Billiard University (BU) playing-ability-exam scores and ratings

[SpiderWebComm]

You must be cooler than I thought your were.

You obviously didn't watch any of the introductory videos, and didn't visit the BU website, and didn't read any of the documentation. I recommend you start with the overview videos:
BU Exam-I Overview - demonstrations and scoring of the Fundamentals Exam
BU Exam II Overview - demonstrations and scoring of the Skills Exam

Then you can look at the exam documents that contain all of the shot diagrams and detailed instructions.


As was mentioned earlier in the thread, using the cushion on the "stop shot" drill is a smart and strategic approach that is allowed within the exam rules.

Again, you need to watch the videos and read the exam documents to understand what I was doing.

I would have enjoyed it also if it had worked better; but it's one thing to "know" and its another thing to "execute." I need to work on the "execute" part a little more.

Again, you need to watch the videos and read the documents to understand better.

I think the BU diplomas (Bachelors, Masters, and Doctorate of Pool) and the BU rating system do an excellent job of assessing a player's overall ability in a wide range of pool skills. I think a lower intermediate player will not score very high and probably won't be able to earn even a Bachelors of Pool without a lot of practice. I also think a top player will typically perform very well on the exams, especially if her or she has practiced the drills and has focus during the exams. Only a top player could earn a "Doctorate with Honors."


... because no previous tests/games/drills I've seen provide a complete, structured, well designed, and challenging pool workout you can use to develop and improve your game to reach the next level. I think the BU exams do this and I think the resulting BU rating is an accurate measure of overall pool-playing ability. Also, the diploma-granting feature of our system provides a good goal people can work toward and be proud of when they achieve it. Also, I think the BU exams are fun with the progressive nature and bonus-point feature of the exam scoring system.


... not yet, but this is definitely a future goal. My current diploma level is "Master of Pool with Honors."


Again, please do a little more research and try the exams before you judge any further. And please post your score (and videos if possible). Maybe you can become the first BU Doctorate of Pool. If you play as good as you talk, you are definitely capable of this.



I've been making videos for many years. You just haven't watched them all. Now it's your turn to post videos of the BU exams.

Catch you later,
Dave

Eh... not gonna invest the time into making a video for this test. If everyone wants to record 10 racks of Cue Skill, I'd be more into it.

I think your concept is good- the exam portion doesn't match what you're trying to do. You should probably have a skill test like this just to get a bachelor and have that outcome-based. Meaning, you get your bachelor with a score of X or more. After that, advanced degrees / levels be based on a Hopkins Cue Skill rating.

To build a degree concept on a skill test isn't the way to do it. If you want a rating that really defines how one plays, how one plays should equal run-out ability, not shot making.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I think run out tests are the best practice for running out. With a test like this, you're conditioning your brain to shoot 1 shot and disengage. With a run out test, you're conditioning your brain to stay engaged for a longer period of time. If all one does is practice shoot, disengage, mark scores and re-engage, you're gonna dog it mid-run in a real life situation. Just my opinion, of course.

I'll agree with this... But add that the runout itself won't teach you a shot you have a weakness on. THe runout will build your pattern selection choices, and nerves, and mental stability from shot to shot. But if you have a problem with a specific shot or position route, the individual drill will help that.

I used to only practice running out and gambling. Then I got Joe Tuckers book years ago and did many of the drills in it. For sure, when one of the shots comes up in a real game from the drills I instantly recognize it.

 

[BRussell]

I think run out tests are the best practice for running out. With a test like this, you're conditioning your brain to shoot 1 shot and disengage. With a run out test, you're conditioning your brain to stay engaged for a longer period of time. If all one does is practice shoot, disengage, mark scores and re-engage, you're gonna dog it mid-run in a real life situation. Just my opinion, of course.

If you look at athletic training programs of various kinds, they almost never just have the athletes play. They break down skills into their minimal parts and work on those repetitively. I bet most all pool instructors believe in the same approach.

It's certainly true that experiencing the pressure of keeping a run going is important, but I think you get that from experience in competition more than from practice.

