Business tips?

Tommy-D

Tommy-D

World's best B player...
Silver Member
I'd like to ask the guys that have a decent or better repair business volume a question about how to approach a particular aspect of business.

In a thread in my recent history if you want the whole story and various responses to the situation that brings me here to pose the question,I was basically kicked out of a poolroom for not spending enough money to suit the owner.

However,while dealing with a cue work customer today,it was brought to my attention that there was supposedly a conversation between a regular there and the owner,that my customer overhead.

According to the info,another possible reason for this is the fact that I do ALL the repairs locally for anyone that knows enough to care for their cues,and have been known to pop in and out to meet people for my own business.

If this is the case,it's never been brought up to me. Before this incident,I would have certainly at least discussed it with him. After the way I was treated,maybe but maybe not.

My dad did really reasonably priced mechanic work for cash for people that hung out there for over 20 years,since this is really an old-timer's room in a town of less than 20k population,everyone in town knows this. His word of mouth advertising and quality work could conceivably have kept him busy close to 40 hours a week at one point,but his health won't allow it now.

The point of that info is the fact that NO ONE that has owned that place since I was a teenager EVER asked my dad for a nickel as part of their "cut" for him doing business there.

In my case,and moving towards my question,I'm currently in the best short-term stretch of business since I started really taking my whole operation "public".

With that being said,even with me doing X amount in the last 4-5 weeks,it's still less but maybe 1/2 what Joe Blackburn does in a DAY at a big enough event.

Sometimes,I go weeks without even a single tip or shaft cleaning. In my current upswing,I did 3 tips/shaft cleanings,an ivory ferrule/.5mm turndown,a phenolic tip/ferrule,and a 3pc set of joint protectors for different customers in just a few hours.

I've only had more business in a single day in the times that I've worked my only regular tournament gig,which is 4 times total,with #5 this time next month.

Sure he has put people in touch with me for repairs,but it's not like I was sent any customers with regularity,and my regulars and their referrals usually contact me directly before we make the hand-off anyway.

The owner fairly recently handed a cue that didn't belong to him to someone else and let them put a tip on it and stuck it in the wall rack with common house cues,because he didn't want to pay ME to do it right.

I recognized the cue because I had worked on it and saw it was HACKED up by the other guy,so I popped his tip off with my thumb in front of the guy that did it and took the cue home so I could get it back to the owner.

Now,if things were to come about where the local situation were to improve to where we can work this out if there is indeed a problem he perceives,at what point do I can justify cutting him in for me using his poolroom as a common meeting place?

Is it really reasonable to him to ask for a percentage on a 15.00 job for example?

It's readily apparent this guy isn't into pool,because you would think that someone that does nice cue work,esp when I'm the only one within an hour in all directions would be an asset. Tommy D.
 
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Hi,

I own a pool room and do cue repair and build cues!

If the owner does not do cue repair he is an A Hole to kick you out. His customers need this service and if he will not do it you are doing him a favor because they could go to another pool hall that does it.

If he wants a kick back percentage from you that just wrong IMO.

If he does cue repair there you should not solicit business at his room.

The solution is for you to offer to re tip his house cues if he allows your to bring in your lath on certain nights or during tournaments. This way he gets service from you and you get cue repair biz. All is good.

Rick
 
This is an interesting subject and allow me to share my three cents.

You're dead wrong! Ok, now let me explain...

You talk about your dad who did auto repair and solicited a lot of business from the pool room. This is fantastic. Hmmmm, now let's see. Auto's, carburetors, tires, transmissions, tune-ups, oil changes. Yep, last I checked none of those things compete directly or indirectly with a pool room. Can anyone correct me if I'm wrong. Get my drift.

You are doing pool cue repairs and whether or not you are soliciting, you are soliciting indirectly from the room. You are directly benefiting monetarily from the room. You are meeting people at the room even though the "hand off" does not occur at the room. Why does there need to be a "hand-off"? Because you know just as well as I do that you need to "hand-off" because something is amiss here otherwise there wouldn't need to be a "hand-off". If you're doing things above board, ethically, morally and the right way, there is no need for a "hand-off".

The world is not about I, I, I. And, if you read your post it's all about I. I this and I that. Never once did you mention anything about the room owner or have concern for or address why the room owner booted your butt. I believe he was well justified.

