Brian White

[watchez]

..So why get mad at someone trying to promote pool and they won'tlet you steal the amateurs money....Your whole argument is crazy without amateurs and fans sports wouldn't exist where pros could do them for a living....There would be no money..Without sponsorships and people investing money in sports everyone would be poor that was a professional...

BW original issue with the Viking Tour/Janis was that Janis finally got a big name sponsor (Roaring Lion) but took all the extra added $$$ gained and put it towards the Amateur event. BW would have been happy if it went to the Open event that he was able to play in.

However, using your ranking of say BW being top 150 in the USA, it appears it is simply a business decision by Janis to gain more players in the Amateur events because he has more to gain. For the Open events, there are 150-200 players he can attract, for the Amateur events there are 1000s.

 

[Ky Boy]

Or.......

It could be that some people only want to play in events where their shot of winning is through the roof. Rather than play in one appropriately suited to their skill level. :shrug:


From a business standpoint Mike has made the more intelligent move. Although it hurts open level players now, eventually, these amateur players will not be allowed to play in the amateur tourney's. Therefore, increasing the field and payout of future open tournaments. JMO


Gary

BW original issue with the Viking Tour/Janis was that Janis finally got a big name sponsor (Roaring Lion) but took all the extra added $$$ gained and put it towards the Amateur event. BW would have been happy if it went to the Open event that he was able to play in.

However, using your ranking of say BW being top 150 in the USA, it appears it is simply a business decision by Janis to gain more players in the Amateur events because he has more to gain. For the Open events, there are 150-200 players he can attract, for the Amateur events there are 1000s.

 

[watchez]

It could be that some people only want to play in events where their shot of winning is through the roof. Rather than play in one appropriately suited to their skill level. :shrug:


From a business standpoint Mike has made the more intelligent move. Although it hurts open level players now, eventually, these amateur players will not be allowed to play in the amateur tourney's. Therefore, increasing the field and payout of future open tournaments. JMO


Gary

Gary- Have you ever been out to the BCA tournaments in Vegas each May? They have a system that if you finish high enough in your class then next year you are forced to move up and stay there, for I think 3 years. If your team does good, you are also forced to move up or make a new team with only 2 of the original members. (I think I got this right or at least close enough)

Anyways, the following year - participation in the upper classes NEVER increases. It stays the same or drops off. For example - the Men's Master teams this year had 16 teams only. The year before 20. What happened to the high placing teams of the Open and high placing players that were now not Open players? What happened to the teams that felt they could not compete. I'll give you one guess.

 

[Ky Boy]

No, I haven't been there. And have never played in a league for that matter. But I hope that breeding new interest to the game will help grow it. I don't have the answers and don't claim to. But I do know that allowing top players into amateur events is not the answer. It's lonely at the top or so I hear.

Is BW's gripe about the added money for the open event or the fact he couldn't play in the amateur tourney?

I hope that it's about the open event added money and not being able to play in the amateur one. I have played in the DCC (since it is close to home and I go to school and raise a family) and absolutely enjoy the hell out of myself. And if it hadn't been for school I would have attended the amateur event at Breaker's in Knoxville. At least I know that playing in a DCC event my chances of cashing are a very long shot. If players of Brian's caliber are allowed to play in amateur events then it defeats the purpose of an 'amateur event'.

The only solution I could give Brian is--bear down and work on your game so you are a top finisher in open events. I know that he has worked very hard to become the player that everyone in this thread says he is but he shouldn't be allowed to enter an amateur event and walk over everyone.


Watchez, I read alot in this forum and alot of what you write as well as others. So I know you are logical and intelligent. I also know we are on the same page for the most part regarding our views about this thread. With that said I strive to remain optimistic regarding the conditions of the sport we enjoy. I don't want to think that history will continue to repeat itself and this sport will never grow beyond what it is today. Eventually, these players that moved up at the BCA will continue to go and play in the tougher fields. At least I hope they do or this sport will eventually die out altogether!!