 

[Fatboy]

one shot at a time, FWIW

 

[Neil]

Eh... not gonna invest the time into making a video for this test. If everyone wants to record 10 racks of Cue Skill, I'd be more into it.

I think your concept is good- the exam portion doesn't match what you're trying to do. You should probably have a skill test like this just to get a bachelor and have that outcome-based. Meaning, you get your bachelor with a score of X or more. After that, advanced degrees / levels be based on a Hopkins Cue Skill rating.

To build a degree concept on a skill test isn't the way to do it. If you want a rating that really defines how one plays, how one plays should equal run-out ability, not shot making.

Dave, are you even aware that there are several sections of running out different patterns? Granted, they aren't whole racks, but they will enlighten you on what the proper patterns for you are. And, what rating does just what you say? Everyone of them are dependent on your ability to break the balls apart properly. So, the whole test is defined by the first shot.

I'll guarantee you that if you take this test, you will not do as well as you think you should have done. And that if you practice the routine, you will see your overall game come up much faster than just running racks out.

As far as Dr. Dave vs. me, yes, I will beat him probably every time. If you look at our scores, at first glance, they seem not very far apart. Look at what those scores relate to, and then figure what you think the handicap should be from the final rating of each of us. I believe you will then have it pretty close to reality. I think the test gives a fairly accurate rating, give or take 5-10 points up or down on any given day. But, that won't be "known" until others are willing to give it a shot and report their results.

 

[Neil]

Dr Dave, I usually agree with most of what you do. However, the statement that (paraphrasing) "this is an excellent test to gage skill level", I do not agree with, yet. The reason being you have no data. You are hypothesizing its an excellent gage of skill. However, you have not tested this hypotheses yet.

I know from my personal experiences of keeping scores for lots of my drills, that they vary widely over time. A test that takes 1 or 2 hours to perform is a bit short to really gage someones's skill. It can definitely point you in the right direction, but I can very easily see the same player from 1 week to the next scoring completely differently, just due to probabilities. I know in my own data I see this a lot.

I might try this myself, but I'm in a lazy state right now, lol.

Btw, you need pool glasses. 100% sure about it from watching some of your shots. You don't know what you are missing unless you have a pair.

As far as having the data, don't discount the fact that a number of prominent instructors had a hand in this being what it is. I would say they have a lot of "data" to go off of.

 

[ScottK]

I just responded to your PM. Thank you for the interest.

Best regards,
Dave

PS: Where are you, and what is causing your power to be uncertain?

Just south of Chicago. Nothing serious, just thunderstorms and a tornado watch, but sometimes my power seems to go out at the drop of a hat. I only mentioned it so you wouldn't think I'd neglected to send the PM if, in fact, I did lose power.

 

[ScottK]

I'll agree with this... But add that the runout itself won't teach you a shot you have a weakness on. THe runout will build your pattern selection choices, and nerves, and mental stability from shot to shot. But if you have a problem with a specific shot or position route, the individual drill will help that.

I used to only practice running out and gambling. Then I got Joe Tuckers book years ago and did many of the drills in it. For sure, when one of the shots comes up in a real game from the drills I instantly recognize it.

And neither of them test your safety play...

A test in all three areas is needed to evaluate overall playing ability.
The Hopkins test is a good gauge of one's ability to run out, and the BU exam seems to be very valuable in testing specific shot making ability and indicating areas of weakness.
Who wants to develop the defensive playing ability test?

Also, Dr. Dave, why did you settle on 10 cut shots to the right only? Most people cut better to one side or the other (I'm sure Gene will pop in here), wouldn't the addition of a cut shot to the left be prudent?

And, did Spidey actually say Dr. Dave FINALLY made a video? I've seen so much video footage of Dave I thought he was a movie star.

 

[dr_dave]

I believe that the score for this test compared to one's actual playing ability will be a far greater gap than what the Hopkins Cue Skills provides as a rating method.

Have you looked at drills S1 through S4 in Exam II? They require good run-out skills to get high scores, especially in the Doctorate level of Exam II.

participated and also likely scored highly. I also know that Dr. Dave is a big underdog against you playing any game. Therefore, it's a weak test.