You stated that you believe the owner booted you becasue you felt that you weren't "spending enough money". Well, let me ask you this. Did you ever buy the room owner lunch? Do you sit there and rarely buy a coke? Do you play pool there and pay for time? Did you ever offer the room owner a $5 bill for the repairs you did to someone's cue that you "handed-off" before you went into the room. Did you ever offer the room owner a few bucks on the cues he did give you even though it wasn't with any "regularity"?

Let's put it this way. The room owner has rent, electric, telephone, cable and salaries to pay. What do you pay to run your business? Nada! You know as well as I do that you are earning off the back of others. Throw the damn guy a $20 once a month for God's sake.

If I were you, I'd man-up and walk in the room when the owner is there but business is slow so that you can talk with the owner. Apologize to him and ask him what can 'WE' do to make some money and how can 'WE' exist together in a fair and equitable manner.

Maybe my stance is strong and goes against many of you but that's the way I see it.
 
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TAGGED....Just wanting to see where this thread goes.

I'm with SCDIVETEAM and Joe does make a few valid points.

prior to your situation going volatile, a "free" lunch to the owner or some other gesture of that sorts does make sense... Luckily, I'm good friends with the owners of the rooms I do business with. THey have NEVER asked for a percentage, kickback or anything of the sort. They way they see it is they don't have to do it, invest in the equipment to do it and if there's a problem, I have to deal with it.
 
As others have mentioned you have to make a gesture that says" I know this is your busines and I'm grateful that you allow me to approach your customers and conduct business here" Whether it be playing pool more often, buying food, doing some free work for the owner, bringing him new customers or maybe just offering to help in anyway could be enough. This is all call good business etiquette. Avoid conflict at all cost. Also you could be making cues in the future and be in direct competition with the room owner, he could very well be looking into that possibility. It's up to you to put things in the right perspective
and come forth as someone he can work with.

"Who says good work is enough" :)


Mario
 
I rarely set up my lathe at the poolroom I hang out at.
But when I do....
10-15% gets shipped to the owner.

When I set up at a tourney,
Either A, I have to rent a spot
Or B, I sponsor the tournament

There are really no free rides.

If I'm playing and someone walks by and leaves their cue to be fixed, I don't give anything to the poolroom, only if I actually set up there.
But I also eat, drink and spend a fair chunk of money in the place.

I should mention that I'm the main guy for repairs in my area, and I work on the owners cues as well.
 
As a former pool room owner and a current repairman I can see both sides. You popping that tip off in front of the guy who did the work made the owner and the other guy look bad. Does the guy who's tip job you popped off spend more money there than you? Do you also sell cues either ones you made or one others made? Some owners feel that is a conflict of interest. Most pool rooms tolerate me showing my cues to their customers even though they sell cues themselves, because they know what I have is different as a local cuemaker. Now if I showed up with various brands of cues and not just the ones I build it would be a different story.

But even so, I am fairly good friends with a room owner and he was at my shop one day getting some work done that was over his repair skill level. (He has one of my lathes and does simple repairs). We started talking about a local cue flipper getting told he could no longer sell cues at another local pool room. Then I just asked him what he thought of me bringing my 12 cue roll along case with me. He said his first thought was I might should have offered him a comission on anything I sell there, but that since I only show the cues I build he decided not to say anything to me, since I spend money when I come in.

So maybe you have been tolerated, but not appreciated. I make sure to at least buy a bottle of water and maybe something to eat when I go to tournaments and such. Also play a little pool. Don't be surprised if that room owner gets a lathe or the tip popping off guy gets a lathe.

I agree that you should be considered a benefit if that guy does not do repairs. But if you just meet there and hardly ever spend any money that eliminates you being an benefit to him. Here is what normally works. Get the guy to take the work in and collect the money up front for the job. Give him a 10 to 20% comission and get the money and give fast turn around on the work. Do it on a schedule unless you live near enough to drop in anytime you get a call.

Or find another pool room and start spending some money in it. Tip the waitresses good as they are your best friends at the pool rooms. You want all of them to like you, as they really are doing you a favor allowing you to do any business there.

I was once invited hundreds of miles away to work a tournament with my lathe. I asked the guy why he did not get another well known quality repairman that lived much closer to him to do it? He answered, "I do not want him in my room." I asked him why? His simple answer was: "He never spends a dollar."

I am just giving food for thought, as I could never make a good call on your situation as I do not know all the facts from both sides.
 
Joe,before this incident at the poolroom I would have been 100% on your side of the fence.

Under the current circumstances,I have to respectfully disagree to an extent.

It also seems as though a clearer description of how I do things is in order.

