEASE, everyone, get on the bandwagon and help support one of pools most important businesses! Buy some DVD's, you'll never regret it, and keep Accu-Stats on the front lines bringing us the best in pool! Thanks for everything you can do!

 

[JCIN]

You're right but just to make one thing clear, the reason the cost of him doing a tournament is so great is not that Pat is making a big profit from the tournaments, it's the expense of moving all of the necessary equipment to the tourney, and getting everything set up and manned with all the camera men, commentators and technicians, their nut (room & board for the crew) and all the work and time involved in production. Pat does treat this as a business, but he's not trying to get rich from it. He can't foot the bill for everything without a guarantee he'll be able to pay his crew and have gas money to get back home. Pat has reinvested most of his profits into upgrading his equipment so he can deliver the best possible product to the consumers. Pat really is one of the good guys and while I may be out of line saying this publicly, I know that he's been struggling to keep the ship afloat! He needs and deserves our support! The pool community is sometimes shortsighted about issues like this and we should realize what a loss it would be if he had to shut down because of lack of support! PLEASE, everyone, get on the bandwagon and help support one of pools most important businesses! Buy some DVD's, you'll never regret it, and keep Accu-Stats on the front lines bringing us the best in pool! Thanks for everything you can do!

I never meant to give the impression that Pat is getting rich or high rolling anyone. Anyone who has seen his set up and counts his crew should be able to tell it is an expensive affair just to move it all. My point was if a promoter had to pay scale for a production of similar quality it would probably cost four to five times as much if not more. Pat does what he does because he loves it but you wont see him taking any fliers without a net anymore. He is a smart man.

In just about any other industry with the numbers that pool supposedly has Pat should be a very wealthy man for all he has done over the years. The fact that he isn't and the fact that people feel the need to apologize for wanting to actually make a profit in this industry is a sad thing.

 

[JoeyA]

Personally I don't think pool tournaments as they are currently structured have any kind of viability for either financial or mainstream success. The last thirty or so years at least seem to validate that.

If promoting pool tournaments made sense you would have competition among promoters and ever rising prize funds to attract top players. They dont make financial sense so you don't have people competing to put them on. Hence so many "First Annual" events.

As for all of the things you mention to help promote events they all have some merit. What I think you discount too easily is when you say it is only "time" that someone has invested. The Galveston group had the largest budget in recent times and a long lead time to do their event and we all saw how that turned out. A giant loss for the promoters. And they actually had some capital. If a group like that can't do all the little things I think it is maybe not so easy as you seem to think it is.

What about volunteers you ask? Volunteers are cool and all but they can't be counted on and usually you spend more time organizing the free help than actually getting anything accomplished. The only person who has figured out how to focus volunteers is Allen Hopkins so he proves with years and years of experience in the same venue it is possible.

One thing I agree with you 110% about is that there is always room to improve and do things better or smarter.

TAR is out of the tournament streaming game barring being paid to do it as a contractor. The days of fronting expenses and hoping to break even are over. But this is a good thing because it allows to focus on something new.

A paradigm shift in how pool is presented.

Will it work? We'll see.

Unfortunately, while Taylor Road Production had some sizeable capital to work with, they were short on experience and experience is a good teacher.

And for the record, you're very much mistaken as I don't think promoting pool successfully is easy. I believe just the opposite but I continue to look at pool and hope to see discussions like what is going on in this thread to shed additional light on the way things can be done better.

You make a good point about the tournament business not making financial sense for many and until pool is broadcast on television or other mediums that generate large amounts of advertising dollars, pool will be mired in quicksand for another thirty or so years.

You've spent an enormous amount of time doing live streaming with few financial rewards. I hope that whatever you focus on will bring you the financial rewards and the satisfaction that you deserve.

 

[ShootingArts]

everybody has an opinion

Mine is that for streaming to be truly viable the streamer is going to have to be able to afford to buy or rent their own satellite uplink system to insure a top quality feed with very rare issues. Rental is very high for these beasts and then you still have to purchase or lease satellite time. Buying your own satellite uplink equipment is expensive but it looks like it is down to $40,000 to $60,000 new for some units. That isn't miles out of reach and is a far cry from the $250,000 a copy a guy I once knew charged for satellite trucks in the early days. I suspect a used uplink system could be found for around $20,000 or so. That is still a huge chunk to put on the table but it's all relative. Easy to tie up over a hundred thousand in other gear.

At risk of annoying the people streaming now, most if not all are running the streaming as a sideline or hobby. What would happen if you advertised your services available for any event that wanted streaming? Is anybody streaming the big weddings that are already dropping $20,000 on up to hundreds of thousands? Could be a market. Corporations could be interested in streaming some of their events too. Charge a flat fee for DVD production and a cost per copy too. It seems to me that it is at least possible that if a person were to run their business much like a professional photographer with making a living streaming as a first priority and streaming pool as a second priority, reserving dates for the bigger events, then it might be possible to afford the equipment and manpower to do things and look at least very close to TV production quality. Wasn't it Bigtruck that teamed with Accu-Stats or Matchroom for one event? I remember we had a fantastic feed that was the equal of most of the events on ESPN, superior to ESPN of not that many years ago.

Like pool as a whole, streamers need a sound business plan or a rich sugar daddy. Those ever elusive rich sugar daddies haven't worked out too well so far for any of us.

I do much appreciate what the streamers do now. However I would like to see them making real money so that they can turn out the product they all would like to be able to produce.

Hu

 

[nathandumoulin]

Wasn't it Bigtruck that teamed with Accu-Stats or Matchroom for one event? I remember we had a fantastic feed that was the equal of most of the events on ESPN, superior to ESPN of not that many years ago.

Hu, by chance are you referring to the US Open 10 ball stream? Or was this an earlier production that I may have missed?