I am sure that if Neil had practiced more and did more attempts at the Exams, he would have gotten a higher score. Also, the pockets on my table are much "bigger" than on his. That's why table information is included with the official BU scores ... table information is important for context. Also, I would suspect that on a 9' table with tight pockets, Neil would score much higher than I could. That's one reason a table size of 9' or larger is required to achieve a Doctorate diploma ... to raise the challenge at the higher levels.

Have you tried the exams yet? What did you get for a total BU score? Does your BU rating agree with your perceived level of ability? Do you plan to post videos?

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I think run out tests are the best practice for running out.

That's why we have Exam II. Drills S1 through S4 test run-out skills. Also, many of the drills in both exams tests skills that are important in running out.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Dr Dave, I usually agree with most of what you do. However, the statement that (paraphrasing) "this is an excellent test to gage skill level", I do not agree with, yet. The reason being you have no data. You are hypothesizing its an excellent gage of skill. However, you have not tested this hypotheses yet.

Actually, I did do a fairly large number of tests with players over varying levels of playing ability. Several of the BU founding professors also did some tests. The BU ratings seemed to be appropriate for all the players we tested.

However, we do plan to tweak the scoring and rating system over time as necessary as more data comes in. On the last page of the diploma application form, we are collecting data to help us better correlate the BU scores and ratings to actual levels of play.

Also, I was hoping more AZB members would try the exams, post their scores, and comment on how well they think the scoring and rating system worked to characterize their level of play. Hopefully, some of you will do this. The more data and feedback we have, the better.

I know from my personal experiences of keeping scores for lots of my drills, that they vary widely over time. A test that takes 1 or 2 hours to perform is a bit short to really gage someones's skill.

I think that is common. That's why one should practice and keep records while working on the exams, and video record all of the attempts if a camera is available. That way, the person can submit their best performances for the official diploma application.

I might try this myself, but I'm in a lazy state right now, lol.

Are you telling me you have all of these opinions about the BU exams and rating system, and you haven't even tried the exams yet? I suspect you're not the only person in this category. Would it help if I asked nicer? Would you please try the exams ... pretty, pretty please?

Btw, you need pool glasses. 100% sure about it from watching some of your shots. You don't know what you are missing unless you have a pair.

The camera angles make it look worse than it actually is. My view of the OB is always well beneath the top rim, but I appreciate the advice. I've tried my contacts playing pool, and I don't like them. I've also thought about getting Lasik.

Thanks for your input and suggestions,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I'll guarantee you [Spidey] that if you take this test, you will not do as well as you think you should have done. And that if you practice the routine, you will see your overall game come up much faster than just running racks out.

This has certainly been the case with everyone I've tested and worked with. The practice before my personal video sessions definitely helped bring my game up a level.

Neil, thank you again for participating, and thank you for all of your replies in the thread. I appreciate your input and perspectives.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

As far as having the data, don't discount the fact that a number of prominent instructors had a hand in this being what it is. I would say they have a lot of "data" to go off of.

Well stated. The BU founding professors (see below) did provide lots of input and suggestions as Randy Russel and I were developing the exams, scoring system, and rating system. I certainly appreciated and respected their knowledge and experience. Tom Simpson, Mike Page, and Bob Jewett were especially helpful.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

The Hopkins test is a good gauge of one's ability to run out, and the BU exam seems to be very valuable in testing specific shot making ability and indicating areas of weakness.
Who wants to develop the defensive playing ability test?

Actually, drill S5 (Safety Drill) does assess defensive play. Obviously, a lot more could be done in this area, but the BU exams at least cover safety play to some extent (unlike other rating drills out there).

Also, Dr. Dave, why did you settle on 10 cut shots to the right only? Most people cut better to one side or the other (I'm sure Gene will pop in here), wouldn't the addition of a cut shot to the left be prudent?

