Can Diamond Rails-Cushions be Installed Wrong?

Ok I have just checked on my table and if I hit the ball from the corner pocket at the diamond just past the side pocket ( I refer to that diamond as the 5th diamond ) it will go three rails into the corner pocket opposite the starting pocket. Every table can play different though as stated previously.

It seems to me that you may be simply experiencing the difference between how a Diamond table responds compared to a typical bar box like a valley or dynamo. The response speed of the cushions on a Diamond are designed to be fast and mimic the playing experience on a 9 ft table. Ball speed is very important on any bank shots. It is all about practice.

People will tell you to get a table just like the ones you play on most. Personally I am glad I went with the Diamond overall. This way I know as my skills improve I can take them to any table. If I would have gone out and gotten a valley table because that is what is in most bars near me I may not have been able to adjust to the increased speeds in say a BCA tournament. It is something you get used to over time. When you do decide to get a new table if you go with Diamond I would highly recommend ordering through Manning Cues as Heath will answer all your questions and give you outstanding customer service all the way through the process.
 
Kevin3824 said:
Ok I have just checked on my table and if I hit the ball from the corner pocket at the diamond just past the side pocket ( I refer to that diamond as the 5th diamond ) it will go three rails into the corner pocket opposite the starting pocket. Every table can play different though as stated previously.

It seems to me that you may be simply experiencing the difference between how a Diamond table responds compared to a typical bar box like a valley or dynamo. The response speed of the cushions on a Diamond are designed to be fast and mimic the playing experience on a 9 ft table. Ball speed is very important on any bank shots. It is all about practice.

People will tell you to get a table just like the ones you play on most. Personally I am glad I went with the Diamond overall. This way I know as my skills improve I can take them to any table. If I would have gone out and gotten a valley table because that is what is in most bars near me I may not have been able to adjust to the increased speeds in say a BCA tournament. It is something you get used to over time. When you do decide to get a new table if you go with Diamond I would highly recommend ordering through Manning Cues as Heath will answer all your questions and give you outstanding customer service all the way through the process.
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I think you are writing about diamond #3 counted from the end rail towards you. So... your table goes to 3 then to 2 (opposite long rail) and into adjacent corner pocket. The standard test is by applying 1 tip of running english. I'll bet you hit the CB in the center to get the results you did. Most Diamonds go 2-3 and back into the corner but that is with the correct application of running english. Very important to set up the test correctly.
 
denwhit said:
I think you are writing about diamond #3 counted from the end rail towards you. So... your table goes to 3 then to 2 (opposite long rail) and into adjacent corner pocket. The standard test is by applying 1 tip of running english. I'll bet you hit the CB in the center to get the results you did. Most Diamonds go 2-3 and back into the corner but that is with the correct application of running english. Very important to set up the test correctly.
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Good point. I test the tables both ways in case there are blocker balls when playing. You are correct, no English 3-2, running 2-3
 
Diamond cushions are ridiculously fast and bank significantly different than a Gold Crown. My only experience is during tournaments with new cloths, so I'm not sure it's generally applicable, though the speed is DEFINITELY A LOT faster than a GC (even with new cushions) under the same conditions. I don't understand why this is desirable. It takes a lot to get used to it, that's for sure.
 
jtompilot said:
Good point. I test the tables both ways in case there are blocker balls when playing. You are correct, no English 3-2, running 2-3
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So then this validates my point that needing to shoot at diamond #1 to even get close to making the 3-rail shot just isn't right. The other poster shoots at diamond #3 to make the ball. I refuse to believe that this is just a "normal" difference between tables.

In fact, when shooting at diamond #1 the CB still came up short and that's when it hit the 3rd rail literally just before scratching in the side pocket. So it's basically not even possible to make the 3-rail shot on the table I was playing on with running english.
 
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Get_A_Grip said:
So then this validates my point that needing to shoot at diamond #1 to even get close to making the 3-rail shot just isn't right. The other poster shoots at diamond #3 to make the ball. I refuse to believe that this is just a "normal" difference between tables.

In fact, when shooting at diamond #1 the CB still came up short and that's when it hit the 3rd rail literally just before scratching in the side pocket. So it's basically not even possible to make the 3-rail shot on the table I was playing on with running english.
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I agree, there is something wrong with that table. Hope RKC or Mark will chime in. Always good to hear from the experts.
 
I just tried 5 7' Diamonds. 4 went -at the second diamond, but one did require hitting about the 1st diamond (as the OP described).
 
