Butt foul?
- Thread starter Bob Jewett
- Start date
Certainly....unsportsmanlike behavior.
....same call would be for leaving your jump butt in the pocket when you are not shooting.
In snooker, when everyone used a long cue and rest (long tackle to the British), players
often left their playing cue lying on the playing surface.
If a ball hits it, a foul is called.....he is not endangering his opponent, so no prob.
Well, I tried to be dyplomatichowever, it seems you are still well into your Ump Show, sorry :frown:
The facts are:
You have no solid grounds to call it a foul
Most of the pool playing world considers it as a "proper conduct"
It constitutes no impact on the outcome of the shot
It does neither damage to the equipment nor to the game
You must be reasonable when dealing with delicate issues
etc.
Common Sense ??????
Perhaps you should rethink your position on this
I understand the whole "common sense" approach. I've been known to have a little common sense myself here and there over the years. But it's not about making a judgement call on the spot. It's a rule, just like it's a rule in all ball fouls when a strand of your hair touches a ball, even though it didn't move the ball ---- it's still a foul. There are reasons for these rules and they don't always appear fair in an individual situation at times, but there is a logic of intent that flows through the rules ---- ALL the rules.
You can't just start creating exceptions because you don't like a rule. The rule is clear. It is illegal to deliberately use the equipment for reasons other than what were intended when the balls are in play.
Take a minute, walk over to your chair and place the butt of your cue on the chair. It only takes a few seconds to comply with the rule.
I think some people are conflating the ideas of "I don't like it when people do that" and "that is a foul".
I have seen one fastidious player throw the left chalk at this opponent. Probably more quickly effective.I assume you mean that you accidentally hit their chalk and it enters the playing surface and makes contact with either the cue ball (before a shot) or another ball during the shot.
How about asking the guy not to leave it nicely the first time. Every time they do afterwards you simply knock it on the floor. They will eventually get sick of picking it up.
Well, that would be unsportsmanlike conduct then, but the primary motivation for such a call would be:
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly.
I think you would have to invoke the "brings disrepute to the sport" clause. I think that's a little severe.Personally, I don't like pocket-based butt storage, but as the referee I probably wouldn't issue a warning at the time but maybe mention to the player casually between racks to store elsewhere and then ask him to remove it at the next occurrence.
In the case of the similar "I guess I don't need the bridge but I'll wait a little to put it away" situation, I have no problem with the player leaving the bridge, unused, on the table during a shot, but it would be better for him to hand it to the referee to put away.
Yes, 6.16 (h) Using equipment inappropriately.
I think it's wrong for a player leaving the bridge on the table, unused, while shooting. . It's also sloppy and arrogant. Take 5 seconds to remove the bridge from the table and then shoot your shot.
The table should be free of obstacles like that when shooting.
Would you call a foul?
For me, unsportsmanlike behavior would be to waste everyone's time by taking the butt back to the player's seat.
I'm not a fan of bending down to put things on the floor or pick things up off the floor either... it can take a few seconds to get one's bearings after the rush of blood to the scone.
I'm not a fan of bending down to put things on the floor or pick things up off the floor either... it can take a few seconds to get one's bearings after the rush of blood to the scone.
Yes. The player was using the equipment (in this case, the table) inappropriately.
But here's the thing about all these minor infractions: It's important to educate the players at the players meeting that the rules will be enforced and to give examples of things that they may have taken for granted due to lack of enforcement.
Players should act like gentlemen and gentlewomen at the table and leave their arrogance, disrespect and laziness at home. Take a few seconds, do the right thing and show respect for the game.
And if you all think certain rules shouldn't be there, then lobby to have them changed.
Fwiw, I think you are very much overstretching the improper use of equipment rule.
It is not the rule that needs to be changed, but your interpretation of it (IMO off course).
What if a player has not washed his hands well enough (according to you) can that
also mean he makes a foul when he puts his hand on the cloth?
The rule is there to protect the integrity of the game, and the game's integrity is just fine
when a short butt is placed up against the rail or in a pocket. If a ball hits the extension
or comes close to doing so, then it's obviously a foul. Not before.
https://youtu.be/Vjq8qXB6G1A?t=3m27s (please don't tell me this is snooker and not pool).
gr. Dave
It is not the rule that needs to be changed, but your interpretation of it (IMO off course).
What if a player has not washed his hands well enough (according to you) can that
also mean he makes a foul when he puts his hand on the cloth?
The rule is there to protect the integrity of the game, and the game's integrity is just fine
when a short butt is placed up against the rail or in a pocket. If a ball hits the extension
or comes close to doing so, then it's obviously a foul. Not before.
https://youtu.be/Vjq8qXB6G1A?t=3m27s (please don't tell me this is snooker and not pool).
gr. Dave
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Immediate foul! Using an item for something it was not intended to be used for.
JoeyA
JoeyA
I guess it can go on and on. When he brings his sweaty towel to the table and starts removing chalk from the rails and then conveniently leaves the sweaty towel stored in the pocket, the referee can decide to issue a warning or not. The next time, it can be something else ad nauseam.
