What is break and run percentages in 9 ball and 8 ball for
a world class player?
a pro?
a state class player? and
an A player?
a world class player?
a pro?
a state class player? and
an A player?
Break and Run Percentages
- Thread starter RunoutalloverU
- Start date
Are any of the IPT stats up on their web site anymore? I seem to remember that the top players were break and running around 33% in 8 ball. Tight pockets and slow cloth.
I'd hazard a guess that everyone's estimation of their 9 ball runout percentage is higher than it really is. I'd be surprised if the top pros could break and run more than 35% in actual tournament matches (over a several match span).
Table conditions and equipment could make for quite a swing in the percentages. For example, a pro player breaking and running repeatedly in practice on the same table with new cloth and a sardo tight rack might be able to get up over 50% in a couple of hours.
Andy
I'd hazard a guess that everyone's estimation of their 9 ball runout percentage is higher than it really is. I'd be surprised if the top pros could break and run more than 35% in actual tournament matches (over a several match span).
Table conditions and equipment could make for quite a swing in the percentages. For example, a pro player breaking and running repeatedly in practice on the same table with new cloth and a sardo tight rack might be able to get up over 50% in a couple of hours.
Andy
Great Britain 9-ball Tour's first ever tournament, started last season, with stats for Break & Run.
Imran Majid won, and had impressive 45 % B&R during the 7 matches of the tournament
Check out more stats on www.pro9.co.uk
Imran Majid won, and had impressive 45 % B&R during the 7 matches of the tournament
Check out more stats on www.pro9.co.uk
IIRC I read somewhere that top players average B&R's in 9ball about 20% of the time. I don't remember where I read that, it was a long time ago.
cuetechasaurus said:
I'll vouch for cuetechasaurus's number being accurate.
Although I don't have the exact match in which it was said, I remember on one of my Accu-Stats that one commentator asked the other to hazzard a guess on the percentage of time that a top pro actually breaks and runs out and I'm 100% certain the answer given was "no more than 25% of the time."
On something like this where specific numbers are mentioned, I would have loved to be able to cite which match it was but I have several hundred of them and I can't even remember who the commentators were.
Maybe jay helfert could chime in this discussion
Terry Ardeno said:
I will vouch for that from memory but also cannot recall the source. But there is another, more important stat which is Break and Win.
Top players when faced with a difficult pattern can play a few balls to a killer safety and stand an awfully good chance of winning even without a full run out.
And Bob Jewett recently cited an Accu-Stats statistic from years ago...when men were men and Sardo/tapped racks hand't been invented...the breaker actually lost slighly more games than he won.
That was likely a result (my guess) that the "break and run" frequency was about the same as "break and have no good shot."
Regards,
Jim
I have heard %30 mentioned a couple time. I recall Gabe Owen or Jeremy Jones saying he is about 30%. I also think Johnny Archer mention 30 something...
According to Accu-Stats the top break and run percentages in 9-ball across some of the tournaments for which Accu-Stats kept statistics on in the 90's was about 30%-33% for Earl Strickland and Johnny Archer, IIRC. As Johnnyt said a LOT depends on the playing conditions though.
My above thread was for 8-ball. With table conditions in favor of the player I'd say top players could RO as high as 40-43% in 8-ball.
For 9-ball with fast cloth, break from anywhere behind the line, and 4 1/2" pockets I would bet it's closer to 35-38% for the top tier men players. The 1990's was 10-18 years ago. Their are a LOT more good 9-ball players out their now. Johnnyt
For 9-ball with fast cloth, break from anywhere behind the line, and 4 1/2" pockets I would bet it's closer to 35-38% for the top tier men players. The 1990's was 10-18 years ago. Their are a LOT more good 9-ball players out their now. Johnnyt
av84fun said:
Jim,
Right you are also on the "breaker actually lost slightly more than they won" remark.
Who was it in the booth that said their match was hill-hill and even though it was their break, they offered the break to their opponant, who then declined? Can you remember who said that?
Research on break-and-runs
Phil Capelle has studied this question. His data, based on 500 recorded games of pro 9-ball and almost 200 games of pro 8-ball:
Pros break and run in 9-ball 28% of the time.
Pros break and run in 8-ball 44% of the time.