What I meant by a "hand-off" is a customer getting the cue or cues in my hands,as well as returning them,and getting paid. I can see nothing sketchy about it,so excuse me for making it seem like I was doing this out on a backroad,dark alley,etc.

I prefer to hand the finished product directly to the customer,because one of the most enjoyable aspects to me is their expression when they examine my work. I'm guessing many people that do repairs or build cues feel the same.

It doesn't always work like this however. In a LOT of cases,the customer follows me to the house,and is welcome to sit and watch,shoot the shit,and wait while I work. In some cases,the work gets dropped off at my place,and I delivered it at the poolroom,and sometimes it works in reverse.

At other times,the poolroom was just a common meeting place. On rare occasions,someone brings it to town for someone else,and I don't get to deal with the owner of the cue directly.

The owner of this room followed me outside 2 weeks ago after I dropped off a single 10.00 shaft cleaning and told me he'd appreciate it if I didn't come back to play in his weekly tournament because I don't spend ANY money. I wasn't barred from the room,just the tournament.

Before I can respond,his agitation level goes up a few notches as he repeats himself and he walks away.

Maybe his perception of my spending habits is off,but to say I NEVER spend any money makes it sound like I walk out on table time,bring in my own drinks,and stuff like that. That is incorrect.

Later the same week,I respected his wishes and didn't play in the tournament,but did come in and out 4 times to deliver work,pick up other work,and return it,all out in the open. Not a WORD was ever said about it.

Later that night,after listening to his fired-up complaint about my spending habits,I said what I had to say about it,and he told me to leave and not come back.

If he had come to me like a sensible businessman,I'd have been willing to throw him a bone,or at least work something out.

After him getting loud,abusive,and personal,I might still work something out with him,but the fence needs to be mended,and yes I know part of that is on me,and that's fine.

The bottom line is I refuse to be talked down to like he did,and as things are right now,I have no desire to go back.

He wouldn't spend the time or money to learn to do this kind of work,and refused my offer of doing his house cues for 3.00 each 5 years ago based on price alone. I firmly believe Rick is right that people that play there NEED my services.

As far as doing repairs for players that go there,I am the ONLY option because I am in an area where there isn't anyone doing quality work on a straight stretch of road literally 200 miles long from North to South,and maybe 100 miles East-West,at least not that I know of.

He never came to me and mentioned me doing business in his place of business,not a word. I've accepted the fact that me not extending my hand and making a gesture well before this is my fault.

In the 15 years I've had my 2 lathes,and enough belief in the quality of my work to charge people and even do he work in public,there have been month long stretches where I did a simple tip/cleaning,and that was IT. If I did as you suggest as bought him lunch at a place other than fast food,I'd be spending the whole month's worth of business to do so.

That may seem insignifigant to some,but I'm doing this on a limited enough basis as far as bankroll to not be in a position to even have enough stuff to install a joint pin,and what cash I can spare is better used on other things.

If you or anyone else wants to hear details about how this whole scenario went down,read here.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=310691

I appreciate your comments,but we're a page apart here,and I say that as calmly and respectfully as possible. Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
Joe,before this incident at the poolroom I would have been 100% on your side of the fence.

Under the current circumstances,I have to respectfully disagree to an extent.

It also seems as though a clearer description of how I do things is in order.

What I meant by a "hand-off" is a customer getting the cue or cues in my hands,as well as returning them,and getting paid. I can see nothing sketchy about it,so excuse me for making it seem like I was doing this out on a backroad,dark alley,etc.

I prefer to hand the finished product directly to the customer,because one of the most enjoyable aspects to me is their expression when they examine my work. I'm guessing many people that do repairs or build cues feel the same.

It doesn't always work like this however. In a LOT of cases,the customer follows me to the house,and is welcome to sit and watch,shoot the shit,and wait while I work. In some cases,the work gets dropped off at my place,and I delivered it at the poolroom,and sometimes it works in reverse.

At other times,the poolroom was just a common meeting place. On rare occasions,someone brings it to town for someone else,and I don't get to deal with the owner of the cue directly.

The owner of this room followed me outside 2 weeks ago after I dropped off a single 10.00 shaft cleaning and told me he'd appreciate it if I didn't come back to play in his weekly tournament because I don't spend ANY money. I wasn't barred from the room,just the tournament.

Before I can respond,his agitation level goes up a few notches as he repeats himself and he walks away.

Maybe his perception of my spending habits is off,but to say I NEVER spend any money makes it sound like I walk out on table time,bring in my own drinks,and stuff like that. That is incorrect.