JoeyA
JoeyA
I mostly agree with you but there are cases when a player should not be allowed to put his hand on the cloth. There are some players who use a lot of talc and leave white smudges all over the table. I think that's bad to the point of being unsportsmanlike. I don't want to play through talc drifts left by my opponent, nor do I want him to leave talc mud on the balls when he racks with his muddy, sweaty hands. Yes, some players are that bad.
Related to this, here is how snooker players do it:
https://youtu.be/fF7NagUkjHQ?t=8m5s
https://youtu.be/fF7NagUkjHQ?t=8m5s
An interesting read, my first thoughts were if it's in any kind of decent tournament, the ref could call it a foul as most sports have a general rule about "Bringing the Game into Disrepute", and if in their opinion (the Refs), the player, being a lazy *****, or a smart ass by shoving their cue butt in the pocket has done just that, they are in their right to call the foul. Generally speaking, I don't like this behavior. (Shoving cues in pockets or leaving equipment on the table)
Interestingly though, if you search on YouTube, there was a video of a snooker match (maybe from the Crucible) where a player was going to use his cue extension, but didn't, and laid it on the table. When he shot his shot, the cue ball traveled around the table and hit the cue extension that he forgot about. This was called a foul..... but not until the cue ball hit the extension. Snooker tournaments usually expect a high level of behavior, but apparently laying the equipment on the table was acceptable.......Go Figure.
Edit.... Doe.... Just realised link to youtube shot I was thinking about was posted a couple of posts above.......
Interestingly though, if you search on YouTube, there was a video of a snooker match (maybe from the Crucible) where a player was going to use his cue extension, but didn't, and laid it on the table. When he shot his shot, the cue ball traveled around the table and hit the cue extension that he forgot about. This was called a foul..... but not until the cue ball hit the extension. Snooker tournaments usually expect a high level of behavior, but apparently laying the equipment on the table was acceptable.......Go Figure.
Edit.... Doe.... Just realised link to youtube shot I was thinking about was posted a couple of posts above.......
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What happens when I leave the bottom of my break jump cue in the pocket after my inning is over and my opponent makes a shot an the cue ball goes round the table and is going to go into the pocket but it hits my break jump butt sitting in the pocket and the cue ball stays on the table?
What would happen if my opponent shoots an object ball toward the pocket where I left my break jump butt and the OB hits the protruding butt left in the pocket and caroms into the pocket (it might have hit the point and not gone in)?
The what ifs can go on forever. I've seen players pushing the envelope (taking the only piece of chalk off of the table, putting their hands really close to a cluster of balls as they are leaving the table, knocking chalk onto the floor, throwing their cue stick on the floor, etc.) just to get their opponent out of sync. By the time enough of these "distractions" are compounded, the distracted player has no chance of playing their regular game and calling a foul at that time does the honest player no good.
JoeyA
What would happen if my opponent shoots an object ball toward the pocket where I left my break jump butt and the OB hits the protruding butt left in the pocket and caroms into the pocket (it might have hit the point and not gone in)?
The what ifs can go on forever. I've seen players pushing the envelope (taking the only piece of chalk off of the table, putting their hands really close to a cluster of balls as they are leaving the table, knocking chalk onto the floor, throwing their cue stick on the floor, etc.) just to get their opponent out of sync. By the time enough of these "distractions" are compounded, the distracted player has no chance of playing their regular game and calling a foul at that time does the honest player no good.
JoeyA
I think I agree with Joey A
Interestingly under wpa rules the Referee is allowed to assist a player by clearing the pockets, getting and replacing a bridge or even holding the light out of the way if necessary during a shot.
So I don't know why the player or the ref couldn't have just had the ref hold the butt since that is within his purview and in the interest of expediting play. I do believe that this point should be addressed in Section 8 of the wpa regulations with an explicit statement that it is the referee's responsibility if there is a referee to hold the butt of the cue. And if there is no referee to hold the butt rule 6.12 or 6.16 apply.
As I see it do we really want to have a disagreement over weather a ball hit the cue butt in the pocket or not when there isn't a referee present. Its absurd to allow lazy careless behavior to penalize the faultless seated player just set the butt off the table anywhere else.
- -WPA rule 6.12 Cue Stick on the Table If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without having a hand on the stick, it is a foul. (his hand is not on the butt of the cue)
- -WPA rule 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (h) using equipment inappropriately. (the equipment in question is the pocket)
Interestingly under wpa rules the Referee is allowed to assist a player by clearing the pockets, getting and replacing a bridge or even holding the light out of the way if necessary during a shot.
So I don't know why the player or the ref couldn't have just had the ref hold the butt since that is within his purview and in the interest of expediting play. I do believe that this point should be addressed in Section 8 of the wpa regulations with an explicit statement that it is the referee's responsibility if there is a referee to hold the butt of the cue. And if there is no referee to hold the butt rule 6.12 or 6.16 apply.
As I see it do we really want to have a disagreement over weather a ball hit the cue butt in the pocket or not when there isn't a referee present. Its absurd to allow lazy careless behavior to penalize the faultless seated player just set the butt off the table anywhere else.
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