Break Speed DISCUSSION

ENGLISH! said:
The science is E=MC^2. E is energy or in this case force. Which is what you r seeking, an increase in force. M is mass or in this case weight or cue weight. C is velocity or speed. In the formula the C or speed is squared or multiplied times itself. Therefore a slight increase in speed increases the force much more than a slight increase in mass or weight. I know you want to increase your speed. So we need to convert the equation to E divided by mass = C^2. Assuming you are doing everthing humanly possible with regard to technigue to maximize the force you can apply, the only other variable is mass or weight. Since the energy or force is constant so to speak, a reduction in weight should result in an increase in velocity or speed. In other words, try a lighter cue. You should be able to increase your cue speed with a lighter cue. The problem is not to go too light were the increase in speed is offset by the reduction in mass or weight. Experiment with it. It does not matter what someone else can do with your cue. It's about finding the cue that maximizes what you can due with it. Good luck! Sorry for long scientific explanantion but it is more credible than just saying 'try a lighter cue'.
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E=MC^2 only applies to conversion of matter into energy in a nuclear reaction. I guess if you hit the balls hard enough that they undergo nuclear fusion, it might come into play.
 
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dr_dave said:
You're not "full of it." Sorry to disappoint you. :grin-square:

FYI, for a lot more info on this topic, see:
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Drat! Outed for the science nerd that I am. :o

Great resource there, Dave! I especially liked the accelerometer graphs. Very revealing.

I'm curious, though. I see info on your site for acceleration, but no tables for typical cue tip speeds at impact for various shots. For example, I'd like to know exactly how fast the cue tip is traveling with an 18 oz. cue during the execution of a 20 MPH break. Do you have this info?
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I'm curious, though. I see info on your site for acceleration, but no tables for typical cue tip speeds at impact for various shots. For example, I'd like to know exactly how fast the cue tip is traveling with an 18 oz. cue during the execution of a 20 MPH break. Do you have this info?
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The math and physics details (for any cue weight and any tip offset from center) are here:

For an 18 oz cue, the CB speed is about 1.5X the cue speed at impact (for a near center-ball hit). Therefore, for a CB speed of 20 mph, a cue speed of about 13 mph (20 mph / 1.5) is required.

I hope this helps you sleep better tonight, :grin-square:
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
For an 18 oz cue, the CB speed is about 1.5X the cue speed at impact (for a near center-ball hit). Therefore, for a CB speed of 20 mph, a cue speed of about 13 mph (20 mph / 1.5) is required.

I hope this helps you sleep better tonight, :grin-square:
Dave
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That is assuming the construction of the cue (tip, ferrule, joint, and quality of the wood) is up to par to take the impact. Not many people have mentioned that yet.
 
dr_dave said:
For an 18 oz cue, the CB speed is about 1.5X the cue speed at impact (for a near center-ball hit). Therefore, for a CB speed of 20 mph, a cue speed of about 13 mph (20 mph / 1.5) is required.

I hope this helps you sleep better tonight, :grin-square:
Dave
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Not likely. I'll be up all night wondering how fast I have to get my 21 oz player to get the same break speed, or if I should go old school and break with a 25 oz stick.

It's a disease, I tell you. And I'll still suck just as bad in the morning.
 
Masayoshi said:
E=MC^2 only applies to conversion of matter into energy in a nuclear reaction. I guess if you hit the balls hard enough that they undergo nuclear fusion, it might come into play.
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I've conceded that I should not have used that formula. I did it because I thought more people would be familar with it. Everyone & their mother has bashed me for using it. So... the 2 formulas are basically the 'same' but Einstein wondered & interjected C^2, the speed of light^2 in the place for acelleration which is the rate of change in speed^2. His theory is that if a mass moved at that accelleration, the speed of light^2, it would convert from mass to E, energy. I have agreed & apologized for using the technicallly incorrect formual. Does anyone really understand how fast the speed of light times itself is? Does anyone really know how fextremely ar a mass would travel in just one second. My apologies again. I should have just said, 'try a lighter cue stick'.
 
naji said:
KMRUNOUT said:
I disagree on break shots, on break shot, the long follow through guarantees that your brain does not issue the command to stop forward motion until Cue tip hit the OB, if you do not follow through brain speed beat your arm speed and order your hand to stop half way and kill your momentum and cue delivery speed before the tip hits the CB.
I agree once tip hit CB it is gone, similar to Golf shot, why do the follow through!
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I think I've been hacked. That's not my quote.
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gunzby...This is a perfect description of the optimum break, imo. Great job! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

gunzby said:
My advice is to play the break like its a very tough shot. No body movement or weight shifting needed. This is the easiest way to be more accurate and accuracy translates into more energy going into the rack. I think you may be surprised at how much power you can generate with just arm movement while the rest of your body is a statue. .
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It is about speed and head ball contact...which is what I told you via PM. Making the head ball in the side pocket is not about using sidespin. Draw on the CB is what makes the CB bend to the long rail, to avoid the scratch in the corner...not sidespin. Sidespin alone has no significant influence on the directional path of the CB, until it hits a rail. If the CB has directional spin too (draw or follow), with english, it will bend...but it's not the sidespin making it happen. Now, ENGLISH...what was that disparaging remark you wanted to make?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

