biggest improvement in pool equipment

[ghost ball]

Only if they plan on living on the road year after year:thumbup: and Brunswick, like Raquel Welch was once in their prime

10-4, eventually settling down is recommended. But for the young and adventurous, it may be a career path...but, only if they do it well..

Ah Raquel Welch, top notch. Perhaps surpassed, but nonetheless top notch. Too bad pool tables have a much longer shelf life than women. :grin-square: Too early to tell if a new queen is wearing a diamond crown.

 

[jasonlaus]

I don't think there's anyone in this county with enough passion, or dumb enough to walk in Marks or my foot steps and take over rebuilding or refinishing pool tables to the level that we do. I've traveled all over this country, been to every major city there is, and seen the work done by so many table mechanics it's a joke. Yes, while there are some that can install the cloth pretty good, especially since I had a part in making the Simonis cloth installers DVDs, and it has shown a lot of installers my tricks of the trade which has greatly improved their skills installing cloth, the total rebuilding of pool tables is a dead art for the most part because it takes to much time for most to even try. The world of pool table mechanic's has never been about raising the dead, it's always been about making that money daily and don't take to long to make it because it'll slow down getting to the next job that pays. Cues, chalk, cloth, balls, racks, tips, and even pool tables have gotten better and better, and they all had to get better today if they want to stay afloat, competition is tuff, but it brings out the best. But Mark and I both agree, this entire industry has forgotten about what happens to all the pool tables out here once they've been sold to the customers. They don't care if the particle board backing on the slates won't hold staples anymore after about 5 cloth changes, they don't have to deal with the aftermath of that cheap way of attaching the bed cloth, the installers do. Table manufacturers for the most part, use the cheapest cushions too, and they KNOW they're going to go bad, some are even rock hard when the installers are setting up new pool tables, but they don't care...because they believe the.customers don't know shit about pool tables anyway, and they're right! And what's even more wrong, is that the installers don't really care either, just long as the job pays....and they can always get paid more if they have to come back and replace those dead ass cushions. Yet, there's still the knockers on AZ that would rather knock Diamond pool tables as junk pool tables, instead of giving them credit for being the only pool table manufacturer today that is putting 100% effort into making their.pool tables the best tables on the planet. Speaking from experience, Brunswick made a lot of design mistakes in their pool tables as well, the Cenntennials, Anniversaries, and Gold Crowns....all of them, are full of them...it's just that nobody really knows what to look for to see the mistakes, all they see is the assembled product. Cenntennials and Anniversaries had one of the worst rail to slate attachment designs I've ever had to fix, same as Mark....which is why when we rebuild rails...we don't put the same piss poor design back into the rails! Oh I know, how can I say that, they were the greatest pool tables ever built!!!! Well, let me just say that no matter how tight you bolted r he rails down to the slate....that never tightened the rails up for shit, all that ever did was pull the nut plate down to the slate...the rails were attached to the nut plates with WOOD SCREWS, which pulled out of the bottom of the rails ALL THE TIME, which in turn, left the rails loose...WOW! If only the market place knew as much about pool tables as Mark and I do, playing pool today might just be a much better world to play pool in!

Never said Diamond was junk, i just prefer playing on GC's. I actually considered a Diamond 10' but with my work and being in Baltimore area for a few years only I bought a brunswick arcade(now we're talking about a crappy way to bolt rails on). When i'm done here and have a "permanent" place i will either go with an Anniv. 10' or Diamond 10'. If it's the Anniv. the rails will go straight to Mark. If its Diamond - whoever they send.

Btw, I'm happy Diamond is raising the bar, and still putting money into pool. I would never buy a new Brunswick, but I'd consider buying a new diamond.
Maybe I just haven't played on them enough - you know, old habits and such.
Now get some sleep:thumbup:

 

[Colonel]

So if I'm understanding what you're saying, better players lost their skills against lesser players...because of the Diamond tables?

No you're not understanding correctly. Diamond tables have a lot of positive attributes, everything but their rails.

The speed of the rails on a Diamond give those without a stroke an ability to move the ball easily without a stroke & those that bank average or below average the ability to bank at a higher level because you can bend and tweak balls in a way that can't be done with super speed rails.

They made a significant number of great changes with their design that are improvements over a GC, but to me that's all negated by super ball rails. Imagine a Diamond that had rails like a GC, now that would be a table.

But as Diamond felt a need to mount unrealistic playing rails as compared to the standard established by Brunswick's super speed rails over a number of generations the improvements are diminished by the play of their rails leaving many still loving Gold Crowns far more. If I want to play pinball I'll go play pinball. If I want to play pool then I'll go find a Gold Crown.

 

[realkingcobra]

No you're not understanding correctly. Diamond tables have a lot of positive attributes, everything but their rails.

The speed of the rails on a Diamond give those without a stroke an ability to move the ball easily without a stroke & those that bank average or below average the ability to bank at a higher level because you can bend and tweak balls in a way that can't be done with super speed rails.

