CA versus auto finish
- Thread starter Jcat
- Start date
As some general rules, Super glue is a little harder finish. The super glue takes more hands on skill to apply as it takes more sanding. It also tends to show imperfections more than the finishes that stay wet longer. Super glue dries faster which is a plus and requires no expensive equipment to apply. Both are toxic and need good ventilation and respirator protection. Most auto clears flex a little more so they don't crack around the ring work as super glues. I feel the better auto clear coats are a little better finish and much easier to buff the scratches out of. The autpo clears do put off fumes for many hours while curing, so the toxicity is in the air longer and therefore probably the more dangerous one to use. Others can add to this list of pros and cons.
I used CA on my first 100 cues. These cues are mostly in local players hands and I have to look at them daily. I see more dents and chips in those cues then I like.
Benson built a lot of cues for the players in my area and I see major chipping in his cues. They have 10-15 years abuse on them. He applied the CA super thick (.030" or thicker is my guess) and his cues didn't dent like my old cues but the chipping was twice as bad.
IMO. CA is brittle. If you don't have the room for a spray booth West Systems Epoxy is your best bet. Jim Lee is doing a great finish with West Systems and might give you advice. If you have room to spray auto clear there is no substitute clear that will compare long term.
Benson built a lot of cues for the players in my area and I see major chipping in his cues. They have 10-15 years abuse on them. He applied the CA super thick (.030" or thicker is my guess) and his cues didn't dent like my old cues but the chipping was twice as bad.
IMO. CA is brittle. If you don't have the room for a spray booth West Systems Epoxy is your best bet. Jim Lee is doing a great finish with West Systems and might give you advice. If you have room to spray auto clear there is no substitute clear that will compare long term.
The CA is just an alternative to doing it right. I don't care if you use auto finish, one of the very good new WB finishes that are out now or just a general poly spray finish, they will all be better in the long run then CA. Ca is by no means easy to apply so if that is the reason to use it spraying is by far easier. Ca cracks, develops spider web lines and chips. It is also difficult to repair once the worst happens. You will hate it when people bring those cues back to fix, and they will. It is also very toxic. Tim Scruggs had a customer in the shop and they were doing something with CA and the guy was so over come by it he had to be taken to the hospital. They thought he was having a heart attack. If you want to work on cues, refinish repair of build cues get the right equipment and do it right. I know this is not what you want to hear and I will probably get blasted by someone who uses CA who can't be objective, but the stuff in my opinion is no good for finish. Do you really want to take a cue that you have dozens of hours in and is worth a lot or $'s and begin dumping super glue all over it?
Tap, Tap. I have the proper answer for those who might be offended by your thoughts on CA.
If you did a search it was a pore one as this has been discussed about as much as any subject on this forum.
Auto finish pluses:
1. probably one of the very best finishes.
2. very high, deep shine.
3. pretty easy to apply
cons:
1. it can kill you
2. it can harm or kill others in your your household
3. it can easily harm your liver land other internal organs through absorption through your skin
4. can do extensive damage to your lungs quickly
5. equipment to do a good, legal job can be incredibly expensive
6. extremely flammable, if you spray in your home your home owners insurance will not cover fire damage
7. most who use auto finish are doing it illegally
Super glue finish:
1. It can be put on at home legally
2. it is very clear
3. I consider it a tip glue only and the very thought of using it for a finish sends chills up my spine
cons:
1. brittle
2. often has a haze
3. degrades fairly quickly
4. makes slightly different shades of phenolic stand out
I use auto finish myself but there are many finishes that look pretty good with out the severe drawbacks that auto finish affords other than super glue which, in my opinion, is used by no one but complete amateurs who are likely to stay that way taking such short cuts.
Dick
I use a Superglue finish. I don't have the means or the finances for a booth, gun, and ventilation a good spray requires. What do you recommend for me, by the way I am new to cuemaking and my finish in my opinion is pretty good. It is very hands on, extrmely cost effective and very glossy. If put on wrong it can have all of the drawbacks listed in previous posts but if you take your time it can be a very good finish. In my opinion only of course. I would love to upgrade to the spray just to let everyone know LOL....:smile:
And then there is UV.
Richard, you may not (yet) be a National Treasure but you certainly are an AZB Treasure. That's the best laugh I've had all day, Thanx.
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To be honest, if you are building cues or doing any repairs and making a few bucks you have to reinvest it back into the business. One or two cue sales can get you a decent HVLP sprayer. Most guys build their own booths there is a lot of info out there that you can fine that will give you ideas. You can use a good WB finish that will give you an outstanding finish. Is safe to use you won't blow up or burn down your house. These finishes improve by leaps and bounds and are not what was around even a few years ago. Back to my original comment though.
I have a tenant who was telling me he was having trouble paying for medications it was costing him $100.00 a month. Mean time he gets up every morning walks to the Starbucks down the street, has his coffee. I see the pizza delivery guy like three times a week. I bet he throws away $300.00 a month he can't even account for while not being able to put a $100.00 together at one time to pay for a prescription. People seem to nickle and dime themselves out of their money on a continuing bases. This is not to knock you because I don't know you or your circumstances, just some food for thought. Next time you put on a ferrule or tip put that money in a drawer and put it towards your business. Otherwise you will be saying the same thing next year at this time. No matter how small you believe you are the principles of business still apply. You have to budget a certain amount of your income to reinvest and grow your business.
It should be pointed out that you do not have to spray the new W/B finishes to achieve top shelf results.
im going to assume you already got an air compressor
if you dont...................
approx what i got wrapped up in my setup
4 gallon air compressor $125
mini detail hvlp spray gun $27
big ass exhaust fan $50
good mask $40
$20 in materials to build my booth
i didnt see anyone above mention CA is cyanide
if you want to talk more about this, hit me up anytime
brent
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Most of what I posted had already been posted before me by others but actually I had started that post immediately after the original posting but I kept getting interrupted by customers before finishing and posting. Sorry about the mis-spelling of the correct poor/pour/pore for the situation. My spell checker doesn't catch mis-spelled words when they are spelled correctly.