Actually, if you read the instructions on page 1 of Exam I, you will see that the player is free to chose the side of the table they prefer. Although, this is not the case with the shot-making drill (F6). There, you are forced to shoot shots of various angles and distances from both sides of the table to help assess if the you favor one side vs. the other. People who don't have their cue under their "vision center" usually have trouble with one side of this drill.

And, did Spidey actually say Dr. Dave FINALLY made a video? I've seen so much video footage of Dave I thought he was a movie star.

Most of the video I have put out is edited. What Spidey wanted to see for a long time was unedited video with runouts (as in the BU Exam videos I posted). I guess he wanted proof that I don't make every shot the first time. Maybe now he can sleep at nights since the videos obviously show that I miss shots, sometimes easy ones.

Regards,
Dave

 

[JC]

I finally got home for a day yesterday and had the opportunity to run through all the drills. I looked at each one and practiced them quite a bit to make sure I understood what was expected before running a live scoring set.

A couple of observations. The stun drill in the fundamentals section seems to me to be out of whack. I believe it takes more skill to stun the ball into the box at position 3 with no rail than it is for 4, 5 and 6. BTW do you have to make the ball in the side for the shot to count as successful? I had trouble with all the position drills. Why does that rectangle look so big on other peoples videos and so small on my table? Kudos to you guys who can score 3 or 4 on the center table shot. That's a tough nut.

The kick shot test can easily be wired to memory of rail position to aim for. That's not really fair. No one should ever miss one of those once they practice them.

The jumping test should require a left and right swerve shot too, not make it optional. It's just too easy to jump and make a hanger with no consideration for position or scratch. Swerve shots are an imperative skill when you can't jump due to the rules or table layout.

I scored a low master score on a trial run test one (61) but was in a hurry (during my lunch break) and not filming. Didn't do the second test, ran out of time. Geez I missed both stun shots on the wagon wheel. There's no excuse not to hit the first 10 points in that drill. And scored a 3 on the draw drill! After routinely scoring tens practicing it. And a 2 on the stun drill! How lame! Will do better I have no doubt when I can slow down and film next trip home. This has really helped me understand what I need to work on. My table is a 9 foot GC3 with Diamondized pockets and rails built by Sundown Donny Wessels (SD billiards). 4 7/16 pockets with a 1.5 inch shelf.


JC

 

[ScottK]

Actually, drill S5 (Safety Drill) does assess defensive play. Obviously, a lot more could be done in this area, but the BU exams at least cover safety play to some extent (unlike other rating drills out there).

Actually, if you read the instructions on page 1 of Exam I, you will see that the player is free to chose the side of the table they prefer. Although, this is not the case with the shot-making drill (F6). There, you are forced to shoot shots of various angles and distances from both sides of the table to help assess if the you favor one side vs. the other. People who don't have their cue under their "vision center" usually have trouble with one side of this drill.

Most of the video I have put out is edited. What Spidey wanted to see for a long time was unedited video with runouts (as in the BU Exam videos I posted). I guess he wanted proof that I don't make every shot the first time. Maybe now he can sleep at nights since the videos obviously show that I miss shots, sometimes easy ones.

Regards,
Dave

I should have known you had it covered! I haven't read the instructions or reviewed Exam II. I had only watched your video and downloaded the shot diagrams. Glad to hear about the choice of cut direction as well as the inclusion of a defensive test.

As of now I've only made one rushed attempt at Exam I. Very rushed... like less than a half hour rushed. I'm looking forward to making a serious effort at both, though I doubt I'll be able to record it. Hopefully you can give me an official score in July.

 

[dr_dave]

A couple of observations. The stun drill in the fundamentals section seems to me to be out of whack. I believe it takes more skill to stun the ball into the box at position 3 with no rail than it is for 4, 5 and 6.

I agree completely that 3 is tougher than 4. The key is to not miss at 4, and to practice the shot at 3 if you think you might miss at 4.

BTW do you have to make the ball in the side for the shot to count as successful?

Yes. This is pretty clear in the instructions.

I had trouble with all the position drills.

Now you know what to spend more time on.

Why does that rectangle look so big on other peoples videos and so small on my table?

