Big Events should all have Streaming.

[ShootingArts]

sorry, I'm not sure

Hu, by chance are you referring to the US Open 10 ball stream? Or was this an earlier production that I may have missed?

That might have been it. Pretty sure that they had camera men with shoulder cams for the stream I am talking about if that helps. It is the only stream I have seen using camera men.

Not practical to use camera men at many of the streaming venues is one issue streamers face. There are some very nice small remote cameras that can scan and zoom and such using joy stick control and I've thought how wonderful a handful of these little beasts in the HD version would be. Daydreaming of about six around a TV table. However I have learned when B&H just puts "call" where the price goes it means I can't afford something!

Hu

 

[Matt90]

good post

I never meant to give the impression that Pat is getting rich or high rolling anyone. Anyone who has seen his set up and counts his crew should be able to tell it is an expensive affair just to move it all. My point was if a promoter had to pay scale for a production of similar quality it would probably cost four to five times as much if not more. Pat does what he does because he loves it but you wont see him taking any fliers without a net anymore. He is a smart man.

In just about any other industry with the numbers that pool supposedly has Pat should be a very wealthy man for all he has done over the years. The fact that he isn't and the fact that people feel the need to apologize for wanting to actually make a profit in this industry is a sad thing.

The part about apologizing for making a profit is spot on !!:thumbup: Never will be a big audience for pool ........it's just not a specator sport .No blood ,no crashes , not enough people with the IQ level or interest to set and watch pool for hours and hours.......poker is even easier on the eyes and grey matter. Plus I love streaming and video so don't shout me down BUT I have to say it really got to me when I had 500 viewers at 4 am at the Carolina open a few years back watching one of the best matches between Archer and Hillbilly ever.......there were only 8-10 people left in the pool room. If more people and players stayed around and supported pool live and in person.....then pool streaming has a better chance .Fill up the room 1st and tell folks sorry we can't let anyone else in the building but you can watch it live online at www.shoootdatthang.com :grin: The only reason I watch some stuff on tv is because I don't want to fight the crowd at the live show....simple .

 

[nathandumoulin]

That might have been it. Pretty sure that they had camera men with shoulder cams for the stream I am talking about if that helps. It is the only stream I have seen using camera men.

That was actually put on by TAR along with my crew, Runout Media. We had all the cameras manned on rolling dollys so that we could pivot around the table to get "down the barrel" on as many shots as we could.

Sadly I was a camera operator, and never got to see what the stream looked like. I hope Justin gets the matches posted one day, but the longer he takes, the less likely it is that it will ever happen.

 

[ShootingArts]

apologies!

That was actually put on by TAR along with my crew, Runout Media. We had all the cameras manned on rolling dollys so that we could pivot around the table to get "down the barrel" on as many shots as we could.

Sadly I was a camera operator, and never got to see what the stream looked like. I hope Justin gets the matches posted one day, but the longer he takes, the less likely it is that it will ever happen.

Camera work was great and the image quality was it's equal. If there is any chance of a live stream being successful one like that would be once the word got out. Kudos to all involved, that was head and shoulders the best stream I have seen production wise.

Sorry I dropped the ball as to who was involved!

Hu

 

[nathandumoulin]

Camera work was great and the image quality was it's equal. If there is any chance of a live stream being successful one like that would be once the word got out. Kudos to all involved, that was head and shoulders the best stream I have seen production wise.

Sorry I dropped the ball as to who was involved!

Hu

Thanks Hu. I'm working on offering a similar service as we speak, but with the quality upped about 3 fold.

And no worries about forgetting who put the show on. Justin was the man in charge anyway. It's also easy to accidentally throw Ray into the mix, as he's easily the best one-man operation around.

(tried to rep you for the kind words, but apparently I need to spread some around first )

 

[Fast Lenny]

I am excited to see what you come up with Nathan for sure. As for Justin, I can understand your frustrations about streaming tournaments, I know you have a good deal invested in this, time and money along with having a crew also can be a pricey deal. I hope somehow things change for those who are in the pool biz in general. I do what I can to plug guys like TAR, Nathan and Pat with Accustats on my stream, we are all brothers in this IMO.

