Can a poolroom make it without liquor nowdays?

We have one hall left in the city where I am. If it didn't sell alcohol, I would
choose pool over beer any day. I consider my pool nights, a night out with all the trimmings, beer, wings etc. Believe it or not, when I met my wife and we first started shooting pool together, we spent $1800.00 a month in the hall. Half was table time and the other was beer and food. We came close to paying one staff members wages.

I would think it would be a tough grind to run a hall on just table time and snack food alone. These days a person needs all the extras just to keep afloat. Alcohol, food, VLTs etc.

Yeah, I also can do without the loud juke music, altho I like a little tastefull background music.
 
Medalist said:
1st State Billiards in Dover Delaware. Just family run, no employees. I think they own the building. They sell a little food but not much. It's all pool time and they have no desire to sell alcohol. It's a great room with great players and they seem to make a living at it. They get lots of kids there also of all ages. A good safe place for them to go. They also have a small room with a couple poker machines. Some kind of quirky Delaware rule allows it. Maybe that brings in a few bucks.
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That is a really nice pool room. The only flaw I see with it is the location. If you don't already know where it is the chance of new clientelle finding it is pretty slim. I found out about it through word of mouth.

They do a decent business, but they have cut back the hours it is open in recent yrs (used to open at 2pm) so they might not be as successful as you imagine.

The tables are kept in very good condition and the 4 Gabriels are superb.

I believe the family owns a couple of chinese resturants. Jimmy told me he wanted the pool hall and his wife wanted another resturant. He got his way, but I think the other business helps keep the pool room doors open.

If I want to drink while I am playing there I just bring in a half pint or flask and mix my own the mixer right out of the vending machine. Never had a problem doing this, but then again I don't get out of hand after a cocktail or two.

:cool:
 
We have been doing it for 4 years

If you think you want to make a lot of money, open a bar or restaurant with pool as a sideline. In this area, though, several restaurants and bars go tits up monthly (Flint, Mi).
We sell time, snacks, cues and some minor repairs. We only recently bought a lathe. We are known for clean environment with the best equipment around (5 9' Gcs, 3BB, and a 6 by 12 for golf).
We make the nut plus a little for one reason. Our family (not related) who help run the place. The room belongs to them. Each works a shift or cleans once a week and play as members. That way, there are always people around to play who have a stake in the room.
Greed, or the atmosphere that all we want is your $ will kill a place like this. The "good" players know they cannot lay around drinking coffee waiting to rob a sucker. We like action, but you bring it with you or we will arrange it.
So far, it works. If I really wanted to make money, I would go to work at something else. This way, we get to do exactly what we want to do every day. How many people can say that??
 
The Dog Has the right house recipe

I've been to the Dogs House. Great place, nice atmosphere and the tables are kept up very well. I think why it works is, if you want to have a pool hall don't try to reach for the $$$$$ stars. Keep the costs as low as possible and the people that love pool will come.....

FYI - He does great tip replacement..
 
Where i live pool rooms don't sell drinks or food. I know pool here is not The same you are used to have in America but...
 
Masayoshi said:
Prime example: Hardtimes, Bellflower. Although its not as busy as it once was.
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Yep, Hard Times doesn't serve alcohol and they don't even have a long list on their menu either. They do open at 11AM and close at 1 or 2AM. We know there's a lot of good players here but I also love to see the whole family just walking in and having fun playing!
 
dirtydog48 said:
If you think you want to make a lot of money, open a bar or restaurant with pool as a sideline. In this area, though, several restaurants and bars go tits up monthly (Flint, Mi).
We sell time, snacks, cues and some minor repairs. We only recently bought a lathe. We are known for clean environment with the best equipment around (5 9' Gcs, 3BB, and a 6 by 12 for golf).
We make the nut plus a little for one reason. Our family (not related) who help run the place. The room belongs to them. Each works a shift or cleans once a week and play as members. That way, there are always people around to play who have a stake in the room.
Greed, or the atmosphere that all we want is your $ will kill a place like this. The "good" players know they cannot lay around drinking coffee waiting to rob a sucker. We like action, but you bring it with you or we will arrange it.
So far, it works. If I really wanted to make money, I would go to work at something else. This way, we get to do exactly what we want to do every day. How many people can say that??
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Let me guess, something prevents you from getting a beverage license be it local laws , zoning or something. I doubt you don't sell alcohol by choice and would if you could. NO ONE SHOULD OPEN A PLACE WITHOUT AT LEAST THE OPTION TO SELL ALCOHOL. You don't have to serve one drink if you don't want to for what ever reason you may have, but the value of your investment will be worth many times more with that license in the drawer even you personally don't sell the first drink. There is no upside to not having a license.

The thing with the beer is the two business, bar and pool room, augment each other. More people come in because you sell beer and they play longer and spend more money. I have owned both and it isn't even a close call. You don't open a business and pour your heart and soul into it to just eek out a living or even starve. You want to be successful. My place with the beverage license made more money from just the package good, six packs, that people came in to buy then the other pool room with just pool and some sandwiches made total. Not all the money comes directly from the sale of the beer. There is a combined dynamic where the "Whole is greater than the sum of its parts". It is a hard thing to work out on paper but when you see it in practice the difference is astounding.
 