They made a significant number of great changes with their design that are improvements over a GC, but to me that's all negated by super ball rails. Imagine a Diamond that had rails like a GC, now that would be a table.

But as Diamond felt a need to mount unrealistic playing rails as compared to the standard established by Brunswick's super speed rails over a number of generations the improvements are diminished by the play of their rails leaving many still loving Gold Crowns far more. If I want to play pinball I'll go play pinball. If I want to play pool then I'll go find a Gold Crown.View attachment 399685

When was the last time you played on a newer Diamond 9ft, because the rails on them are no faster than the rails on a newer GC, same 4 1/2 times the length of the table, and 9 rails around. Watch the US Open, no springy rails there.

 

[caff3in3]

I don't think there's anyone in this county with enough passion, or dumb enough to walk in Marks or my foot steps and take over rebuilding or refinishing pool tables to the level that we do. I've traveled all over this country, been to every major city there is, and seen the work done by so many table mechanics it's a joke. Yes, while there are some that can install the cloth pretty good, especially since I had a part in making the Simonis cloth installers DVDs, and it has shown a lot of installers my tricks of the trade which has greatly improved their skills installing cloth, the total rebuilding of pool tables is a dead art for the most part because it takes to much time for most to even try. The world of pool table mechanic's has never been about raising the dead, it's always been about making that money daily and don't take to long to make it because it'll slow down getting to the next job that pays. Cues, chalk, cloth, balls, racks, tips, and even pool tables have gotten better and better, and they all had to get better today if they want to stay afloat, competition is tuff, but it brings out the best. But Mark and I both agree, this entire industry has forgotten about what happens to all the pool tables out here once they've been sold to the customers. They don't care if the particle board backing on the slates won't hold staples anymore after about 5 cloth changes, they don't have to deal with the aftermath of that cheap way of attaching the bed cloth, the installers do. Table manufacturers for the most part, use the cheapest cushions too, and they KNOW they're going to go bad, some are even rock hard when the installers are setting up new pool tables, but they don't care...because they believe the.customers don't know shit about pool tables anyway, and they're right! And what's even more wrong, is that the installers don't really care either, just long as the job pays....and they can always get paid more if they have to come back and replace those dead ass cushions. Yet, there's still the knockers on AZ that would rather knock Diamond pool tables as junk pool tables, instead of giving them credit for being the only pool table manufacturer today that is putting 100% effort into making their.pool tables the best tables on the planet. Speaking from experience, Brunswick made a lot of design mistakes in their pool tables as well, the Cenntennials, Anniversaries, and Gold Crowns....all of them, are full of them...it's just that nobody really knows what to look for to see the mistakes, all they see is the assembled product. Cenntennials and Anniversaries had one of the worst rail to slate attachment designs I've ever had to fix, same as Mark....which is why when we rebuild rails...we don't put the same piss poor design back into the rails! Oh I know, how can I say that, they were the greatest pool tables ever built!!!! Well, let me just say that no matter how tight you bolted r he rails down to the slate....that never tightened the rails up for shit, all that ever did was pull the nut plate down to the slate...the rails were attached to the nut plates with WOOD SCREWS, which pulled out of the bottom of the rails ALL THE TIME, which in turn, left the rails loose...WOW! If only the market place knew as much about pool tables as Mark and I do, playing pool today might just be a much better world to play pool in!

Curious what you use for attaching the rail bolts. I have decent knowledge of what Brunswick has used from the thread in talk to a table mechanic but not what diamond uses.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

 

[jburkm002]

If all types of tables were side by side. Everything installed perfectly and playing exactly as designed. Which tables would come up short, long and in the pocket, playing the same bank shots?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[realkingcobra]

If all types of tables were side by side. Everything installed perfectly and playing exactly as designed. Which tables would come up short, long and in the pocket, playing the same bank shots?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

That's hard to answer, as all tables don't share the same thickness sub rails, which effects how the cushion's respond, rail bolts have an effect, rail build material effect the banks....so, there's no way to answer your question.

 

[realkingcobra]

Curious what you use for attaching the rail bolts. I have decent knowledge of what Brunswick has used from the thread in talk to a table mechanic but not what diamond uses.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

They use a threaded insert, 1 1/4" long that threads into the rail, but the rails have to be drilled to fit, and on your rails, you'd first have to remove the floating anchors Brunswick used to mount the rails, then you'd need to plug the cavity in the rail that was made to mount the nut with poplar so there's no void in the rail when threading in the insert. But you'd also have to remove the cushion's to gain access to the floating nuts and install the poplar.

 

[caff3in3]

They use a threaded insert, 1 1/4" long that threads into the rail, but the rails have to be drilled to fit, and on your rails, you'd first have to remove the floating anchors Brunswick used to mount the rails, then you'd need to plug the cavity in the rail that was made to mount the nut with poplar so there's no void in the rail when threading in the insert. But you'd also have to remove the cushion's to gain access to the floating nuts and install the poplar.

Got it, thx.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Mr. Bond]

I pioneered the Simonis 760 cloth as a new pool cloth in the PNW back in 84' even though it was a snooker cloth, long before the first weave of 860 came out,

You invented 760?