See http://www.billiardspress.com/perspective.html
RunoutalloverU said:
Phil Capelle has studied this question. His data, based on 500 recorded games of pro 9-ball and almost 200 games of pro 8-ball:
Pros break and run in 9-ball 28% of the time.
Pros break and run in 8-ball 44% of the time.
See http://www.billiardspress.com/perspective.html
the tables in holywood are so hard there wernt many BNR's in the Swanee tournment but Archer likes tight tables, i dont know why if I played like him I would like sloppy tables so I could run 9 and out to win sets before who I was playing could put ttogether their cue. he said he BNRer in the Swanee tournment over10% but nit 25% of the time, from the little I saw I would guess one out of 7 or 8 for him and perhaps 10% for the rest of the top players, but thaose tables have super tough pockets and old cloth so the balls dont slide in,
there are so many variables that there is no way to put a number on BNR % overall due to humidity level, age of cloth, sise of pocket, size of table, some tables break better than others. I have played on tables I almost never BNRed on and in the same day could go to a different pool room and BNR often.
there are so many variables that there is no way to put a number on BNR % overall due to humidity level, age of cloth, sise of pocket, size of table, some tables break better than others. I have played on tables I almost never BNRed on and in the same day could go to a different pool room and BNR often.
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Average Average Average for Pros...
Like the previous posters...I also have an accustat tape where Grady Mathews states that the AVERAGE PRO only breaks and runs out 25% of the time...the rest of the games the oppones always comes to the table for some kind of shot...
Unfortunately I also cannot recall which tape this is stated on...sorry...
Another note for you as well...also stated is the fact that at Hill / Hill... the person breaking the rack is not favored to win the match...seems to reason considering the break and run average...
Also,,,keep in mind that this Average is just that..an Average...I am sure the top pro's..(True World Class) break and run more ...and that being said, the lower pros break and run out less than 25% of the time they break a 9 ball rack...
thanks agian..
Mr. J.
Like the previous posters...I also have an accustat tape where Grady Mathews states that the AVERAGE PRO only breaks and runs out 25% of the time...the rest of the games the oppones always comes to the table for some kind of shot...
Unfortunately I also cannot recall which tape this is stated on...sorry...
Another note for you as well...also stated is the fact that at Hill / Hill... the person breaking the rack is not favored to win the match...seems to reason considering the break and run average...
Also,,,keep in mind that this Average is just that..an Average...I am sure the top pro's..(True World Class) break and run more ...and that being said, the lower pros break and run out less than 25% of the time they break a 9 ball rack...
thanks agian..
Mr. J.
Fatboy said:
Yeah they are super tight, I love to play on those tables, if the place wasn't in an area that had so much traffic to get to it Id play there a lot more often, plus I like the food.
Terry Ardeno said:
No, but I wish I could! Must have been a dry breaking table though. Under "typical" conditions, I can't imagine that happening.
Keep in mind that failing to break and run doesn't mean that the breaker is going to lose. He could play for 3 shots and a lock up safety for example.
On the other hand, it is well known that the player who pushes is a slight favorite to lose the rack so making a ball on the break means nothing if you don't end up with a makable shot on the next ball.
Regards,
Jim
Fatboy said:
THERE YOU GO FATBOY! I TOTALLY agree that wide pockets are a DECIDED advantage for the superior player.
Question for disbelievers...Do you want your opponent to NEVER MISS? And turn the coin over. The lesser player is going to miss anyway...tight or wide...so the top player wants his run out from that point to be as automatic as possible.
Show me a TOP player giving weight on wide pockets and winner breaks and he will need a BUCKET for his drool!
(-:
Jim
av84fun said:
I hate to disagree with you but I must. The larger the pockets, the closer my speed gets to the better player.
If we are playing alternate break (which I know you are a proponent of) all I need is for them to have a few unproductive breaks and me have a few good ones and I am in the hunt against a superior player.
Rubyron said:
I am just guessing here, but I would think that the truth lies somewhere in between.
If the pockets are too big, it makes it too easy for the weaker player to win games, assuming he gets to the table.
If they are too tight, the stronger player starts turning over the table more often than he normally would.
I think it's entirely likely that the optimum pocket size for a player like JA would be neither the tightest possible nor the loosest possible, but something medium tight.