Later the same week,I respected his wishes and didn't play in the tournament,but did come in and out 4 times to deliver work,pick up other work,and return it,all out in the open. Not a WORD was ever said about it.

Later that night,after listening to his fired-up complaint about my spending habits,I said what I had to say about it,and he told me to leave and not come back.

If he had come to me like a sensible businessman,I'd have been willing to throw him a bone,or at least work something out.

After him getting loud,abusive,and personal,I might still work something out with him,but the fence needs to be mended,and yes I know part of that is on me,and that's fine.

The bottom line is I refuse to be talked down to like he did,and as things are right now,I have no desire to go back.

He wouldn't spend the time or money to learn to do this kind of work,and refused my offer of doing his house cues for 3.00 each 5 years ago based on price alone. I firmly believe Rick is right that people that play there NEED my services.

As far as doing repairs for players that go there,I am the ONLY option because I am in an area where there isn't anyone doing quality work on a straight stretch of road literally 200 miles long from North to South,and maybe 100 miles East-West,at least not that I know of.

He never came to me and mentioned me doing business in his place of business,not a word. I've accepted the fact that me not extending my hand and making a gesture well before this is my fault.

In the 15 years I've had my 2 lathes,and enough belief in the quality of my work to charge people and even do he work in public,there have been month long stretches where I did a simple tip/cleaning,and that was IT. If I did as you suggest as bought him lunch at a place other than fast food,I'd be spending the whole month's worth of business to do so.

That may seem insignifigant to some,but I'm doing this on a limited enough basis as far as bankroll to not be in a position to even have enough stuff to install a joint pin,and what cash I can spare is better used on other things.

If you or anyone else wants to hear details about how this whole scenario went down,read here.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=310691

I appreciate your comments,but we're a page apart here,and I say that as calmly and respectfully as possible. Tommy D.
Click to expand...


Tommy....

This conversaion is nothing but respecful. We all have opinions and discussing issues may change ones mind or not. On that note...

You say this: "What I meant by a "hand-off" is a customer getting the cue or cues in my hands,as well as returning them,and getting paid. I can see nothing sketchy about it,so excuse me for making it seem like I was doing this out on a backroad, dark alley,etc."

And then say this: "The owner of this room followed me outside 2 weeks ago after I dropped off a single 10.00 shaft cleaning "

I would call that a "hand-off". If what you were doing was so honorable why did you have to go outside. You're taking the room owner for a fool. That's what your actions say to me.

What you are doing IMHO is unethical. But that's me adn my opinion.

You than say: "Later the same week,I respected his wishes and didn't play in the tournament,but did come in and out 4 times to deliver work,pick up other work,and return it,all out in the open. Not a WORD was ever said about it."

The guy asks you to leave and you do but you come back to "hand-off" more work; "in and out 4 times to deliver work, pick up other work,and return it".

Just becasue he doesn't say anything doesn't make it right. You are blatently disrespecting the guy and his business. Open your own shop. Of course you can't but it's ok to pick up and deliver work in his place of business. Not in my book.

You then state: "Later that night,after listening to his fired-up complaint about my spending habits,I said what I had to say about it,and he told me to leave and not come back."

You have a bad attitude. You had to listen to his "fired-up" and you "said what you had to say".

IMHO -- that's arrogant! But that's just me and how I perceive things.

"If he had come to me like a sensible businessman,I'd have been willing to throw him a bone,or at least work something out."

If you were dealing above board knowing you are earning off his back, you would have come to terms before he had to throw you out. He's the room owner. It was up to you to ask permission or to work something out. You pushed him to his limits.

"The bottom line is I refuse to be talked down to like he did,and as things are right now,I have no desire to go back."

Let's face reality here, you will because you need the exposure the room has to offer.

"I firmly believe Rick is right that people that play there NEED my services."

If that's the case, rent some space from the room owner. Work out a monthly service fee or some other such arrangement. Them needing your services is no excuse for stepping all over the room owner. You need the room to earn. That's reality.

"He never came to me and mentioned me doing business in his place of business,not a word. I've accepted the fact that me not extending my hand and making a gesture well before this is my fault."

It is a generally well know and accepted practice that you don't smack someone in their face in their own place of business.

Tommy -- let me ask you this. How old are you?
 
I've already figured things out to the point that I need to address this when setting up at a tournament I need to make a positive gesture for the room owner,and in a way I already have.

After setting up at my very first tournament,my first 3 jobs of the day were the owner's cues,3 non layered tips and cleanings at 15.00 each. I handed the last one back,and told him no charge for ALL of them when he asked about the bill.