Gary

Gary- Have you ever been out to the BCA tournaments in Vegas each May? They have a system that if you finish high enough in your class then next year you are forced to move up and stay there, for I think 3 years. If your team does good, you are also forced to move up or make a new team with only 2 of the original members. (I think I got this right or at least close enough)

Anyways, the following year - participation in the upper classes NEVER increases. It stays the same or drops off. For example - the Men's Master teams this year had 16 teams only. The year before 20. What happened to the high placing teams of the Open and high placing players that were now not Open players? What happened to the teams that felt they could not compete. I'll give you one guess.

 

[BreakersOne]

Brian...Oh, now you're a tough guy? I suppose you want to fight about being a whiner? No less than a few dozen posters here called you a whiner. You gonna take on all of us? If you don't think what you're doing here is whining, then you have bigger psychological problems than it appears. I stand by my statement...go find a playground that you can play on, and quit whining about the ONE you can't play on. Geez...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Dude, you have no clue, you need to quit with the whinning stuff while you are ahead.

 

[watchez]

Is BW's gripe about the added money for the open event or the fact he couldn't play in the amateur tourney?

I hope that it's about the open event added money and not being able to play in the amateur one.
Gary

Just to fill you in (and probably some other posters as well). It all started here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=107431

The Viking 9-Ball tour has run for many years in the east. After all this time it looks like they finally have a sponsor whos willing to put up a little money so they can have $2500 added events. After all this time of the tournament director making more than the guys who finished 1st and 2nd in the tournament, you finally have a sponsor to add good money and who do you reward? The guys who have devoted much of their lives to pool, spending many hours practicing? No, you reward the amateurs with 4 straight $2500 added tourneys. You're an asset to this sport!

 

[Ky Boy]

That makes it a little more clear. Mike probably should have awarded the open events that have kept him going for so long with more money. I see Brian's point of view in that respect. BUT he shouldn't be complaining about not being able to play in the amateur event.


Gary<------peace out!

 

[MikeJanis]

Mike probably should have awarded the open events that have kept him going for so long with more money.
Gary<------peace out!

Yeah, there are quite a few pieces to the puzzle missing. In the past we have added over $1,000,000 to Open tournament prize funds and in the last 2 years increased the added in the Opens 50% per event from $1k to $1,5K each. The combined Amateur events are NO WHERE NEAR that.


The below is from stats posted for the Viking Tour from a few yeears ago (about 4). This is before the Amateur events started rolling and only include OPEN events and does not reflect any of the $1,500 added events we have been doing in the past few years or the $20K Added Open SCO's and the $10k Open added or the last 2 $25K Open Nationals. Off the Top of my head (best guess)the Amateur monies are still 10X - 15X less than what the opens have been.




OUR SUCCESS

The 1st year, 94/95, we had 16 events. They were $500 added with a
$5K added championship. (We had 750 entries & gave away $50K )

The 2nd year, 95/96, we had 24 events. They were $500 added with a
$5K added championship. (We had 1,000 entries & gave away $75K )

The 3rd year, 96/97, we had 24 events. They were $1,000 added with a
$5K added championship. (We had 1,250 entries & gave away $100K )

The 4th year, 97/98, we had 36 events. They were $1,000 added with a
$5K added championship. (We had 1,800 entries & gave away $150K )

The 5th year, 98/99, we had 48 events. They were $1,000 added with a
$5K added championship. (We had 2,400 entries & gave away $175K )

The 6th year, 99/00, we had 48 events, They were $1,000 added with four $5,000 added regional championships. (We had 3,000 entries & gave away $225K )

The 7th thru 10th years, Each year we had 48 events,
They were $1,000 added with each year having four $5,000 added
Regional Championships and a $25K added National Championship.
(We averaged 3,750 player entries and gave away an average of $275,000 of prize money each year.)

To sum it up: Since the inception of the tour, we have held about 450 events. We have had approximately 25,000 player entries in our events. Over $2,000,000.00 of prize money has been won by our tour players.


After crunching some #rs the current season we are in is estimated to have had more than double the player entries from the above report 4 years ago.