I know that some major chain restaurants make about 65% of their daily profit from alcohol sales. A pool hall could make it without alcohol sales but it would need to be in a good market with favorable rent/costs.

Why would you want a pool room/hall without alcohol? At worst your loosing out on extra income...
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
I believe Hard Times is dry, no booze!
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Yep. :grin:

The pool hall I go to in Japan is also alcohol free...By choice. The manager doesn't want to have to deal with drunks (although that's not to say I don't come in completely shit faced on rare occasion, he puts up with it considering I am probably his best customer). His income consists of table time, a vending machine, and selling tips and stuff (he puts them on for free).
 
Masayoshi said:
Yep. :grin:

The pool hall I go to in Japan is also alcohol free...By choice. The manager doesn't want to have to deal with drunks (although that's not to say I don't come in completely shit faced on rare occasion, he puts up with it considering I am probably his best customer). His income consists of table time, a vending machine, and selling tips and stuff (he puts them on for free).
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Your comment is the biggest misconception. There is a difference between a pool room that sells beer and a bar with pool tables. The pool room that sells beer the main draw is the pool tables. They don't even need a sit down bar just a service area. The average adult would much rather in most cases have a cold beer then a coke a cola. They don't come in to get drunk any more the then they do when they take the family out to dinner and order a beer or wine with their meal.

Most all sit down restaurants serve alcohol with no problems. Then you also have the incentive of maybe having to put up with an occasional drunk now and then and netting $190,000 compared to maybe $50,000 and working 6 shifts a week your self to keep your head above water. When you invest your hard earned money it is a business and worth running like a business, providing a nice living for yourself and your family.
 
macguy said:
Your comment is the biggest misconception. There is a difference between a pool room that sells beer and a bar with pool tables. The pool room that sells beer the main draw is the pool tables. They don't even need a sit down bar just a service area. The average adult would much rather in most cases have a cold beer then a coke a cola. They don't come in to get drunk any more the then they do when they take the family out to dinner and order a beer or wine with their meal.

Most all sit down restaurants serve alcohol with no problems. Then you also have the incentive of maybe having to put up with an occasional drunk now and then and netting $190,000 compared to maybe $50,000 and working 6 shifts a week your self to keep your head above water. When you invest your hard earned money it is a business and worth running like a business, providing a nice living for yourself and your family.
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How is it a misconception? I have been to many pool halls that sell alcohol and most if not all of them are filled with drunks on the weekend. Maybe not falling over the table drunk, but drunk enough to disturb serious players. Some people aren't motivated only by greed. I know for a fact that the manager of my pool hall is a great massage therapist and could get a part timer to run the pool hall for him while making money giving massages, but he doesn't because he wants to provide a great atmosphere and do something he loves. Honestly, $140,000 a year is a small price to pay when it makes the difference between enjoying your job and not enjoying your job.
 
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Masayoshi said:
Prime example: Hardtimes, Bellflower. Although its not as busy as it once was.
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You can bet your a$$ they'd be selling at least beer & wine...if it wasn't against the city ordnance;) With the declining customer base at Hardtimes, do you think you'll be able to make that same statement.... 2 years from now?;)

Glen

PS. How many owners have there been now....since Chuck first sold it?
 
realkingcobra said:
You can bet your a$$ they'd be selling at least beer & wine...if it wasn't against the city ordnance;) With the declining customer base at Hardtimes, do you think you'll be able to make that same statement.... 2 years from now?;)

Glen

PS. How many owners have there been now....since Chuck first sold it?
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True, but you should also consider the fact that despite not serving alcohol, Hardtimes has become basically the center of pool on the west coast and has stayed open for more than 20 years.

It has had several owners since Chuck (3, I think), but considering its been more than a decade, I don't think that's so out of the ordinary.
 
No bar , no pinball machines , no bowling alleys , just pool , nothing else - this is Ames' , mister .
And Ames' went out of business . Most famous poolroom in NYC , the most populated city in the US at the time . But straight table time w/o something else to support it isn't gonna work - alcohol is the easiest , and usually most profitable answer . But be creative - there may be other solutions . Maybe stick 2 pizza ovens in the back , and hope that pizza delivery will pay all your other bills - after all , Papa Johns started out in a closet at his fathers bar !
Just something to consider about that , though - Pizza grease & BBQ sauce off of Ribs don't wash off the patrons' hands so easily , and transfer to your felt , GREATLY reducing the life of your expensive cloth .
 