He liked the work well enough he threw me a 20. Between me and my girlfriend,I spent ALL of that back in food and beverage plus a few bucks for the staff.

Just before we left,he thanked me for cleaning up my own mess,and even asked if I made enough to cover my expenses,and I did. I asked if I owed him anything,and he declined.

He said he was happy enough with my work on his cues that he wanted me to come back for his next tournament,and glad he could give some business to someone sorta local,barely an hour away from home.

Next month will be my 5th trip over there,and 3rd consecutive for this one which is a one day 8 ball event,and in Dec it will be 9 ball,6th trip overall,spread out over 3 full years.

At some point during every tournament,either the owner or his son has gotten something done on the house,but they've also paid for others.

At the poolroom here,there is no wait staff,just the owner. I didn't spend a whole lot true,but always kept something to drink,and played when I felt the urge or had free time.

I intend to ask the owner of the room where this tournament I do is again if he feels like a percentage is in order,to make sure we're simpatico.

To Chris,your point about popping the guy's tip off is well taken,just like everything else that has been posted here. It probably wasn't the best move,but it wasn't done out of spite.

I recognized the cue because I had worked on it,and it was left at the room by my customer/owner of the cue,but was in a locked rack with other "personal" cues,and wasn't left there for public use. The owner of this cue had not been there for several weeks/months because of his job,but he knew I had it the next day,and he asked me to fix it up,said he'd pay me,and hold on to it until he can get back to town.

I saw it in a rack with house cues owned by the room,and when I saw how bad the tip was done,I took it down and meant to give it to the room owner and ask him to put it away. Before I get to the counter the guy that put the tip on asked my why I had it. I explained that I knew who it belonged to,and wanted to know who hacked it up. The guy that worked on it owned up to it,and said the room owner asked him to put a tip on because he didn't want to pay ME to do it right,and he did it for free.

The dedicated break/jump tip I made and put on it was too hard to play normal pool with. His solution to put his replacement on left mine more or less sanded flat with a Tweeten sander,and his badly applied tip was glued on top,and left in horrible shape,along with gouges from the tip clamp,etc.

All I did was push on it with enough pressure to just see how soft the tip he put on was,and it fell off. I'm sure it would have come off rapidly while being played with as well. At this point,I decided to not discuss it further,and took it home to make sure it got back to it's owner.

To answer your questions,no I've never sold a cue there,or even had any to sell. I haven't made a cue yet,and he doesn't sell ANYTHING pool related.

I've never even tried to do a tournament where there is already someone in-house for repairs,to avoid stepping on toes.

Also,I've heard stories about certain room owners/tournament directors asking for a booth fee or flat rate for setting up in advance,or after the tournament. Some of those rates are more than I can pay out of pocket before hand,or reliably make during it,so I haven't asked.

At some tournaments I've looked into,they have a "regular" guy,usually a more established/advanced type,or a full-time cuemaker that has developed a rapport with rooms and tournament directors,etc. All of those guys usually do enough business to go into a tournament knowing they have let's say 200 in fees up front,because they always make it back plus some. I respect that and don't go any further.

I appreciate all the input,Tommy D.
 
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Back to Joe now ;).

I dropped off that 10.00 shaft to it's owner IN the poolroom before any of the negativity sprouted up. I made sure he was happy with my work,collected my 10 and walked out to go home. How is that unethical? :confused:

The room owner fast-walks outside when I'm about 25% of the way back to my vehicle,and calls my name. I walk maybe 10 feet closer to him and he asks me to not come back for his weekly tournament,based on his perception of my personal spending habits. I look at him with a stunned look on my face and before I get the first word of my response,he acts like he's half-ass hot and repeats,then walks away. He delivers his message,I stand there for 30 seconds speechless,and go home.

He never said I wasn't welcome period,just asked me to not come back for the tournament itself.

Believe me,I understand it shouldn't have reached this point,and know 100% that part of this is on me.

How am I disrespecting him when the bottom line is my work HELPS him,even with no money changing hands between us as a result of my work?

Keep in mind,up until that first conversation it had NEVER entered my mind that he might have a problem my spending habits,let alone me doing cue work and meeting customers in his place without cutting him in. I wasn't even aware that he had ever mentioned me using his place in a negative light until yesterday. My understanding of the situation up until yesterday was his problem with me was my personal spending habits.

