I watched it over and over imo he jumped the cue ball slightly and it landed so perfect that it hit object ball then bounced into the rail which nudged it over to draw around that other ball. I hope i worded it correctly. Look at the cue ball it is in air then hit ball then rail then the draw took hold.
Bustamante shot vs Strickland
- Thread starter teedotaj
- Start date
Lmao are you going to jump in anytime anyone types "touch of inside"? Maybe you can get Busty to claim a 10% improvement in his game after watching your dvds.
-roger
Well explained and simply put Jay!
Nice job by the way as always.
Thanks for all you do for pool!
I find it weird that many can't do this kind of stroke
It's crazy to me because there are some really good players I have come across that can shoot lights out but when it comes to a stroke shot like this, they become mere mortals. You want great draw stroke with control on angle..get ur hands on the 2007 us open 9 ball match of efren vs alcano where efren power stroke draws the 1 and it just hits, curves and stalls..then darts back into a cluster that was holding up the 2 ball..needless to say it was MAGIC.
It's crazy to me because there are some really good players I have come across that can shoot lights out but when it comes to a stroke shot like this, they become mere mortals. You want great draw stroke with control on angle..get ur hands on the 2007 us open 9 ball match of efren vs alcano where efren power stroke draws the 1 and it just hits, curves and stalls..then darts back into a cluster that was holding up the 2 ball..needless to say it was MAGIC.
Bingo on the inside english. Without the inside, the CB wouldn't have have reacted that way off the rail. It allowed the CB to go slightly past the CB/OB tangent line, giving the CB more time to get off the rail before the draw spin took effect.
Watch closely and you'll see the "floating effect" of the TOI.
We have an "inside alert" hooked up to the internet...it's like the Bat Signal, but flashes a TOI in the sky.:yeah:
Watch the run out that Bustemante performs and tell me he doesn't use TOI on every shot. I've played him many times and I can tell by how the cue ball comes off the object ball. Watch closely and you'll see the "floating effect" of the TOI. Also watch how heavy his cue ball reacts too, this is also a sign.
We have an "inside alert" hooked up to the internet...it's like the Bat Signal, but flashes a TOI in the sky.:yeah:
Watch the run out that Bustemante performs and tell me he doesn't use TOI on every shot. I've played him many times and I can tell by how the cue ball comes off the object ball. Watch closely and you'll see the "floating effect" of the TOI. Also watch how heavy his cue ball reacts too, this is also a sign.
It was probably low inside. Inside english bounced it off he rail out a bit, and the draw grabbed when it was past the other ball. I have seen that shot explained in a few books, pretty sure Byrne has it in one of his books.
Haha, how'd this one get dragged up again after 3 years? Well anyway it's still a good shot and interesting to discuss.
Here's a freeze-frame at the moment of impact or just after.
What this shows is:
1. Not rail first, the cue ball is touching the rail a millesecond after the 4 is already flying away.
We can also forget about jumping the ball. There IS a jump shot trick to move the cue ball when there's no angle... but this is not that trick. I saw Niels use the jump trick recently in his straight pool match with Max E. on insidepool.tv.
2. Lots of pocket cheat. The 4 is clearly moving towards the left edge of the pocket (from our perspective... it's the right edge from busty's)
3. Definitely inside english being used. You can see his cue is off to the side (and if you review the replay, you can see he started out that way.
What I believe (and I'll try testing) is that inside is not necessary to get this kind of stun draw. Only a firm slightly-below-center hit. If you hit full draw it starts backwards right away and bumps the 7. If you hit center it stuns sideways without coming backwards at all. So the secret is to hit the sweet spot right in between.
About the inside spin:
When players try this shot with inside, I believe their thinking is something like this:
- Inside causes a ball to undercut a little
- Therefore, to compensate, you must cut the ball a little more.
- So in addition to cheating the pocket, I can overcut it a hair, and just use inside spin to cancel out my overcut. The spin throws it back into the hole.
But this may actually be wrong. With a lot of testing Dr. Dave confirmed that spin-induced throw only works at lower speeds. At high speed (like the busty shot) it has very little effect. The cue ball doesn't spend enough time in contact with the object ball grab it and noticeably change its path.