GideonF said:
I just tried 5 7' Diamonds. 4 went -at the second diamond, but one did require hitting about the 1st diamond (as the OP described).
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Well THAT is interesting. At least you could still make the ball hitting the first diamond on that one table. On the one I'm talking about, hitting the first diamond and it still comes up about 4-6 inches short.

Now I'd like to hear if there is some adjustment to the rails that can be made.
 
The cushions are not the problem, the table is either having humidity, balls cleaned wrong, or dirty ball issues, could even be the wear on the cloth. So, to eliminate all those possibilities take some armorall' spray it on a rag, the wipe the cloth down on the nose of the cushions, then see how the table plays, as after doing that the table table banks will play long, if they don't then there's a cushion problem.
 
realkingcobra said:
The cushions are not the problem, the table is either having humidity, balls cleaned wrong, or dirty ball issues, could even be the wear on the cloth. So, to eliminate all those possibilities take some armorall' spray it on a rag, the wipe the cloth down on the nose of the cushions, then see how the table plays, as after doing that the table table banks will play long, if they don't then there's a cushion problem.
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The balls didn't appear really dirty by just looking at them, but in a bar, I'm sure that nobody ever cleans the balls. I will have to remember to bring a rag soaked in Armor All into the bar and if the shot is the same, then trying your Armor All suggestion.
 
I use to do a trick shot, 3 rail the cue ball to play an object pall in the side pocket on the same side of the table that you would normally shoot a 3 rail to the corner pocket, I'd wipe the cue ball down with mop,n glow floor finish first....talk about banking short....LMAO
 
realkingcobra said:
The cushions are not the problem, the table is either having humidity, balls cleaned wrong, or dirty ball issues, could even be the wear on the cloth. So, to eliminate all those possibilities take some armorall' spray it on a rag, the wipe the cloth down on the nose of the cushions, then see how the table plays, as after doing that the table table banks will play long, if they don't then there's a cushion problem.
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Another question for you please. Could someone install the rails from a red-labeled diamond on a blue-labeled diamond? If they did, is there a way to know?

The reason that I ask is that this bar had originally two used red label tables and the manager told me that he was supposed to get two NEW tables per their agreement. So these blue label tables are new to the bar, but honestly, they don't look brand new to me.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
They still have the Artemis cushions which tend to be "grabby" when the cloth wears out.
And the table is still at the mercy of the factory workers.

The table mech that installs the table has probably less contribution to the banking characteristics of the table than the factory worker who set those rubbers. Unless the mech is really a hack.
Never mind the pocket openings. Some have used protractor to measure the corner angles and they've been around 142*-142*.
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Joey, youre the king of misinformation buddy, Diamond has never used Artemis cushions on their 7 or 8ft tables, and don't use 142-143 corner pocket miter angles;)
 
Cushions are like magnetic cue balls, a lot of times they're blamed for how a table plays when in fact they're not the problem at all. Just like checking the level of a Valley coin op pool table by rolling the magnetic cue ball on it to see if it rolls off, and when it does....the table MUST be out of level....right?
 
Get_A_Grip said:
So then this validates my point that needing to shoot at diamond #1 to even get close to making the 3-rail shot just isn't right. The other poster shoots at diamond #3 to make the ball. I refuse to believe that this is just a "normal" difference between tables.

In fact, when shooting at diamond #1 the CB still came up short and that's when it hit the 3rd rail literally just before scratching in the side pocket. So it's basically not even possible to make the 3-rail shot on the table I was playing on with running english.
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GideonF said:
I just tried 5 7' Diamonds. 4 went -at the second diamond, but one did require hitting about the 1st diamond (as the OP described).
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realkingcobra said:
The cushions are not the problem, the table is either having humidity, balls cleaned wrong, or dirty ball issues, could even be the wear on the cloth. So, to eliminate all those possibilities take some armorall' spray it on a rag, the wipe the cloth down on the nose of the cushions, then see how the table plays, as after doing that the table table banks will play long, if they don't then there's a cushion problem.
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Glen,

It is not just a humidity or dirty-ball issue. I have had the same experience with every 7' Diamond table I have played on, including the ones at Felt in Denver which are kept fairly clean and are in a very dry environment. (I haven't tested 9' foot Diamonds because I have not been around them much.) Every table I tested at Felt during our BU Summer School Boot Camps kicked much shorter than what is expected on typical pool equipment. This makes it very difficult to teach people how to use traditional kicking and banking systems. Even slow-rolling one-rail kicks come up more than a 1/2 diamond short of what the typical through-diamond 2-to-1 system predicts.