And YES, we are still growing !

Mj

 

[frankncali]

Just to fill you in (and probably some other posters as well). It all started here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=107431

Watchez

Even in your quote posted from Brian its clear. He is ONLY upset becuase he feels Open players give more to the sport.

Here is the quote
Originally Posted by B_White
The Viking 9-Ball tour has run for many years in the east. After all this time it looks like they finally have a sponsor whos willing to put up a little money so they can have $2500 added events. After all this time of the tournament director making more than the guys who finished 1st and 2nd in the tournament, you finally have a sponsor to add good money and who do you reward? The guys who have devoted much of their lives to pool, spending many hours practicing? No, you reward the amateurs with 4 straight $2500 added tourneys. You're an asset to this sport!

He is bitter because of a business decision and also feels that Mike somehow has been beating the guys playing the events out of money. (making more than 1st and 2nd).
In all honesty he isnt thinking business related at all but rather with his heart. What if Roaring Lion ONLY signed on for the AM events???

I also find the statement very telling that he feeling AM players havent
put in enough time to profit or are somehow beneath guys of a higher skill level. Thats bullshit. I would bet $100 to a day old doughnut that YOU know guys that have played their while lifes and entered all kinds of events knowing that they are dead money. Why are they less deserving due to less ability. Anyone that thinks its ONLY or even MOSTLY about practice and time spent is way off base.

 

[tigerseye]

This thread reminds me of the game to where it starts as a sentence but by the time it gets to the end the whole thing has been rearranged to something totally opposite of what it originated....lol!
As do most of these threads....=))

 

[corvette1340]

Dude, you have no clue, you need to quit with the whinning stuff while you are ahead.

I agree with this. I don't know Scott Lee, but I have known Brian for years. While Brain is usually very calm and laid back and doesn't look for trouble, I would advise against getting too cocky. It would not be a pretty sight.

 

[Scott Lee]

Excuse me...I have no personal grudge against B. White, or anybody else. It was stated very clearly by the tournament director, why things are the way they, and that players of B. White's ability will not be allowed in the amateur events. B. White continued to ***** and moan about how he can't have what he wants, and how unfair it is. Myself, and MANY others merely upheld what MJ stated. How that's being "cocky" I don't know.

IMO, the amateurs fund the sport at large. They play in more events, buy more merchandise, and support pro/sem-pro events. Without them there wouldn't even BE any pro events. Just because you're good at something, life does NOT owe you a living. Smart poolplayers find a niche, and earn their living that way (I'll admit that is a precarious challenge, but it is possible). For me, it's entertaining and teaching, that earns me a nice living...from playing pool. I understand Mr. White's frustration, but continuing to complain, after the fact, doesn't do any good (and yes, that is called "whining").

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[B_White]

Excuse me...I have no personal grudge against B. White, or anybody else. It was stated very clearly by the tournament director, why things are the way they, and that players of B. White's ability will not be allowed in the amateur events. B. White continued to ***** and moan about how he can't have what he wants, and how unfair it is. Myself, and MANY others merely upheld what MJ stated. How that's being "cocky" I don't know.

IMO, the amateurs fund the sport at large. They play in more events, buy more merchandise, and support pro/sem-pro events. Without them there wouldn't even BE any pro events. Just because you're good at something, life does NOT owe you a living. Smart poolplayers find a niche, and earn their living that way (I'll admit that is a precarious challenge, but it is possible). For me, it's entertaining and teaching, that earns me a nice living...from playing pool. I understand Mr. White's frustration, but continuing to complain, after the fact, doesn't do any good (and yes, that is called "whining").

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Again, people did not hear me. I did not say i should play in the amateur events. I said everyone should be allowed in every event. In other words, if someone wants to drive to a tourney they should not be turned away. I also said amateur events would eventually kill open events and most said I was crazy. However, it only took one event to prove my point. One day after the $2500 added amateur event in Tenn. Shannon Daulton's Open event to be held there two weeks later was cancelled. Exacty what I said would eventually happed to most open events.

