Biggest Gambler Busted By Casino

[cleary]

I will be sure to show your post to the guy who got arrested *and* charged for thrownig dice.

Just to clarify for him your thoughts. :smile:

Do you know of any articles about this? I'd love to see it. It sounds outrageous and I'd imagine any lawyer would be able to win that case. I'm sure it could get you taken out back or thrown out of a casino, like counting cards. But just like counting cards, it's perfectly legal.

 

[CreeDo]

Quick question - I was wondering if any of the math so far has been very realistic,
claiming one can turn $50 into $40,000,000.

One person suggests you can just double up your $50 twenty times until you're at 40 mil.
Like flipping and landing heads 20 times in a row.

But there's the house edge... say your odds are 49% of doubling up, not 50%. I imagine this has a big effect.
also do casinos let you bet 20 million and double it to 50?
Googling around I saw some massive bets in the hundreds of thousands, but not in the millions.
If you were forced to bet a max of 1 million at a time and needed to flip heads, say, 30 times, the already-terrible
odds are even worse.

 

[jay helfert]

Staking somone at craps. Funny.

Archie could light 'em up like no one I've ever seen. He was faster than any dealer as well and knew right away how much he had coming! Believe it or not, Keith is a great dice player, right there with Archie, other than when it comes to throwing the dice (Archie was THE MASTER here!). Keith has made some monster scores on the dice table, and I mean MONSTER!

 

[raise1]

Staking somone at craps. Funny.

Not funny at all.

A few years back, I started with $200. When I crapped out, I cashed out over $10k. Had it been Archie in my spot, it would have easily been mid 6 digits cashout.

So yes, it's not a bad idea to stake someone like Archie with a few hundred dollars bankroll. There's no telling what he can do when he gets hot. But he is banned from almost all casinos in Vegas, and I suspect for this very same reason: They can only win a few hundreds from him, but if he gets hot, they stand to lose 5-6 digits or more. Even though the Math odds is in the casinos' favor, but the "money" odds is horrible for them.

 

[raise1]

Quick question - I was wondering if any of the math so far has been very realistic,
claiming one can turn $50 into $40,000,000.

One person suggests you can just double up your $50 twenty times until you're at 40 mil.
Like flipping and landing heads 20 times in a row.

But there's the house edge... say your odds are 49% of doubling up, not 50%. I imagine this has a big effect.
also do casinos let you bet 20 million and double it to 50?
Googling around I saw some massive bets in the hundreds of thousands, but not in the millions.
If you were forced to bet a max of 1 million at a time and needed to flip heads, say, 30 times, the already-terrible
odds are even worse.

I can tell you from my personal experience. I played Baccarat at the Rio this past BCAPL. The "Banker" won 16 hands out of 18, the other 2 hands were pushed. I got busted and left, so I didn't know what continued to happen after that. That is from someone who rarely play Baccarat. The point is variance in the short term is very powerful. It wouldn't surprise me if "tails" or "heads" landed 16 times in a row in a coin flip, on the square.

Also, craps is a much different game. It's not a coin-flip, even money kind of game. You have many different ways to bet and to win, some with much bigger payouts.

A lot of casinos will lift the "Maximum" limits, if you can bet it. The house knows that the odds will eventually catches up with you, as evidenced by Archie went busted.

 

[jay helfert]

Quick question - I was wondering if any of the math so far has been very realistic,
claiming one can turn $50 into $40,000,000.

One person suggests you can just double up your $50 twenty times until you're at 40 mil.
Like flipping and landing heads 20 times in a row.

But there's the house edge... say your odds are 49% of doubling up, not 50%. I imagine this has a big effect.
also do casinos let you bet 20 million and double it to 50?
Googling around I saw some massive bets in the hundreds of thousands, but not in the millions.
If you were forced to bet a max of 1 million at a time and needed to flip heads, say, 30 times, the already-terrible
odds are even worse.

Many times Archie had 10K on all the numbers with 100K odds behind! That's $660,000 on the table in play at one time. If you hit a few numbers there, you've just won over a million! Archie did that several times until he beat the Horseshoe for ALL their $5,000 dollar chips (ten million total!). He had them all in his lock box and Jack Binion had to start buying them back from him, a little at a time.

 

[Toncam]

Do you know of any articles about this? I'd love to see it. It sounds outrageous and I'd imagine any lawyer would be able to win that case. I'm sure it could get you taken out back or thrown out of a casino, like counting cards. But just like counting cards, it's perfectly legal.

The guy in all probability was sliding one die, and its illegal and you can be charged with a crime, its beatable of course, but its the hassle they want to put you through.
When i remember i have a story about this same type situation, i will post it for you.

 

[Toncam]

Dice sliders arrest

Hey Cleary, this is one of the storys on these folks who got popped for sliding dice.