The tournaments I have done out of town always cost me money and its not easy to find the time with 2 young kids but I love the game. I think though that you do have to find a way to make money at it to make improvements even if its not a true and through biz for me. I get people who would like to have there tournament streamed and when I tell them all expenses covered and I will give my time for nothing which actually cost me money then it is a problem.

I had a talk with a friend the other day and said I was not going places just for a plane ticket or the free food/drinks, lmao, cover it all in advance, I am still doing a favor for them not making a nickel, I have one more tourney I obligated to do which will cost me and that is it for me. To travel anywhere in the country to do a stream for 3 days from me will run about $800-1000, plane ticket, baggage, hotel, and that is only if the room provides transportation here and there along with food and drink, pool hall food gets old though and most rooms do not have kitchens so it can be rough.

I think promoters and room owners when they have big events should put streaming in the budget. Get connected with a good streamer who can run commercials and promote the sponsors, some might only have a budget for a guy like me with my small setup, major events might want TAR to come out because they want the best. Those promoters have a better chance drawing sponsors since they will have the broadcast then if they did not, they just need to sell it to the sponsors as great advertising which it is, the extra sponsors they attain will pay for the streaming cost they shelled out.

IMO streaming is reaching more people then most billiard mags and newspapers are. I mean how much do people pay for ad space in those things, even the little pool papers that half of them get thrown in the garbage. Streaming is in your face and live, its the nuts and we all know it, hopefully the streaming squirrels will get some nuts from it all besides some of the nuts watching the streams. :thumbup:

 

[JAM]

One big problem with pool has always been getting the message out there via the media that there is a happening. Nobody knows about the livestreaming unless they read about it somewhere. Usually I hear about them on AzBilliards, but what are other possible advertising vehicles?

Here's a little nugget I just read about a lady from Levittown who won a triple sweepstake from Brunswick Billiards:

Natalie Migliore, of Levittown, has been named the winner of the Brunswick Billiards Triple Jackpot sweepstakes, earning a four-day, three-night trip to Las Vegas July 15 to 18.

Along with other prizes, she will take a shot at winning $100,000 by sinking the nine ball on the break at the Brunswick Billiards booth at the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) International Billiard and Home Recreation Expo on Thursday, July 15.

As the winner of the Triple Jackpot contest, Migliore’s trip to Las Vegas for two includes hotel, airfare and $1,000. She also will experience a personal lesson and lunch with BCA Hall of Famer and former World Champion billiard player Ewa Mataya Laurance along with a copy of Laurance’s “Getting Started” DVD and an autographed copy of her book, “The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Pool and Billiards”.

It happened at the BCA show recently, I assume. Taking a shot at winning $100,000 by sinking the 9-ball on the break is attractive. I'm sure Migliore is thrilled with this prize. Wow!

A contest may be one way that the livestreamers could attract new viewership. I'm not suggesting something this large like Brunswick Billiards offered, but the prizes for a contest do not have to be restricted to pool products.

Somebody might think about approaching a non-pool-related industry member and inquire if they'd like to offer a prize for a livestream contest in exchange for advertising. I guess what I am saying is sponsors for livestreams don't have to be restricted to pool industry members. Experienced sales people have charismatic personalities and should be utilized for this endeavor. Not everybody has sales expertise, and it is a skill set.

Successful business people learn how to delegate. That's how they grow and become successful. It's utilizing the right people for the right job.

A contest might attract new viewers, aside from the AzBilliards' members. It seems like pool forums and pool Internet sites are the only way to find out about the livestreams. If growth in numbers for viewership is desired, there may be other places to advertise a livestream besides this forum. I don't know what they are, but I just throw these ideas out there as food for thought!

 

[JAM]

...Successful business people learn how to delegate. That's how they grow and become successful. It's utilizing the right people for the right job....

I have a client who's writing a biography about a wealthy man, an entrepreneur, philanthropist, and playboy. You name it, this man has done it.