So, what I believe is that most of the work is done by cheating the pocket, turning a very slight angle into a larger one... and hitting closer to center ball than usual to increase the amount of sideways stun.
I guess it's possible there's some subtle way inside can alter the path, like it's rotating on a diagonal axis, and for a second after contact it isn't moving much and kind of "peels out" like a car spinning its wheels, except the wheel is spinning at a diagonal angle instead of the straight backward angle you'd get with center draw.
I'll try setting it up, should be fun to test.
Here's a freeze-frame at the moment of impact or just after.
What this shows is:
1. Not rail first, the cue ball is touching the rail a millesecond after the 4 is already flying away.
We can also forget about jumping the ball. There IS a jump shot trick to move the cue ball when there's no angle... but this is not that trick. I saw Niels use the jump trick recently in his straight pool match with Max E. on insidepool.tv.
2. Lots of pocket cheat. The 4 is clearly moving towards the left edge of the pocket (from our perspective... it's the right edge from busty's)
3. Definitely inside english being used. You can see his cue is off to the side (and if you review the replay, you can see he started out that way.
What I believe (and I'll try testing) is that inside is not necessary to get this kind of stun draw. Only a firm slightly-below-center hit. If you hit full draw it starts backwards right away and bumps the 7. If you hit center it stuns sideways without coming backwards at all. So the secret is to hit the sweet spot right in between.
About the inside spin:
When players try this shot with inside, I believe their thinking is something like this:
- Inside causes a ball to undercut a little
- Therefore, to compensate, you must cut the ball a little more.
- So in addition to cheating the pocket, I can overcut it a hair, and just use inside spin to cancel out my overcut. The spin throws it back into the hole.
But this may actually be wrong. With a lot of testing Dr. Dave confirmed that spin-induced throw only works at lower speeds. At high speed (like the busty shot) it has very little effect. The cue ball doesn't spend enough time in contact with the object ball grab it and noticeably change its path.
So, what I believe is that most of the work is done by cheating the pocket, turning a very slight angle into a larger one... and hitting closer to center ball than usual to increase the amount of sideways stun.
I guess it's possible there's some subtle way inside can alter the path, like it's rotating on a diagonal axis, and for a second after contact it isn't moving much and kind of "peels out" like a car spinning its wheels, except the wheel is spinning at a diagonal angle instead of the straight backward angle you'd get with center draw.
I'll try setting it up, should be fun to test.
"Inside Knowledge"
I've executed this type shot quite a bit in my playing career. The "inside contact" actually deflects the cue ball so it over-cuts the object ball slightly (it doesn't have time to spin much). This means you can hit the object ball quite a bit fuller. I've been saying this is something you have to experience because it doesn't 'make sense unless you do.
Those of you that are experimenting with the "Inside Knowledge" will understand this type shot on a different level now. It comes up in many different ways, and situations.
When you hit the cue ball in a very specific spot you can generate this type reaction on the cue ball. It's not as much stroke as it is precision on your tip/cue ball accuracy.
We road players call this particular shot "Pinning" the cue ball.
Haha, how'd this one get dragged up again after 3 years? Well anyway it's still a good shot and interesting to discuss.
Here's a freeze-frame at the moment of impact or just after.
What this shows is:
1. Not rail first, the cue ball is touching the rail a millesecond after the 4 is already flying away.
We can also forget about jumping the ball. There IS a jump shot trick to move the cue ball when there's no angle... but this is not that trick. I saw Niels use the jump trick recently in his straight pool match with Max E. on insidepool.tv.
2. Lots of pocket cheat. The 4 is clearly moving towards the left edge of the pocket (from our perspective... it's the right edge from busty's)
3. Definitely inside english being used. You can see his cue is off to the side (and if you review the replay, you can see he started out that way.
What I believe (and I'll try testing) is that inside is not necessary to get this kind of stun draw. Only a firm slightly-below-center hit. If you hit full draw it starts backwards right away and bumps the 7. If you hit center it stuns sideways without coming backwards at all. So the secret is to hit the sweet spot right in between.