Couple Accused of Cheating Wynn Las Vegas Out of $700,000
Todd Jacobs, Yahoo Contributor Network
Oct 1, 2011 "Share your voice on Yahoo websites. Start Here."
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The Nevada Gaming Control Board recently ordered the arrests of two Argentine nationals. The two reportedly cheated the Wynn Las Vegas out of $700,000. The Wynn has filed a lawsuit in Clark County District Court according to the Las Vegas Review Journal story appearing today.

News of the incident was recently released by Gaming Control but the incident is still on the docket as an open case with the Clark County District Court. The suspects involvement in a scam involving the Wynn's dice games under investigation by the Las Vegas District Attorney but there are no charges filed as of yet.

Leonardo Fernandez and Veronica Dabu, both citizens of Argentina, reportedly used the cheating technique known as "dice sliding." The technique, used on a craps table, takes advantage of one of the dice landing with the number six facing up. This creates betting opportunities for the players who are in on the scam.

A dice game normally features three dealers. One stickman, who retrieves the dice and sends them out to the shooter. The stickman is responsible for watching the dice at all times including, the flight of the dice and making the call. The other two dealers stand opposite the stickman in positions called second base and third base or just bases.

Before casinos began cutting back on management labor, there was also a casino management employee sitting down in front of the bank of chips, named the boxman. The boxman was responsible for depositing money, watching dealers to make sure they are not stealing or strong arming tips from the players and most importantly, a boxman is responsible for watching to make sure players are not cheating.

The boxman position has vanished from most casinos and this has led to an increase in attempts to cheat the casinos. The cheating technique known as dice sliding is not common but it can be stopped if the right personnel are on the game.

Anyone who has ever gambled on a craps table knows the first rule of throwing the dice, hit the back wall of the craps table. This has led to questions about the dealers on the dice crew. Under busy circumstances on a high stakes game it is tough to suspect one player, especially a female, of dice sliding. The practice is so uncommon some dealers have never witnessed the practice live.

Another consideration in this arrest is the Wynn's long time practice of assigning dealers to the same game every day they work. This does not mean there was collusion in this case but the possibility for collusion looms large under these circumstances.

The key to this incident is surveillance and lack of management presence. Surveillance was obviously keyed in to the subjects on their last appearance at the tables before their apprehension. On July 17 the couple won $145,000 on seven slides and that is when the couple came under suspicion and were subsequently arrested.

Todd Jacobs is a Las Vegas resident with extensive knowledge and contacts in the city and surrounding areas of Nevada. To contact Todd with a potential news story about Las Vegas or Nevada email him or direct message him on Twitter @LVIIToddJacobs.

 

[Celtic]

It was the sliding dice method of throwing them. I couldn't do it, but it is a technique that will allow one of the two dice to have the number the thrower keeps on top before throwing. In other words, if I kept the number 6 on top and threw the two dice I would be assured that the numbers that came out at the other end would be 7 through 12. The one dice with the 6 number on top would slide across the craps table and the second dice would bounce normally. So when they stop in their motion, the total will be 7 (6 plus 1), 8 (6 plus 2), 9 (6 plus 3), et cetera, on up to 12 (6 plus 6).

This may be helpful to someone who is betting with odds on what numbers will come out. In other words, Snake Eyes through 6 will not be coming out when the dice thrower throws the dice with the sliding method, if they are successful.

I can't imagine it's a perfect science each throw, but maybe I'm wrong.

That would certainly be effective but I have played craps a few times in my life and the first time you tried to throw a roll like that you would be warned about it, the second time you did it they would tell you that your days of playing craps in their casino have come to an end. It is very similar to counting cards, it is not illegal to do it, they cannot charge you with any kind of crime, but as private property a casino can certainly tell a person to hit the bricks or at the very least tell them that they are no longer allowed to play a certain game in their casino.

You would be lucky as hell to slide a die 3 times in a row before you got kicked out. The only way you could even hope to make that work in making some money would be waltzing up and on your first throw bet huge and do it and then expect to get paid before they have a chance to punt you. If a person walked up to a craps table, bet $1000 on a number, slid the dice and hit their number, well then I could only imagine the casino would be pissed. BUT I am not sure they would truly have any legal recourse.

Ultimately this person you talk about Jam, I am guessing they eventually were released without any charges. Did they get paid?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Allen Hopkins and I were sitting in the club house and in walks Joe Pesci

It was Bobby Baldwin he beat.

Yeah, Steve is legally blind, but Bobby plays fairly well. I was around him a few days back when he was President of the Mirage/Treasure Island when the Challenge of Champions was held there. We all got to play the SHADOW CREEK Golf Course that Steve owns....he spent 60 Million on the course, it had trees, sand and vegetation for 18 different countries.

After the round Allen Hopkins and I were sitting in the club house and in walks Joe Pesci

...he sat down and talked with us for 45 minutes, Allen knew a lot of the same people Joe did in New Jersey and hung around the same pool room at one time years ago.

That was a serele experience, Joe was making the movie CASINO at the time there in Las Vegas.