As I was leaving on the night all the bullshit came up,I was talking to a regular and the subject of why I didn't play that night came up. The owner inserted himself into our conversation,and he goes on a semi-tirade about the amount of money I spend in there,and the longer this went on the more of a personal tone it took. I responded in my usual manner for people that just dog me,and he kicks me out. I left.

I can't see the way I do business as anything other than straight-forward and honest. Sure,I've used his place as common ground,but with this being the first time I've had to deal with someone like this,I wasn't aware I should have approached him before all this.

The one time I mentioned me and him working together on doing his house cues,he damn near laughed at me for offering to do 30-40 house cues @ 3.00 each,is that not a fair offer? That was at least 5 years ago. I never thought to even discuss my business with him after that.

Let's say none of this has happened. Why would I move my setup to his poolroom and pay him rent or make an arrangement with him when it might be a week or two before I even do another tip?

Another reason it doesn't make sense to me is there isn't anywhere in that poolroom to keep my rig secure.

The only advantage the room would offer is a concrete floor,but maybe I'm wrong. I can do my work here on my own time,and either have the customers come here,or arrange another meeting place. The people that care about their cues share my contact info freely with others looking for cue work,and even if I never go back in there,the work I do always makes him money because it's the only place within 15 miles that has something other than bar tables.

It's true he owns the poolroom,which also meanly he clearly has more money than I do. With him owning the place,a much nicer vehicle,etc,is it reasonable to expect me to give him a piece of the action when my cue work might not generate another 50.00 in the next few weeks?

If I was doing enough work to make 500/mo or more consistently on top of my regular job even away from his place I would be totally open to some kind of deal with him,and probably would have before all this.

Right now,my small business cannot sustain even half that pace,there just isn't enough of a pool scene here in this part of the country.

I'll be 43 in May. Curious as to why my age actually matters,but await your reply,once again calm and respectfully,Tommy D.
 
I can see Joe's point. Are you a patron of the establishment other than your business? I think that would make all the difference. If you are in there spending some of the cash you are collecting by playing pool, drinks, etc, that would be his "payment."
 
Tommy-D said:
Back to Joe now ;).

I dropped off that 10.00 shaft to it's owner IN the poolroom before any of the negativity sprouted up. I made sure he was happy with my work,collected my 10 and walked out to go home. How is that unethical? :confused:

The room owner fast-walks outside when I'm about 25% of the way back to my vehicle,and calls my name. I walk maybe 10 feet closer to him and he asks me to not come back for his weekly tournament,based on his perception of my personal spending habits. I look at him with a stunned look on my face and before I get the first word of my response,he acts like he's half-ass hot and repeats,then walks away. He delivers his message,I stand there for 30 seconds speechless,and go home.

He never said I wasn't welcome period,just asked me to not come back for the tournament itself.

Believe me,I understand it shouldn't have reached this point,and know 100% that part of this is on me.

How am I disrespecting him when the bottom line is my work HELPS him,even with no money changing hands between us as a result of my work?

Keep in mind,up until that first conversation it had NEVER entered my mind that he might have a problem my spending habits,let alone me doing cue work and meeting customers in his place without cutting him in. I wasn't even aware that he had ever mentioned me using his place in a negative light until yesterday. My understanding of the situation up until yesterday was his problem with me was my personal spending habits.

As I was leaving on the night all the bullshit came up,I was talking to a regular and the subject of why I didn't play that night came up. The owner inserted himself into our conversation,and he goes on a semi-tirade about the amount of money I spend in there,and the longer this went on the more of a personal tone it took. I responded in my usual manner for people that just dog me,and he kicks me out. I left.

I can't see the way I do business as anything other than straight-forward and honest. Sure,I've used his place as common ground,but with this being the first time I've had to deal with someone like this,I wasn't aware I should have approached him before all this.

The one time I mentioned me and him working together on doing his house cues,he damn near laughed at me for offering to do 30-40 house cues @ 3.00 each,is that not a fair offer? That was at least 5 years ago. I never thought to even discuss my business with him after that.

Let's say none of this has happened. Why would I move my setup to his poolroom and pay him rent or make an arrangement with him when it might be a week or two before I even do another tip?

Another reason it doesn't make sense to me is there isn't anywhere in that poolroom to keep my rig secure.

The only advantage the room would offer is a concrete floor,but maybe I'm wrong. I can do my work here on my own time,and either have the customers come here,or arrange another meeting place. The people that care about their cues share my contact info freely with others looking for cue work,and even if I never go back in there,the work I do always makes him money because it's the only place within 15 miles that has something other than bar tables.