About the inside spin:
When players try this shot with inside, I believe their thinking is something like this:
- Inside causes a ball to undercut a little
- Therefore, to compensate, you must cut the ball a little more.
- So in addition to cheating the pocket, I can overcut it a hair, and just use inside spin to cancel out my overcut. The spin throws it back into the hole.
But this may actually be wrong. With a lot of testing Dr. Dave confirmed that spin-induced throw only works at lower speeds. At high speed (like the busty shot) it has very little effect. The cue ball doesn't spend enough time in contact with the object ball grab it and noticeably change its path.
So, what I believe is that most of the work is done by cheating the pocket, turning a very slight angle into a larger one... and hitting closer to center ball than usual to increase the amount of sideways stun.
I guess it's possible there's some subtle way inside can alter the path, like it's rotating on a diagonal axis, and for a second after contact it isn't moving much and kind of "peels out" like a car spinning its wheels, except the wheel is spinning at a diagonal angle instead of the straight backward angle you'd get with center draw.
I'll try setting it up, should be fun to test.
I've executed this type shot quite a bit in my playing career. The "inside contact" actually deflects the cue ball so it over-cuts the object ball slightly (it doesn't have time to spin much). This means you can hit the object ball quite a bit fuller. I've been saying this is something you have to experience because it doesn't 'make sense unless you do.
Those of you that are experimenting with the "Inside Knowledge" will understand this type shot on a different level now. It comes up in many different ways, and situations.
When you hit the cue ball in a very specific spot you can generate this type reaction on the cue ball. It's not as much stroke as it is precision on your tip/cue ball accuracy.
We road players call this particular shot "Pinning" the cue ball.
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Interesting analysis. I think what you say above is kinda a secondary effect for using inside. But as I mentioned previously, I think the primary effect of inside is for the CB to move forward slightly (beyond the CB/OB tangent line) after hitting the rail. This gives the CB more time to move laterally in order to clear the 7 before the draw spin takes effect.
If inside wasn't used, then there would be absolutely no forward movement of the CB after hitting the rail such that the draw would kick in much sooner and the CB would draw back at a much steeper angle. But the amount Busty cheated the pocket and the force he it the shot, the CB probably still would have cleared the 7 even if he hit it without inside. But inside definitely made the draw arc much wider.
So you're saying the inside lets it hit the OB, hit the rail, then spin off the rail "uphill" a bit before starting to suck backwards? I can sort of see the logic in that.
I feel pretty confident that inside vs. outside doesn't affect how early the draw 'takes'. But I'll try it myself. Dr. Dave tested this one and took high-speed videos of 'quick draw' using center, inside, and outside. In all three cases the ball took the same path.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-25.htm
I don't think sidespin has any affect on how far sideways the ball goes before going backwards, it's all about how fat you hit the ball. If you use inside to deflect a little and overcut the ball (which I think is what CJ is getting at)... you also could just 'manually' aim to overcut it the same amount, and use center draw to get the same path.
No inside english used..follow the measles on the ball
The trick with his shot is how hard he hit it...the spin has a delayed effect due to how hard he hit it so what happens is that the cue ball follows the natural tangent of the shot, bounces off the rail THEN the spin finally takes effect and the ball spins back. no inside on this whatsoever..just smart play by knowing the angle. Watch how the dots spin, its why they are there so you can see what kind of english is being used if any...
The trick with his shot is how hard he hit it...the spin has a delayed effect due to how hard he hit it so what happens is that the cue ball follows the natural tangent of the shot, bounces off the rail THEN the spin finally takes effect and the ball spins back. no inside on this whatsoever..just smart play by knowing the angle. Watch how the dots spin, its why they are there so you can see what kind of english is being used if any...
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Look at the slow motion viewed at the angle where the shot goes across the TV screen (left to right). After the CB makes contact with the OB and rail, the CB actually moves forward past the tangent line (in direction of the pocket) by at least half a ball before it spins backwards. If there was no inside used, then physics says that it would have been impossible for the CB to move forward after contact with the OB and rail.
As others mentioned, Busty used the same exact stroke @45:48. It is more evident in that shot that inside was used.