 

[Toncam]

After the round Allen Hopkins and I were sitting in the club house and in walks Joe Pesci ..he sat down and talked with us for 45 minutes, Allen knew a lot of the same people Joe did in New Jersey and hung around the same pool room at one time years ago.

That was a serele experience, Joe was making the movie CASINO at the time there in Las Vegas.

Funny you should say this, i was sitting in Vesuvios, i think that was the name of it or Villa di something, on Desert Inn road. It was owned by this Joe Pignatello out of Chicago and had good food. Anyway, sitting at the table next to us was Pesci and i didnt realise how short he was, lol. This was also during the filming of Casino, probably in 94 i think or early 95. Seemed like a nice guy and was friendly to everyone.

 

[smashmouth]

I don't know whether Archie was cheating or not, but it is STATISTICALLY very, very possible to turn $40 into 40m with him. One must have a gambler's mind set, and done some heavy gamblings, to understand that it can happen with Archie.

statistically it remains unlikely for anybody, that's what the odds would suggest

I believe what you're suggesting is that he is more likely than most

I wouldn't be surprised if cheating was involved, I've read about cases where casinos were scammed in all sorts of manner by ingenious cheats

the fact that he supposedly beat stu ungar makes me chuckle as I always suspected something fishy about stu's wins

 

[jay helfert]

statistically it remains unlikely for anybody, that's what the odds would suggest

I believe what you're suggesting is that he is more likely than most

I wouldn't be surprised if cheating was involved, I've read about cases where casinos were scammed in all sorts of manner by ingenious cheats

the fact that he supposedly beat stu ungar makes me chuckle as I always suspected something fishy about stu's wins

Nobody could beat Archie playing Heads-Up Seven Card Stud. And I mean NOBODY! He took them on from Chan to Reese to Brunson and they all went down. I watched him play Chip Reese four and eight thousand ($4-8,000) Stud on a back table at the Horseshoe many years ago. Archie won about 300K that day.

I just saw Archie in Vegas at the World Series. He is out of jail now, having served his time (less than a year) and back in action. I'm heading back for the Main Event in two weeks, trying to hit the lottery! :wink:

 

[CJ Wiley]

hearing him and Allen Hopkins talk about some of the same people in New Jersey.

It's a small world, this would have been at the very same time period. Joe was extremely friendly and personable....it was really cool hearing him and Allen Hopkins talk about some of the same people in New Jersey.....besides my experience with Jack Nicklaus this was one of the most serele and unexpected experiences I've had.

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
After the round Allen Hopkins and I were sitting in the club house and in walks Joe Pesci ..he sat down and talked with us for 45 minutes, Allen knew a lot of the same people Joe did in New Jersey and hung around the same pool room at one time years ago.

That was a serele experience, Joe was making the movie CASINO at the time there in Las Vegas.

Funny you should say this, i was sitting in Vesuvios, i think that was the name of it or Villa di something, on Desert Inn road. It was owned by this Joe Pignatello out of Chicago and had good food. Anyway, sitting at the table next to us was Pesci and i didnt realise how short he was, lol. This was also during the filming of Casino, probably in 94 i think or early 95. Seemed like a nice guy and was friendly to everyone.

 

[nick serdula]

Statistics don't count

Cheating for all you people trying to figure out how anyone can statisticly do anything is statisticly how you win every time. Palming dice. Making dice disappear that you palm. Smearing cards. Mirrors. Team movers. Swapping hands. Pat hands.Magic. Statics? Oh yes there are statistics.
You loose. They win. I thought my Dad was the only professional gamble that never busted. But it appears there were others. When he was caught on camera they showed him what he was going to jail for. He said me? What about this guy. And your dealer there. And look here. They were floored. Offered him a floor boss job and thanked him for the insights. Never charged him. He turned down the very high paying job. Didn't need the money.
There is usually a reason winners win at gambling. Statistics?
No way.
Nick Serdula

 

[logical]

Surreal is the word you guys are looking for.

 

[smashmouth]

Cheating for all you people trying to figure out how anyone can statisticly do anything is statisticly how you win every time. Palming dice. Making dice disappear that you palm. Smearing cards. Mirrors. Team movers. Swapping hands. Pat hands.Magic. Statics? Oh yes there are statistics.
You loose. They win. I thought my Dad was the only professional gamble that never busted. But it appears there were others. When he was caught on camera they showed him what he was going to jail for. He said me? What about this guy. And your dealer there. And look here. They were floored. Offered him a floor boss job and thanked him for the insights. Never charged him. He turned down the very high paying job. Didn't need the money.
There is usually a reason winners win at gambling. Statistics?
No way.
Nick Serdula

now THAT.....is an interesting viewpoint

 

[GreenFeltguy]

I busted Archie too

In my book, The Green Felt Jungle, great story of how I busted Archienin a Baton Rouge Pool Room, he challenged me to a million dollar rematch but backed out when I had my lawyer draw up the contract. Nice guy, fairly good pool player.

 

[vagabond]

He has been out of jail on Bail.