What some of you may not realize is that there is much more expense to spraying auto clear than just a compressor and gun. To be legal in most places you must have a self contained spray booth which can cost as much as 30,000.00 itself. Most states and municipalities now have restrictions where none of the spray may enter the atmosphere so that the spray must be cleansed first. This type of equipment is not cheap. Most people, including myself, just vent there over spray outside but this is illegal and can bring some pretty hefty fines if caught. It is for this reason that some many paint shops have went out of business.
Other finishes have been mentioned but the original poster only stipulated auto and s/g. There are many types of finish, none of which is safe to use without proper protection. Water born finish may sound safe and I'm sure is safer than auto but if you breath any into your lungs it is doing great damage. I've had a UV system for about 7 or 8 years now but I could never get the original shine back after rubbing out. Mcdermott and those big outfits use UV but they spent a fortune on their equipment so that there cues don't need rubbing out. I now use UV as a filler but when built up I spray auto as it's so easy to rub out. If I knew of a UV finish that worked as advertised I would use it but so far I've not found it.
There are many other dipping and brushing self leveling finishes but I've never used them on cues so I can not relate any information on them.
I'm sorry about being so blunt in the messages that I relate the last year or two but I'm getting older and grumpier and I've just become so frustrated listening to poor techniques as far as cues are concerned. It takes so little effort to to build correctly in the first place instead of ruining your reputation early on in your career. This forum has an absolute wealth of information on proper techniques and materials so that no one needs to use methods that are so sub-par.
Dick
What some of you may not realize is that there is much more expense to spraying auto clear than just a compressor and gun. To be legal in most places you must have a self contained spray booth which can cost as much as 30,000.00 itself. Most states and municipalities now have restrictions where none of the spray may enter the atmosphere so that the spray must be cleansed first. This type of equipment is not cheap. Most people, including myself, just vent there over spray outside but this is illegal and can bring some pretty hefty fines if caught. It is for this reason that some many paint shops have went out of business.
Other finishes have been mentioned but the original poster only stipulated auto and s/g. There are many types of finish, none of which is safe to use without proper protection. Water born finish may sound safe and I'm sure is safer than auto but if you breath any into your lungs it is doing great damage. I've had a UV system for about 7 or 8 years now but I could never get the original shine back after rubbing out. Mcdermott and those big outfits use UV but they spent a fortune on their equipment so that there cues don't need rubbing out. I now use UV as a filler but when built up I spray auto as it's so easy to rub out. If I knew of a UV finish that worked as advertised I would use it but so far I've not found it.
There are many other dipping and brushing self leveling finishes but I've never used them on cues so I can not relate any information on them.
I'm sorry about being so blunt in the messages that I relate the last year or two but I'm getting older and grumpier and I've just become so frustrated listening to poor techniques as far as cues are concerned. It takes so little effort to to build correctly in the first place instead of ruining your reputation early on in your career. This forum has an absolute wealth of information on proper techniques and materials so that no one needs to use methods that are so sub-par.
Dick
Try epoxy coat then water base clear.
According to BSI, CA does not contain cyanide and is not toxic...
http://www.bsi-inc.com/Pages/hobby/hfaq/index.html#6
And here is an MSDS sheet on CA from Sur-Lok Adhesives...
http://www.surlok.com/msds/1409.htm
Another CA MSDS...
http://www.accumetricinc.com/boss/MSDS/BOSS181.pdf
And I know how everyone just loves Wikipedia, which has this to say about CA toxicity...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate#Toxicity
And just for comparison, here's an MSDS sheet on Dupont Chromaclear...
http://www.klinesauto.com/PDFs/Nov2007Tech/DupG2-7779sMSDS.pdf
http://www.bsi-inc.com/Pages/hobby/hfaq/index.html#6
And here is an MSDS sheet on CA from Sur-Lok Adhesives...
http://www.surlok.com/msds/1409.htm
Another CA MSDS...
http://www.accumetricinc.com/boss/MSDS/BOSS181.pdf
And I know how everyone just loves Wikipedia, which has this to say about CA toxicity...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate#Toxicity
And just for comparison, here's an MSDS sheet on Dupont Chromaclear...
http://www.klinesauto.com/PDFs/Nov2007Tech/DupG2-7779sMSDS.pdf
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According to BSI, CA does not contain cyanide and is not toxic...
http://www.bsi-inc.com/Pages/hobby/hfaq/index.html#6
i stand corrected
it's not cyanide, but some other unnamed gas that will burn your eyes and lungs
OK, many tks for all the replies guys. You gave me the info I was looking for. I don't build cues any more nor do I intend to start again due to age and rapid memory loss. I asked cause I saw a cue on ebay that was really nice and fit my eye, but they use CA finish and i wanted to know the long of it. If it is going to crack and spider web with use then i need to stay away from cues with that finish. Besides, I seem to be harder on cues than most.
PS: I guess my search was "pore", but so was your spell checker, but all is forgiven, 2 old grumpy men are allowed to woof on each other a little
:smile:
PS: I guess my search was "pore", but so was your spell checker, but all is forgiven, 2 old grumpy men are allowed to woof on each other a little
:smile:
From my understanding the biggest danger is the dust produced when sanding it. The manufacture never intended it to be sanded and released into the air once dried. I don't know if that is taken into account when they evaluate them as it is not intended to be used as a finish. Breathing in any dust is harmful and I suppose some more then others. Also I would have to assume that not all CA's are formulated the same.
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