 

[B_White]

Also, most of you guys are right about amateur events being better for the room owners. That's what makes them so dangerous to the open class player. What room owner will host a 45 man open event when he knows he can get 90 players in an am. event. Pretty soon, as i've said before , it will be amateur evnts and U.S. Open,Derby,Florida pro tour and thats about it. I for one want to play in more than 10 tourney's a year.

 

[watchez]

Again, people did not hear me. I did not say i should play in the amateur events.

I hear you.

I understand your point exactly. Pool damns people for getting better. With handicap tournaments, etc. there is no incentive to get better especially if the money opportunity is taken away or lesser in Open events.

By the way, I was the guy in with you 2 years ago @ DCC when you played the Tulsa boys one pocket (D. Strawn, Andy Friedenhofer). Been buddies with Gulyassy for years & he helped put me in with you for those games. Not sure if you remember.

 

[Ky Boy]

Brian,

The difference between most amateur players and open players is this:

Amateur players throw much more money at ANY event because they get up and go to work everyday. Thus having the extra money to spend. Lots of open class players don't do much outside of working in a pool room somewhere. I don't know you or your occupation but hope that you don't fall into that category.

And NO, everyone shouldn't be allowed to play in every event. That is part of the reason why pool is where it is at today. Long ago, the respected players of the game didn't provide any real hope of bringing this game to the masses. They didn't really teach or want to give away their trade secrets. They wanted to crush everyone they played. Nothing wrong with that mentality but defeating players that are new to the game says nothing about the established (open class) players skill level.

The problem is this: TOO many open players think they can make a living at this game and when times are hard they bite the hands that feed saying their not given enough to survive on. Well, it sucks and everyone who loves this game knows how hard it is. My respect to anyone who can make it solely on the funds this sport provides. Pool is a hard way to make an easy living.


Gary

Again, people did not hear me. I did not say i should play in the amateur events. I said everyone should be allowed in every event. In other words, if someone wants to drive to a tourney they should not be turned away. I also said amateur events would eventually kill open events and most said I was crazy. However, it only took one event to prove my point. One day after the $2500 added amateur event in Tenn. Shannon Daulton's Open event to be held there two weeks later was cancelled. Exacty what I said would eventually happed to most open events.

 

[DeadPoked]

Seems to me that Brian is doing the same thing that he is complaining about the amatuers are doing... Everyone that knows him says he plays at a pro level, but he doesn't play in any pro events. Why is that Brian? Don't feel like donating your hard earned money? You realize that you are not likely to place very well? You may realize there isn't any money in pro pool for a player of your caliber and just figured you could earn easy money playing in regional events and now that that money is drying up, you cry foul.

 

[JDB]

Also, most of you guys are right about amateur events being better for the room owners. That's what makes them so dangerous to the open class player. What room owner will host a 45 man open event when he knows he can get 90 players in an am. event. Pretty soon, as i've said before , it will be amateur evnts and U.S. Open,Derby,Florida pro tour and thats about it. I for one want to play in more than 10 tourney's a year.

I admit it, I didn't get your point at first; however, I did finally realize your point prior to this post and I think you are dead on in your assessment.

The funny thing is that the amateurs that will not play in open events or not play if so and so plays, generally still don't have a chance in the tournament because there are still several top notch amateurs who do play and cash in open events that will still be the heavy favorites. The people who won't play in open events most likely will not do much better in amateur events because the competition is still very strong.

This is not always the case, but I would bet it is the case in 95% of the amateurs who will not play in open events.

 

[ScottW]

However, it only took one event to prove my point. One day after the $2500 added amateur event in Tenn. Shannon Daulton's Open event to be held there two weeks later was cancelled. Exacty what I said would eventually happed to most open events.

One event is not necessarily the cause of another.

Also, "one" is not "most".

 

[Ed Simmons]

dead horse anyone?

This is the last post on this subject for me.

This quote was taken from post #34 on this thread. I was really hoping you were a man of your word!