One of his homes, as an example, is 55,000 square feet.

How he has managed to stay under the radar is beyond me, but when the book comes out, this one will be a bestseller, no question. :wink:

Anyway, this successful businessman stated in an interview that he attributes his rise in business to finding the right people with the needed expertise for the job. He claims to have learned this from having served in the military early on, and that delegation is how he gained his fortune.

It is not possible to rise in business when you're chief cook and bottle washer. Finding qualified people who can get the job done is key. If advertising or marketing is what livestreaming needs, then this arena may need to be explored more fully. It is an expense but one that may pay for itself in the end if done correctly.

Advertising on only pool websites, though this will attract the pool enthusiasts, is limiting the livestream's viewing audience. In order to grow in popularity, the livestream must reach larger audiences. To achieve this goal, new and innovative ways to market is key.

Not all livestream experts may be effective communicators. Delegate, delegate, delegate.

 

[ShootingArts]

the same is true of our greatest presidents

I have a client who's writing a biography about a wealthy man, an entrepreneur, philanthropist, and playboy. You name it, this man has done it.

One of his homes, as an example, is 55,000 square feet.

How he has managed to stay under the radar is beyond me, but when the book comes out, this one will be a bestseller, no question. :wink:

Anyway, this successful businessman stated in an interview that he attributes his rise in business to finding the right people with the needed expertise for the job. He claims to have learned this from having served in the military early on, and that delegation is how he gained his fortune.

It is not possible to rise in business when you're chief cook and bottle washer. Finding qualified people who can get the job done is key. If advertising or marketing is what livestreaming needs, then this arena may need to be explored more fully. It is an expense but one that may pay for itself in the end if done correctly.

Advertising on only pool websites, though this will attract the pool enthusiasts, is limiting the livestream's viewing audience. In order to grow in popularity, the livestream must reach larger audiences. To achieve this goal, new and innovative ways to market is key.

Not all livestream experts may be effective communicators. Delegate, delegate, delegate.

You have to be able to put good people in place and support them realizing they may not be perfect. I did the same at my businesses standing behind what the people authorized to speak for me said although it cost me some pretty heavy cash hits sometimes. All I could do is tell my people in private to never do that again.

I once worked for a total idiot. Perhaps he was an idiot savant though because he put together the finest group of people I have ever worked with.

Hu

 

[dardusm]

You have to be able to put good people in place and support them realizing they may not be perfect. I did the same at my businesses standing behind what the people authorized to speak for me said although it cost me some pretty heavy cash hits sometimes. All I could do is tell my people in private to never do that again.

I once worked for a total idiot. Perhaps he was an idiot savant though because he put together the finest group of people I have ever worked with.

Hu

A business axiom is to hire the best people possible for a job. A weak manager may be fearful that the person he hires will eventually take his job and instead hire someone of a lower skill set. Big mistake! So maybe this guy wasn't a total idiot.

 

[mlalum]

Since I started visiting this forum 9 months ago the live streaming discussion has come a long way. The discussion is getting closer and closer to understanding the way it really is. A couple key players have made the transition. I haven't always been able to say this but I think Justin has just given you the true picture. It's pretty simple really. The idea of streaming such as it is is a dead end. And the worse thing a business person or visionary can do is go down a dead end road.

Actually it's a little worse than I think Justin will say or Joey A can imagine.

If events unfold suitably I'm going to sponsor a small $1K-$2K added tourney. Do I think I will get business value out of it? Absolutely not. Doing it almost just to do it. I've been asked that if i do it will I want it live streamed? My answer is also absolutely not.

The issue missed by most az pool enthusiasts is the poor image of the sport and the sophistication of a large dollar sponsor. Say I'm a $2K sponsor and you put my company name on a banner that can be seen on the live stream. In the real world the sponsor believes that anything that is said on the air or in the chat with my banner in the background reflects on me the sponsor. Game over. On most live streams it would take about 2 minutes for me to call in and pull my advertising. You guys just don't get that. Tiger Woods was the biggest cash generating figure in sports history and many sponsors were willing to drop him even though he was money. Everything you say or show is a reflection on a sponsor. A potential non=pool sponsor that's going to stay in business will never ever risk their reputation on a live pool stream such as they are now.