It's true he owns the poolroom,which also meanly he clearly has more money than I do. With him owning the place,a much nicer vehicle,etc,is it reasonable to expect me to give him a piece of the action when my cue work might not generate another 50.00 in the next few weeks?

If I was doing enough work to make 500/mo or more consistently on top of my regular job even away from his place I would be totally open to some kind of deal with him,and probably would have before all this.

Right now,my small business cannot sustain even half that pace,there just isn't enough of a pool scene here in this part of the country.

I'll be 43 in May. Curious as to why my age actually matters,but await your reply,once again calm and respectfully,Tommy D.
Click to expand...

Tommy....

I don't want to get into this in any greater detail but I can see the huge generational gap in your thinking from mine and the thinking of the 20-45 year olds. We're miles apart.

I'll try to make this curt.

You stated, "How am I disrespecting him when the bottom line is my work HELPS him,even with no money changing hands between us as a result of my work".

You are bottom-feeding off this guys investment! You are freaking earning off this guys back. If you don't see that, I can't help you. This poor blastard has the investment, rent, electric, telephone and cable bills -- you walk in and glom business from his clients. That is unethical, low down and underhanded. You're in the guys face. Just because he hasn't said anything until now, doesn't make it ok.

You state, "I wasn't even aware that he had ever mentioned me using his place in a negative light until yesterday. My understanding of the situation up until yesterday was his problem with me was my personal spending habits".

You don't see it! You take, take, take and you don't give anything back. Your "spending habits" is not the issue; you taking business and not spending anything in return is the problem. The guy is pissed off and making it personal. That's wrong but you're wrong. If you had worked it out with him from the beginning instead of looking out for only yourself, things would have perhaps been different.

You stated, "Sure,I've used his place as common ground,but with this being the first time I've had to deal with someone like this,I wasn't aware I should have approached him before all this".

Enuf said. You used his place as common ground as your personal meeting place and place to drum-up and do business. That's wrong!

You stated, "The one time I mentioned me and him working together on doing his house cues,he damn near laughed at me for offering to do 30-40 house cues @ 3.00 each,is that not a fair offer? That was at least 5 years ago. I never thought to even discuss my business with him after that".

Did you ever think asking him what was so funny? Maybe he laughed because you were a newbie at the time.

You stated, "Let's say none of this has happened. Why would I move my setup to his poolroom and pay him rent or make an arrangement with him when it might be a week or two before I even do another tip"?

OK, let's forget that. Open your own place and don't use his investment to fuel your business. What would that cost you. With his room and investment you have an ongoing concern and established clientele. You just want the rewards and none of the liability.

You stated, "the work I do always makes him money because it's the only place within 15 miles that has something other than bar tables".

What a guy! You're the greastest. You make him money huh. And what about meeting people in his place? What about "handing-off" cues in his parking lot? What about.... oh forget it. I'm spinning my wheels.

You arrogantly state, "It's true he owns the poolroom,which also meanly he clearly has more money than I do. With him owning the place,a much nicer vehicle,etc,is it reasonable to expect me to give him a piece of the action when my cue work might not generate another 50.00 in the next few weeks".

Did you ever hear that you can learn something from succesfful people? Would you rather hang out with a guy driving a Mercedes or some scrounge looking to sand bag a game of pool from you? You might learn a thing or two from a guy who owns a place, has more money than you and has a nicer vehicle. Do you think he owes you a living? Do you think he should just hand over half his earnings to you? Just because he has more money than you doesn't mean he owes you and should just give you access to his clientele.

This is America. Work for what you have and earn your living on your own and not off the backs of others. No one owes you a living.

If I owned the room, and you were working out of my room and you bought me lunch once a month, I'd say the kid is trying. On the other hand with your entitlement attitude, I'd boot your ass and hire some guy to do repairs and make certian he was the best at what he did to put you out of business. In fact, I'd go out of my way to do it. But that's just me.

And, what does your age have to do with all this. Entitlement and your attitude. That's the real issuee here but let's not get into that because if I have to explain it to you, you won't understand.

Tommy.... I'm done and you should be too. Go into the room, apologize that you didn't 'get it', even though you probably still don't and ask what you can do to make things right and how can you and he coexist snd make money together. See what he says to that and what he offers. Make peace with him and who knows what doors that may open. Good luck.
 