ENGLISH! said:
Full rack, same thing, spot ball in opposite side pocket. Hit the one or spot ball as though you are hitting it straight from the side pocket from which you are shooting near the rail @ 2nd. diamond. The cue has a tendancy to scratch in the corner. So, draw it to the side rail with low rail side english. Snapshot9 will probably confirm but Mr. Lee probably won't. He thinks it's all about speed.(I could make a diparaging comment but I won't) PS If spot ball misses down table (rack side) hit it a little more full. If it missses up table cut it a little more. PSS We called this the 'soft spot break' it works better on hall tables than coin. I measured a few coin tables & they were not exactly 2 to 1 lenght to width. That's probably why but it still is makable but harder to figure the adjustment.
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Surprise, surprise, surprise.

Tonight, I brought the BreakRak & radar to the pool room and set it up. I started breaking and managed to hit 17-18 mph fairly regularly when one of the other guys came in to check it out and was hitting 21 right off the bat. He watched me break and said my hand was too far back. I thought my hand was already too far foward. In a very short space of time I could command 19+ on virtually every break. I even hit a 22+ once. :D

I am using some of the other suggestions and it seems to be helping.

I even had a very good player tell me that I would do better if I stayed down rather than move my body forward and upward.:wink: (He just doesn't have my resources.) :grin:

Going from 15 to 19 consistently is a 30% increase. Pretty substantial increase in less than a week's time. The BreakRak with the radar is a big help and so have the rest of you been. Thanks for your help. It is sincerely appreciated.

I hit 20+ on many occasions as well but called it a night after about an hour workout. I feel myself becoming more coordinated and feel less awkward. I am kind of excited about the progress so far and actually believe I will be increasing my speed even further. I know that right now I still don't have the coordination fine-tuned but it is getting better and more good news is soon to come. I will probably only work out with the BreakRak every few days, just to make sure I don't accidentally pull a muscle.
 
naji said:
Check these women break, it looks really fast! makes you wonder?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWtJThj-JeA&feature=related
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I think physical size, strength, degree of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscle, etc. are all overrated. The coordination/timing of the stroke are what matters most. This can be learned.

I used to be a licensed fly fishing guide many years ago. I taught many folks how to cast long distances. I have topped 100' from the casting deck in my younger days, which is pretty durn good, maybe top 5% of fly fishers.

Now, I weigh 275 and am built like a small bull. In order to get those distances, I have to use every bit of muscle I own, right down to my toe muscles. I also use the latest, high-tech graphite composite rods with the most sophisticated computer-designed tapers.

Well, way back in the 1960's, a little lady named Joan Salvato cast a fly line 161 feet - over once and a half farther than my best ever cast. She stood about 5' 4", and weighed about 100 pounds. She had very little muscle mass, and she didn't use explosive energy like most of today's top men's casters do. She used relaxation and flawless timing to propel that line out there. And she did it with a rod that would be considered antiquated to today's top distance casters.

Here's Joan (now Joan Wulff) last year, giving a casting demo at the age of 84. She still has that exquisite timing, and I'll best she can still smoke me at the casting pool. I get by with brute force, Joan does it with finesse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3yLT_gJLqM
 
Sloppy Pockets...Great post, and imo it can be directly translated to the pool discussion here, not just about the break, but about the stroke in general!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Sloppy Pockets said:
I think physical size, strength, degree of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscle, etc. are all overrated. The coordination/timing of the stroke are what matters most. This can be learned.

I used to be a licensed fly fishing guide many years ago. I taught many folks how to cast long distances. I have topped 100' from the casting deck in my younger days, which is pretty durn good, maybe top 5% of fly fishers.

Now, I weigh 275 and am built like a small bull. In order to get those distances, I have to use every bit of muscle I own, right down to my toe muscles. I also use the latest, high-tech graphite composite rods with the most sophisticated computer-designed tapers.

Well, way back in the 1960's, a little lady named Joan Salvato cast a fly line 161 feet - over once and a half farther than my best ever cast. She stood about 5' 4", and weighed about 100 pounds. She had very little muscle mass, and she didn't use explosive energy like most of today's top men's casters do. She used relaxation and flawless timing to propel that line out there. And she did it with a rod that would be considered antiquated to today's top distance casters.

Here's Joan (now Joan Wulff) last year, giving a casting demo at the age of 84. She still has that exquisite timing, and I'll best she can still smoke me at the casting pool. I get by with brute force, Joan does it with finesse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3yLT_gJLqM
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
Sloppy Pockets...Great post, and imo it can be directly translated to the pool discussion here, not just about the break, but about the stroke in general!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Sloppy Pockets said:
I think physical size, strength, degree of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscle, etc. are all overrated. The coordination/timing of the stroke are what matters most. This can be learned.