On TV where there are sponsors involved if some minor discretion happens in a broadcast people get fired or apologies are quickly made. That's the reality of big dollar sponsorship. You don't just throw any crap against the wall and say it's ok because it's a stream. No money is going to follow that.

I also think Joey A has some wrong assumptions. The biggest one being is if you promote bar room pool tourneys people are going to naturaly flock to that promotion. Uh, you need to take a hard look at that product. People have seen it and they haven't flocked.

Streaming is for the hobby people and the hardcore. I had hoped it would help the sport but the numbers just aren't there and risks are too high for anyone with money who wants to keep it.

Justin is a wise man. He's finally seeing that if you understand something can't work then you have to try something else if you're going to stay in business. I salute that and hope the new idea works. Clean up the sport, clean up the presentation, make it interesting for the mainstream not the hardcore and then maybe you can move forward again. Good luck Justin.

 

[JoeyA]

If events unfold suitably I'm going to sponsor a small $1K-$2K added tourney. Do I think I will get business value out of it? Absolutely not. Doing it almost just to do it. I've been asked that if i do it will I want it live streamed? My answer is also absolutely not.

If you're sponsoring a small 1-2K added tournament just to be doing it then you're doing it for the wrong reason. I would hope that you are at least trying to build some good will with your customers, interest prospective customers in taking up pool, increase discussion about your business, maybe try to cultivate some new customers in the process. If you aren't doing it for at least these reasons, you're just blowing your dough.

The issue missed by most az pool enthusiasts is the poor image of the sport and the sophistication of a large dollar sponsor. Say I'm a $2K sponsor and you put my company name on a banner that can be seen on the live stream. In the real world the sponsor believes that anything that is said on the air or in the chat with my banner in the background reflects on me the sponsor. Game over. On most live streams it would take about 2 minutes for me to call in and pull my advertising. You guys just don't get that. Tiger Woods was the biggest cash generating figure in sports history and many sponsors were willing to drop him even though he was money. Everything you say or show is a reflection on a sponsor. A potential non=pool sponsor that's going to stay in business will never ever risk their reputation on a live pool stream such as they are now.

You have a good point here. When discussions digress into tasteless subjects or viscious attacks by trolls with evil on their mind, whether it is in the booth or in the chat room, many sponsors will look for other places to put their advertising dollars. If the whole production isn't looking out for the sponsors, all it lost. The customer (sponsor) comes first.

On TV where there are sponsors involved if some minor discretion happens in a broadcast people get fired or apologies are quickly made. That's the reality of big dollar sponsorship. You don't just throw any crap against the wall and say it's ok because it's a stream. No money is going to follow that.

I also think Joey A has some wrong assumptions. The biggest one being is if you promote bar room pool tourneys people are going to naturaly flock to that promotion. Uh, you need to take a hard look at that product. People have seen it and they haven't flocked.

The more successful local tournaments are "advertised" and tweaked on a regular basis. The old saying out of sight, out of mind rings true for most of the players I know that like to play in tournaments. If the tournament is not being talked about, discussed or ballyhooed, only the hard core players are going to play. The local tournaments have to be "Sold" and "RESOLD" over and over for them to be successful or to remain successful.

That being said if you're expect to pack 64 players into a pool room for a weekly tournament, you need to put the pipe down.

Streaming is for the hobby people and the hardcore. I had hoped it would help the sport but the numbers just aren't there and risks are too high for anyone with money who wants to keep it.

Right now, it is primarily the hobby people and the hardcore pool people who are viewing the Live Streams but new audiences may be attracted to it but in my opinion, those target audiences haven't been courted or even asked to attend.

You can blame the industry, the sponsors, the sport itself, the characters in the sport, the chat room, the commentators, the players, the fans, the spectators, the smoke, the Internet connection, the quality of the video, the bathrooms, the expenses on both sides of the fence or even Obama for the fledging Live Streams in pool but the truth is that all of those areas could be improved and I see few initiatives to make improvements in any of those areas, especially by those who have the most to gain.