No

I will not sell alcohol and have not sought a license. Ruins tables and atmosphere and I will not promote that particular addiction.
macguy said:
Let me guess, something prevents you from getting a beverage license be it local laws , zoning or something. I doubt you don't sell alcohol by choice and would if you could. NO ONE SHOULD OPEN A PLACE WITHOUT AT LEAST THE OPTION TO SELL ALCOHOL. You don't have to serve one drink if you don't want to for what ever reason you may have, but the value of your investment will be worth many times more with that license in the drawer even you personally don't sell the first drink. There is no upside to not having a license.

The thing with the beer is the two business, bar and pool room, augment each other. More people come in because you sell beer and they play longer and spend more money. I have owned both and it isn't even a close call. You don't open a business and pour your heart and soul into it to just eek out a living or even starve. You want to be successful. My place with the beverage license made more money from just the package good, six packs, that people came in to buy then the other pool room with just pool and some sandwiches made total. Not all the money comes directly from the sale of the beer. There is a combined dynamic where the "Whole is greater than the sum of its parts". It is a hard thing to work out on paper but when you see it in practice the difference is astounding.
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Yes they can...IF...

1. They have decent, properly-maintained equipment.
2. Well-established reputation.
3. Owners actually care about pool-players.
4. Tournaments (well-managed).
5. Decent food
6. Occasional action
7. Existence of a "house-pro".
8. League-play (APA, BCA, TAP).
9. Did I mention tournaments?

This is not a recipe for guaranteed success, just my humble opinions.
With pool halls closing left and right one wonders what the magic formula might be.

Plus there are so many variations to consider:

One person's action room is another person's dive.
One person's great, fun-filled family type room is boring for an action fiend.
No music, too much music, no jukebox, live bands, bad food, good food, food too expensive, too much for pool-time, no pool equipment, no in-house repairs, no vending machines, owner is an a**hole, etc.

So many reasons for people not to go to a poolroom! When you consider it is basically a room with pool tables it is amazing as to what else other than pool people complain about!

I just listed listed items I would like to see in a room. I don't care if a room serves liquor, or restaurant-quality food, but most league players do...and on and on.
 
dirtydog48 said:
I will not sell alcohol and have not sought a license. Ruins tables and atmosphere and I will not promote that particular addiction.
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No sir, alcohol don't ruin the tables, or the ADULTS that come there to play pool, but what does ruin the atmosphere...is the lack of money to correctly maintain the pool tables...or managements inability to detour those that would rather get drunk, or cause problems...than play pool...from coming back;)

Glen

PS. The Titanic was once thought to be...unsinkable;) 27 years in this business as a table mechanic, also having owned 3 different pool halls...probably don't know a thing, and couldn't be as smart as someone in the business today:rolleyes:
 
I think it would be very difficult to start a new Pool Room today without the sale of Alcohol just from the financial side. However those that do make a go of it, should be applauded for their stand on what they believe in.

But IMO, Alcohol in itself is not a problem, when was the last time you saw a bottle of Vodka walk in and ask for some action and get all loud and pissed off?

The people drinking it maybe, the staff serving it perhaps, other people playing alongside loud mouth, obnoxious drunks are also at times to blame for not saying anything but Alcohol not IMHO.
 
inside_english said:
1. They have decent, properly-maintained equipment.
2. Well-established reputation.
3. Owners actually care about pool-players.
4. Tournaments (well-managed).
5. Decent food
6. Occasional action
7. Existence of a "house-pro".
8. League-play (APA, BCA, TAP).
9. Did I mention tournaments?

This is not a recipe for guaranteed success, just my humble opinions.
With pool halls closing left and right one wonders what the magic formula might be.

Plus there are so many variations to consider:

One person's action room is another person's dive.
One person's great, fun-filled family type room is boring for an action fiend.
No music, too much music, no jukebox, live bands, bad food, good food, food too expensive, too much for pool-time, no pool equipment, no in-house repairs, no vending machines, owner is an a**hole, etc.

So many reasons for people not to go to a poolroom! When you consider it is basically a room with pool tables it is amazing as to what else other than pool people complain about!

I just listed listed items I would like to see in a room. I don't care if a room serves liquor, or restaurant-quality food, but most league players do...and on and on.
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Do the math, 20 9ft table room @ $5.00hr @ national average 5.5hrs per day rental = $25.00 per day per table = $15,000 a month gross income.

Annual gross income....if doing national average rental time = $180,000

6,000sf room @ $3000 a month rent....................................-$36,000
electic...............$800 a month........................................... -$9,600
Insurance.........$1000 a month...........................................-$12,000
Annual table maint cost........................................................-$7500
Month tbl pmt....$2400 a month...........................................-$28,800

Take off what I've already listed and you're down to $86,100.00 taxable income.

Now...subtract employee payroll...and everything else involved in running this kind of business...and you'll see there's nothing left to promote and run pool tournaments...or any other events that require financial sponsorship. How about the cost of getting the pool room ready to be opened in the first place?

AND...don't expect to get to the national average of play on your tables within the first 18 to 24 months...at least.

I just through this out there....because I've already owned 3 pool rooms in the past...and would NEVER do it again without FULL alcohol sales along with a FULL restaurant.

Glen
 
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