That's odd, there's some kook working for Simonis who says that you didn't.
I believe his name his Ivan Lee. You might want to give him a call and set him straight huh Glen.

 

[Banks]

You invented 760?

That's odd, there's some kook working for Simonis who says that you didn't.
I believe his name his Ivan Lee. You might want to give him a call and set him straight huh Glen.

Sounds like he's saying it was a snooker cloth, but he helped bring it over to pool, not that he created it. Icbw.

 

[Runner]

Doing rails

No you're not understanding correctly. Diamond tables have a lot of positive attributes, everything but their rails.

The speed of the rails on a Diamond give those without a stroke an ability to move the ball easily without a stroke & those that bank average or below average the ability to bank at a higher level because you can bend and tweak balls in a way that can't be done with super speed rails.

They made a significant number of great changes with their design that are improvements over a GC, but to me that's all negated by super ball rails. Imagine a Diamond that had rails like a GC, now that would be a table.

But as Diamond felt a need to mount unrealistic playing rails as compared to the standard established by Brunswick's super speed rails over a number of generations the improvements are diminished by the play of their rails leaving many still loving Gold Crowns far more. If I want to play pinball I'll go play pinball. If I want to play pool then I'll go find a Gold Crown.View attachment 399685

^^This^^

I mentioned Diamonds before... the place I play had ONE Diamond 9 footer installed
in place of a GC III (all the other tables are GC's)... NOBODY liked the rails at all on that Diamond, especially the One Pocket players. Trying to lag a ball back to your hole, the ball comes up way too far, leaving a cross bank. Super ball rails, indeed.
They took out the Diamond, guess what replaced it?... GC III. Proper.

And agreed about jump cues.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Sounds like he's saying it was a snooker cloth, but he helped bring it over to pool, not that he created it. Icbw.

You may very well be right sir, I'm just playing with Mr. Hancock's propensity to dramatize things a bit. He's a godammed pioneer don't ya know lol. And we're all doomed without him!
Sorry Glen but yes there are master carpenters all over the country and yes it's true that manufacturers don't give a rat's ass about the longevity of their products. We will still live on in happiness. You can relax bro.

 

[realkingcobra]

You invented 760?

That's odd, there's some kook working for Simonis who says that you didn't.
I believe his name his Ivan Lee. You might want to give him a call and set him straight huh Glen.

Did I say I invented 760? What I said was I pioneered the cloth in the bar table industry in the PNW, and to set the record straight, Ivan wasn't even a thought at the time for working at Simonis, Bob and Hank was who I was buying the Simonis through...the owners of Simonis, North America.

 

[Mr. Bond]

As a matter of record, every player alive today, and everyone in the industry, including Diamond, owes a debt of gratitude to Brunswick.

 

[realkingcobra]

^^This^^

I mentioned Diamonds before... the place I play had ONE Diamond 9 footer installed
in place of a GC III (all the other tables are GC's)... NOBODY liked the rails at all on that Diamond, especially the One Pocket players. Trying to lag a ball back to your hole, the ball comes up way too far, leaving a cross bank. Super ball rails, indeed.
They took out the Diamond, guess what replaced it?... GC III. Proper.

And agreed about jump cues.

If it was a new Diamond today, they might very well be replacing the GCs' with all new Diamonds:thumbup:

 

[realkingcobra]

You invented 760?

That's odd, there's some kook working for Simonis who says that you didn't.
I believe his name his Ivan Lee. You might want to give him a call and set him straight huh Glen.

The second worsted woolen cloth to hit the PNW was Granite Basalt 2000. I pioneered that cloth as well, but soon gave up on using it because it fell apart in the ghost rack area of the cloth developing 5 cross table cuts in the cloth which only got bigger and bigger unless the cloth was replaced right away.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Did I say I invented 760? What I said was I pioneered the cloth in the bar table industry in the PNW, and to set the record straight, Ivan wasn't even a thought at the time for working at Simonis, Bob and Hank was who I was buying the Simonis through...the owners of Simonis, North America.

Please tell me about the 760.
What is the thread/pick count ?
What weave pattern is used?
How does that weave differ from broadcloth or directional?
What species of wool is used?

 

[realkingcobra]

As a matter of record, every player alive today, and everyone in the industry, including Diamond, owes a debt of gratitude to Brunswick.

That's assuming Brunswick invented the game of billiards, in which they didn't, they just built the tables better....so who do they owe gratitude to?

 

[realkingcobra]

Please tell me about the 760.
What is the thread/pick count ?
What weave pattern is used?
How does that weave differ from broadcloth or directional?
What species of wool is used?

177 thread count per square inch, now what's that got to do with picking your nose? What's the stretch index difference between Green 860HR and Blue 860HR, and why does blue 860 stretch more than green 860? The knowledge of that is more important than knowing the make up of the cloth, which is what installers deal with, and what players have to deal with if the cloth is not installed correctly....wouldn't you agree...MR. Bond?