Maybe, discussions like this can improve pool's bottom line for everyone but I'm not going to be a Chicken Little.

 

[JAM]

You can blame the industry, the sponsors, the sport itself, the characters in the sport, the chat room, the commentators, the players, the fans, the spectators, the smoke, the Internet connection, the quality of the video, the bathrooms, the expenses on both sides of the fence or even Obama for the fledging Live Streams in pool but the truth is that all of those areas could be improved and I see few initiatives to make improvements in any of those areas, especially by those who have the most to gain.

Maybe, discussions like this can improve pool's bottom line for everyone but I'm not going to be a Chicken Little.

I admire your enthusiasm, JoeyA.

Basically, what you're saying is where there's a will, there's a way!

In the words of Warren Buffett, "In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield." :grin:

 

[Fast Lenny]

Since I started visiting this forum 9 months ago the live streaming discussion has come a long way. The discussion is getting closer and closer to understanding the way it really is. A couple key players have made the transition. I haven't always been able to say this but I think Justin has just given you the true picture. It's pretty simple really. The idea of streaming such as it is is a dead end. And the worse thing a business person or visionary can do is go down a dead end road.

Actually it's a little worse than I think Justin will say or Joey A can imagine.

If events unfold suitably I'm going to sponsor a small $1K-$2K added tourney. Do I think I will get business value out of it? Absolutely not. Doing it almost just to do it. I've been asked that if i do it will I want it live streamed? My answer is also absolutely not.

The issue missed by most az pool enthusiasts is the poor image of the sport and the sophistication of a large dollar sponsor. Say I'm a $2K sponsor and you put my company name on a banner that can be seen on the live stream. In the real world the sponsor believes that anything that is said on the air or in the chat with my banner in the background reflects on me the sponsor. Game over. On most live streams it would take about 2 minutes for me to call in and pull my advertising. You guys just don't get that. Tiger Woods was the biggest cash generating figure in sports history and many sponsors were willing to drop him even though he was money. Everything you say or show is a reflection on a sponsor. A potential non=pool sponsor that's going to stay in business will never ever risk their reputation on a live pool stream such as they are now.

On TV where there are sponsors involved if some minor discretion happens in a broadcast people get fired or apologies are quickly made. That's the reality of big dollar sponsorship. You don't just throw any crap against the wall and say it's ok because it's a stream. No money is going to follow that.

I also think Joey A has some wrong assumptions. The biggest one being is if you promote bar room pool tourneys people are going to naturaly flock to that promotion. Uh, you need to take a hard look at that product. People have seen it and they haven't flocked.

Streaming is for the hobby people and the hardcore. I had hoped it would help the sport but the numbers just aren't there and risks are too high for anyone with money who wants to keep it.

Justin is a wise man. He's finally seeing that if you understand something can't work then you have to try something else if you're going to stay in business. I salute that and hope the new idea works. Clean up the sport, clean up the presentation, make it interesting for the mainstream not the hardcore and then maybe you can move forward again. Good luck Justin.

I think your correct on some of your points for sure. One way around this is to take away the chat option all together and if people want to chat they can do it on a different page away from the site who is streaming it or have a very strong moderated chat that does not play favorites.

I do my best to keep things clean but if I am playing and not near the mics with my crew of just moi things can happen. If I find out someone was on the mic and acting stupid or whatever I let them know and tell them to stay away, in the chat I will try and have 3-4 mods and then I will go on the chat after being away and see stuff I would not allow. I am not in the same boat as others like Justin and am not going out looking for all types of big time sponsors but the ones I have I appreciate and believe most fans want good clean fun and a night of pool without all the other stuff.

I thought about removing the chat from my show but I enjoy the interaction with the regulars who stop by and it would take away something, to me that is what makes it better then watching pool on TV even if it were live, the interaction of the fans. I think at the high level of pool with pro matches, big sponsors the commentary should be more about the match and less about the chat but its all up to who is running the show with how they want things done.