I used to be a licensed fly fishing guide many years ago. I taught many folks how to cast long distances. I have topped 100' from the casting deck in my younger days, which is pretty durn good, maybe top 5% of fly fishers.

Now, I weigh 275 and am built like a small bull. In order to get those distances, I have to use every bit of muscle I own, right down to my toe muscles. I also use the latest, high-tech graphite composite rods with the most sophisticated computer-designed tapers.

Well, way back in the 1960's, a little lady named Joan Salvato cast a fly line 161 feet - over once and a half farther than my best ever cast. She stood about 5' 4", and weighed about 100 pounds. She had very little muscle mass, and she didn't use explosive energy like most of today's top men's casters do. She used relaxation and flawless timing to propel that line out there. And she did it with a rod that would be considered antiquated to today's top distance casters.

Here's Joan (now Joan Wulff) last year, giving a casting demo at the age of 84. She still has that exquisite timing, and I'll best she can still smoke me at the casting pool. I get by with brute force, Joan does it with finesse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3yLT_gJLqM
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I see what he's getting at here but I don't think the analogy quite fits in this case.

I think it's a lot closer in comparison to generating club head speed in golf or swing speed with a baseball bat... I don't presume to know anything about fly fishing but what she is doing seems to be more dependent on rhythm of movement and fluidity of her motions than merely being able to swing the crap out of the rod to make the line go farther, while the break in pool all comes down to being able to swing the cue faster. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure she doesn't swing that rod faster than most of the guys she's outcasting... she just has such a perfect motion that the shape and flow of her line does all the work for her. Please forgive my ignorance of fly fishing terminology.

I agree that technique and knowledge will absolutely enable you to break faster to a degree but I'm pretty sure most of the pros that can break 30+ will tell you that they've just always been able to hit them hard and it's not something they put a lot of thought into...

Do you get where I'm coming from Scott?
 
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I do! That said, those pros who CAN break at 30+mph DON'T in competition. Last year at the US Open in VA none of the pros were breaking anywhere near that speed. They had figured out that the tables were not giving up balls on the break at super high speed, and adjusted accordingly. BTW...golf swing is a good analogy...baseball swing not so much. BB is about strength, not just speed and timing. Golf and pool swings are about clubhead/cuestick speed and perfect timing for optimum results, and lots of strength isn't required. JMO I should have just quoted the first paragraph, as that's the part I liked the best.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

branpureza said:
I see what he's getting at here but I don't think the analogy quite fits in this case.

I think it's a lot closer in comparison to generating club head speed in golf or swing speed with a baseball bat... I don't presume to know anything about fly fishing but what she is doing seems to be more dependent on rhythm of movement and fluidity of her motions than merely being able to swing the crap out of the rod to make the line go farther, while the break in pool all comes down to being able to swing the cue faster. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure she doesn't swing that rod faster than most of the guys she's outcasting... she just has such a perfect motion that the shape and flow of her line does all the work for her. Please forgive my ignorance of fly fishing terminology.

I agree that technique and knowledge will absolutely enable you to break faster to a degree but I'm pretty sure most of the pros that can break 30+ will tell you that they've just always been able to hit them hard and it's not something they put a lot of thought into...

Do you get where I'm coming from Scott?
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branpureza said:
I see what he's getting at here but I don't think the analogy quite fits in this case.
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Actually it fits quite well. No matter your body size, it's all about your balance and tempo. You can brute force a swing and only get so much power/distance/energy, but if you use all the proper lever/pendulum effects, you will use less brute force to hit something just as hard. Think of a catapult versus a trebuchet. Both are doing the same thing, hurling something over a distance. The problem is, a catapult is brute forcing the hurling by using just a spring effect, while the trebuchet is using a pivot to rotate mass. It's the equivalent of using just your elbow and shoulder to break, versus using your waist, wrist, elbow, and shoulder in proper unison to break. One requires a lot of expense of energy to achieve a satisfactory result, the other has more moving parts, but once tuned, requires less expense of energy to achieve the same result.


Scott Lee said:
BB is about strength, not just speed and timing.
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Care to tell that to Ken Griffy Jr?
 
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Scott Lee said:
I do! That said, those pros who CAN break at 30+mph DON'T in competition. Last year at the US Open in VA none of the pros were breaking anywhere near that speed. They had figured out that the tables were not giving up balls on the break at super high speed, and adjusted accordingly. BTW...golf swing is a good analogy...baseball swing not so much. BB is about strength, not just speed and timing. Golf and pool swings are about clubhead/cuestick speed and perfect timing for optimum results, and lots of strength isn't required. JMO I should have just quoted the first paragraph, as that's the part I liked the best.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Good post. Agreed... last year at the Open I used the cut break to great avail. I was probably breaking around 18mph.
 
JoeyA... as you practice repetitiously, you will learn how to increase your accuracy of hit on the Cue Ball, create a Good Hit on the Rack & gain Cue Ball control after impact.

Repetition will assist you in developing your rhythm & coordination. That will build your speed.

Good Luck folks...
 
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