You dont owe that guy a damn thing. Its really a simple "ill scratch your back and you scratch mine" type of deal. if you dont keep the pool players playing with their cues, then they go golfing, or bowling, or somewhere else. I remember before i started making cues, whenever i put a new tip on, i couldnt wait to go to the pool hall and play. While at the pool hall, i ordered food and drinks all night, on top of table time. i have people that come to me and want me to work on their cues, and i dont see where that entitles the owner to any of my hard earned cash. im the one taking the risk of damaging the cue. im the one responsible if something goes wrong. im the one they will yell at if they dont like the work, so what part of that responsibility is shared by the owner? sure, if you are setting up shop in the hall, then rent should be discussed, but if its just people coming to you and wanting you to work on their cues, then by no means should you pay the owner anything. you are doing him a favor by keeping his customers happy, and playing. just my opinion.

joe
 
I work out a deal with the room that I repair all their house cues at no charge and I give them 1 gross of Masters chalk.
You re-tip 25 house cues at 10 bucks each and a gross of chalk. That comes out to $270.00 so they get more than a 10% cut for the work done.
They are looking at numbers just like you and when they see what they are saving on in the end.
I have not had a room owner turn this deal down yet and I have been doing this for 20 plus years.
Most of the time if you give a little you will get greater in return.
 
Hi,

In my pool hall bar I treat the people without money who just hang and don't spend money with the same respect I treat the guy who buys drinks for everyone and runs up big bar tabs.

Business is about relationships and making friendly gestures to everyone. Not from a profit thinking way but a serious and genuine effort to socialize and enjoy people you meet.

I advise anyone who is in business and disagree's with me to read Dale Carnagie's classic book "How to Win Friends and Influence People". A smile that is genuine is the simplest gesture and it is contagious and lifts other people's spirt when given by you. It promotes positivity and is the basis for all good will.

When you wake up tomorrow, put a smile on you face and give it to everyone you meet. I bet you will get a ton of smiles in return!!!

The room owner who complains about someone not spending money is in the wrong position. He should not be dealing with the public.

Being in business is not just about making money, it is about developing genuine relationships from fairness and trust. Once you learn that ldeal money and success with never be a problem.

Rule number 1: customer is king

Rule number 2: never forget rule number 1

Some people are so tied up in money that they lose the opportunity to gather friends and relationships that would not only enhance positivity in their life with huge financial success.

This is the best business tip I can offer if I live to be 100.

JMO,

Rick
 
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Joe,the details I have given in this thread and my original thread about this poolroom are ALL the details,so there isn't anything further.

I agree with some of your points,and disagree with others,but ALL your points have been now absorbed clearly,and will be put to the most use possible.

No beef at all,just diff opinions and healthy debate.

I have seen the errors on my part here,and am formulating a plan on how to address things,and avoid scenes like this.

I have one more simple question for you on the subject,and leave it at that.

Hypothetically let's say you were the owner,who has no real pool experience as far as what a decent cue is,knowledge on how to do simple repairs,or equipment.

Would you really make the time and cash investment to try and put me out of business with me making less than 1000 bucks a year on repair work (with only 25% or less of my yearly output taking place in your room),or hire someone to do the work and foot the bill for equipment and supplies?

That's kinda harsh,but your opinion is yours,no sweat.

I'm not saying something like this won't happen,or can't.

In my mind,it's just highly unlikely. The guy that put a tip on badly and the room owner just don't care about pool enough to make an effort like that,JMO. Tommy D.
 
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about this whole thing....from the owners attitude, I would estimate that the way he treats people, he won't be in business all that much longer. It's not like you were setting up your lathe in his hall, or even out in the parking lot. He, as the owner, has the power to bar you from the premises, yes, but he also bears the responsibility of having done so. You have a recourse, if you choose to do so, as a last resort: IF he continues to bar/ban you from his pool room, you can always spread the word around how he has treated you to your customers, RESPECTFULLY, and tell them that you will no longer be meeting them at his pool hall. DO NOT slander him or say anything negative about him, as that will just tarnish YOUR reputation, as a lot of people will merely see it as "sour grapes". Word will eventually get back to the owner that you are talking to YOUR clients, and he will either realize that he went too far, or possibly go even farther. If he apologizes, take it gracefully. If he goes even farther, then HE will look like the irrational idiot and your reputation AND your conscience will still be clear. Remember, take the high road ALWAYS. Some people are better off not being around. If he is worth being around, he will eventually open up a way, if not, find another pool hall.

Jim Notestine
 
room owner

I give my room owner 20% on all repair he checks in or collects for me...alot cheaper than my own storefront!
 
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