It gets bigger when you practice more.

Kudos to you guys who can score 3 or 4 on the center table shot. That's a tough nut.

Agreed. That is a good challenge and requires both precision and consistency with aim, speed, and tip position (The "Holy Trinity" of Pool).

The kick shot test can easily be wired to memory of rail position to aim for. That's not really fair. No one should ever miss one of those once they practice them.

I personally aim these shots every time and don't rely on pre-memorized points on the rails, but you make a good point ... it is possible to "cheat" on this drill.

The jumping test should require a left and right swerve shot too, not make it optional. It's just too easy to jump and make a hanger with no consideration for position or scratch. Swerve shots are an imperative skill when you can't jump due to the rules or table layout.

Jumping isn't easy for everybody, and swerving around a full ball accurately ain't easy for anybody. In the first version of the exam, we had a separate drill for swerve/masse shots, but the original exams were too long and needed to be trimmed. I still like the idea of offering swerve/masse as a option to jumping, but you make a good point ... small swerve shots can be useful and important in some situations.

BTW, the jumps are much tougher in the Doctorate level of the exam, so you have something to look forward to as you advance.

I scored a low master score on a trial run test one (61) but was in a hurry (during my lunch break) and not filming. Didn't do the second test, ran out of time. Geez I missed both stun shots on the wagon wheel. There's no excuse not to hit the first 10 points in that drill. And scored a 3 on the draw drill! After routinely scoring tens practicing it. And a 2 on the stun drill! How lame! Will do better I have no doubt when I can slow down and film next trip home. This has really helped me understand what I need to work on. My table is a 9 foot GC3 with Diamondized pockets and rails built by Sundown Donny Wessels (SD billiards). 4 7/16 pockets with a 1.5 inch shelf.

Please post your score after you do both exams so I can add you to the list at the top of the thread. Also, please let us know if your BU rating agrees with what you perceive as your level of play.

Thanks for the input,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I should have known you had it covered! I haven't read the instructions or reviewed Exam II. I had only watched your video and downloaded the shot diagrams. Glad to hear about the choice of cut direction as well as the inclusion of a defensive test.

Exam I covers only fundamentals. The three versions of Exam II (Bachelors, Masters, and Doctorate levels), which have increasing level of difficulty, cover more applied game skills (e.g.,various types of run-out patterns and challenges, jacked-up shots, safeties, kicks/banks/jumps, and the break). I think many people are just looking at Exam I, which is really just a fundamentals assessment and placement exam for the true test (Exam II).

As of now I've only made one rushed attempt at Exam I. Very rushed... like less than a half hour rushed. I'm looking forward to making a serious effort at both, though I doubt I'll be able to record it. Hopefully you can give me an official score in July.

I hope you and others decide to attend the BU Summer School Boot Camp. But even if you don't come and don't have access to a camera, please post your total score anyway when you get a chance. And please let us know whether or not you think your BU rating is an accurate measure of your actual level of play.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[Gerry Williams]

Updated Videos

Exam 1 (Score 80)
Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBS5D37-GhE
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBS5D37-GhE


Exam 2 (Doctorate) - Score 70
Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYz3TzoGzqE
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uYa8sEniDI
Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISjiTce7-Kc

Total Score = 80 + 70 = 150

On 9 foot Olhausen with 4.5 Inch pockets

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[CJ Wiley]

This is a really interesting point,

I believe that the score for this test compared to one's actual playing ability will be a far greater gap than what the Hopkins Cue Skills provides as a rating method.

Just because I think that someone CAN get a good score on this and not be a PH.D "playing wise" doesn't mean I believe that as a blanket statement for ALL those who participate.

For instance, it appeared as though Dr. Dave scored highly on this test and I know you participated and also likely scored highly. I also know that Dr. Dave is a big underdog against you playing any game. Therefore, it's a weak test.

If you play 10 racks of Cue Skills and so does Dr. Dave, the delta would be pretty big. Therefore, it's a stronger test.

This is a really interesting point, how did you score on the your exam, SpiderMan?