It sure would be nice if Diamond could figure out exactly what causes this, whether it is the way they mount the rails, and/or the type of cushion they use, and/or the height of the cushion nose, and/or something else. It would be even nicer if Diamond, and all of the table mechanics that work on them, can find a ways to modify the tables so they play close to what traditional systems predict.

Thank you for doing what you can to help everybody identify and better understand what is causing Diamonds to kick so short along with possible ideas for how changes can be made to make the Diamonds play more like what is expected.

Regards,
Dave
 
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FYI, I just added the following disclaimer to my bank and kick shot aiming system resource page, based on my experiences and all of the reports I have seen from others:

NOTE - Traditional kicking and banking systems work fairly well on most pool equipment; although, adjustments will be required based on table conditions. Also, Diamond brand tables (especially the older "Red label" Diamonds) play much shorter than all other table brands, so significant adjustments will need to be made (by aiming down-table more) when playing on Diamond tables.

Regards,
Dave


dr_dave said:
Glen,

It is not just a humidity or dirty-ball issue. I have had the same experience with every 7' Diamond table I have played on, including the ones at Felt in Denver which are kept fairly clean and are in a very dry environment. (I haven't tested 9' foot Diamonds because I have not been around them much.) Every table I tested at Felt during our BU Summer School Boot Camps kicked much shorter than what is expected on typical pool equipment. This makes it very difficult to teach people how to use traditional kicking and banking systems. Even slow-rolling one-rail kicks come up more than a 1/2 diamond short of what the typical through-diamond 2-to-1 system predicts.

It sure would be nice if Diamond could figure out exactly what causes this, whether it is the way they mount the rails, and/or the type of cushion they use, and/or the height of the cushion nose, and/or something else. It would be even nicer if Diamond, and all of the table mechanics that work on them, can find a ways to modify the tables so they play close to what traditional systems predict.

Thank you for doing what you can to help everybody identify and better understand what is causing Diamonds to kick so short along with possible ideas for how changes can be made to make the Diamonds play more like what is expected.

Regards,
Dave
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dr_dave said:
Glen,

It is not just a humidity or dirty-ball issue. I have had the same experience with every 7' Diamond table I have played on, including the ones at Felt in Denver which are kept fairly clean and are in a very dry environment. (I haven't tested 9' foot Diamonds because I have not been around them much.) Every table I tested at Felt during our BU Summer School Boot Camps kicked much shorter than what is expected on typical pool equipment. This makes it very difficult to teach people how to use traditional kicking and banking systems. Even slow-rolling one-rail kicks come up more than a 1/2 diamond short of what the typical through-diamond 2-to-1 system predicts.

It sure would be nice if Diamond could figure out exactly what causes this, whether it is the way they mount the rails, and/or the type of cushion they use, and/or the height of the cushion nose, and/or something else. It would be even nicer if Diamond, and all of the table mechanics that work on them, can find a ways to modify the tables so they play close to what traditional systems predict.

Thank you for doing what you can to help everybody identify and better understand what is causing Diamonds to kick so short along with possible ideas for how changes can be made to make the Diamonds play more like what is expected.

Regards,
Dave
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What's strange about all this is that I can't relate to the banking short on Diamond tables after I rebuild them as they play as sweet as any table you could possibly name, I've never had a customer complain or tell me hey Glen, there's something wrong with the rails on my pool table...BUT, i have had some customers like a blast from the past call me and tell me their table no longer plays like it did when I was finished with it. Trying to remember back when I'd done the work, I'd ask them when I rebuilt the rails...answer....4 years ago, you don't remember?....LOL next question, when was the last time you had it recovered?...answer, NOT since you worked on it:eek:
 
dr_dave said:
FYI, I just added the following disclaimer to my bank and kick shot aiming system resource page, based on my experiences and all of the reports I have seen from others:

NOTE - Traditional kicking and banking systems work fairly well on most pool equipment; although, adjustments will be required based on table conditions. Also, Diamond brand tables (especially the older "Red label" Diamonds) play much shorter than all other table brands, so significant adjustments will need to be made (by aiming down-table more) when playing on Diamond tables.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Dave, I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone else, take friction out of the rails and then test how they bank.
 
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