Can pro players be better than they are now?

JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
We have all stood in awe of professional players seemingly playing perfect pool.

I wonder though if we have seen the pinnacle of playing ability?

I see so many pro matches and players are getting out of line and just making what look like unforced errors.

Pool being the solitary sport that it is in the USA and most of the world....where training is not structured, where very few players have real coaches and fewer still have coaches who travel with them.....is there still room for the pros to get better?

I think that there is. I think that if pool were treated more like a sport and players came up through a dedicated training system and the best players had full time coaches then I think we would see a higher level, perhaps a much higher level, than we currently have.

What do you think?
 
There's something to be said about being in combat to improve one's game. :wink:

Tournament Soldiers v. Action Players.

There's more tournament soldiers today than action players. Speaks volumes! :cool:
 
I agree with you JB. Right now pool as a sport is in the doldrums. Sure, the standard of play has definitely gotten better compared to the times of Mosconi, but I'd be really surprised to find someone today who's better than, say, Efren or Earl when they were in their prime--and that was in the 80s/90s!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiouALehFR8

Compare that to snooker and you can really see the difference. Every year, there is a rise in the number of century breaks made per tournaments. While no one is quite up to the level of Ronnie O'Sullivan yet, I'd say there are a lot of lower-ranking top 16 or higher-ranking top 32 players today who can give 80s Davis or 90s Hendry a run for their money.

So how can pool players as a whole increase their overall standard of play?

- We need to do away with the pervasive "action/gambling culture" that pool has stubbornly kept for the past few decades. We remove this mentality, and more people will start viewing pool as a proper sport, and not just a pub game.

- Second, we need an effective international governing body for pool that can organize regular tournaments with decent prize money and respectable TV coverage. More regional/international-level tournaments mean more exposure to world-class play. A higher prize money would give players an incentive to properly learn the game and hone their craft. A regular TV coverage would help expose pool to a wider younger audience--it need not be tournament coverage, mind you. An American version of Pot Black, perhaps?

- Standardization. The pool-playing world needs to come to a consensus to the type of equipment, the rules and THE GAME that needs to represent pool. Different pool games require different skill sets--different types of equipment also play a part to some extent. Are we gonna stick to 9-ball? 10-ball? Revive straight pool? Or maybe one-pocket, which hardly anyone outside of the US knows, let alone plays? 10-ft table or bar table? Slow nap cloth or Strachan? Tight pockets or buckets for pockets? Ideally, I'd want the game that covers all bases, and would not alienate players who have been playing one particular game all their life. I believe focusing on one game can accelerate the overall standard of play for that game since that would mean more people playing it.

There is considerable room for improvement in the overall standard of play. As far as development of a cue sport and its players goes, what World Snooker has achieved and how they achieved it is something the pool-playing world should take notes from. There is only so much online livestreams, bush-league tournaments, "on the road" lifestyle and "learn-as-you-go" mentality can do.
 
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O'SulliReyes said:
I agree with you JB. Right now pool as a sport is in the doldrums. Sure, the standard of play has definitely gotten better compared to the times of Mosconi, but I'd be really surprised to find someone today who's better than, say, Efren or Earl when they were in their prime--and that was in the 80s/90s!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiouALehFR8

Compare that to snooker and you can really see the difference. Every year, there is a rise in the number of century breaks made per tournaments. While no one is quite up to the level of Ronnie O'Sullivan yet, I'm willing to bet there are a lot of lower-ranking top 16 or higher-ranking top 32 players today who can give 80s Davis or 90s Hendry a run for their money.

So how can pool players as a whole increase their overall standard of play?

- We need to do away with the pervasive "action/gambling culture" that pool has stubbornly kept for the past few decades. We remove this mentality, and more people will start viewing pool as a proper sport, and not just a pub game.

- Second, we need an effective international governing body for pool that can organize regular tournaments with decent prize money. More regional/international-level tournaments mean more exposure to world-class play. A higher prize money would give players an incentive to properly learn the game and hone their craft.

- Standardization. The pool-playing world needs to come to a consensus to the type of equipment, the rules and THE GAME that needs to represent pool. Different pool games require different skill sets--different types of equipment also play a part to some extent. Are we gonna stick to 9-ball? 10-ball? Revive straight pool? Or maybe one-pocket, which hardly anyone outside of the US knows, let alone plays? 10-ft table or bar table? Tight pockets or buckets for pockets? Maybe focusing on one (or two) game can accelerate the overall standard of play for that game since that would mean more people playing.

There is considerable room for improvement in the overall standard of play. As far as development of a cue sport and its players goes, what World Snooker has achieved and how they achieved it is something the pool-playing world should take notes from. There is only so much online livestreams, bush-league tournaments, "on the road" lifestyle and "learn-as-you-go" mentality can do.
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Well pretty good post except the gambling/action culture thing.

It's pretty simple. There isn't & never really has been any real tour that makes playing pool a viable living for more than 4-5 guys & they aren't making that much. Combine that with the amount of time and dedication required to play at a world class level & what other alternative do players have than to gamble?

I'm sorry but I've been hearing this "spectre of gambling" thing for over 30 years being blamed for all of pools woes. It's why sponsors won't touch pool. It's what gives pool a bad image, on & on. You seem to like snooker, do you feel if people couldn't bet on it as they CAN, would it be as popular with the public, I don't think it would.

I think pool ought to embrace gambling. If it could be legalized & sanctioned to where people could bet on it then there would be more interest in pool than there ever was. It might also be the source of prize $ necessary to run a proper tour.
 
Colonel said:
Well pretty good post except the gambling/action culture thing.

It's pretty simple. There isn't & never really has been any real tour that makes playing pool a viable living for more than 4-5 guys & they aren't making that much. Combine that with the amount of time and dedication required to play at a world class level & what other alternative do players have than to gamble?

I'm sorry but I've been hearing this "spectre of gambling" thing for over 30 years being blamed for all of pools woes. It's why sponsors won't touch pool. It's what gives pool a bad image, on & on. You seem to like snooker, do you feel if people couldn't bet on it as they CAN, would it be as popular with the public, I don't think it would.

I think pool ought to embrace gambling. If it could be legalized & sanctioned to where people could bet on it then there would be more interest in pool than there ever was. It might also be the source of prize $ necessary to run a proper tour.
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Thanks for the response Colonel. The gambling I refer to in my previous post is the over-the-table cash gambling we see on sports bars and pubs, which to a number of people who are hardly familiar with present pool culture would seem a shady/questionable practice.

I agree sir, legalized betting is one way we can get interest in pool. Same thing has been done in snooker, and in fact ONLINE legalised betting companies like Dafabet, Betfred and Ladbrokes are regular sponsors for snooker tournaments. Admittedly betting is part, but I won't say a major part, of the snooker culture at this point in time. I'm willing to bet snooker continues to be popular in the UK not so much of the fact you can bet on it, but because snooker is very much part of its culture and therefore they respect the sport and its traditions, just as American football is in America.
 
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Colonel said:
Well pretty good post except the gambling/action culture thing.

It's pretty simple. There isn't & never really has been any real tour that makes playing pool a viable living for more than 4-5 guys & they aren't making that much. Combine that with the amount of time and dedication required to play at a world class level & what other alternative do players have than to gamble?

I'm sorry but I've been hearing this "spectre of gambling" thing for over 30 years being blamed for all of pools woes. It's why sponsors won't touch pool. It's what gives pool a bad image, on & on. You seem to like snooker, do you feel if people couldn't bet on it as they CAN, would it be as popular with the public, I don't think it would.

I think pool ought to embrace gambling. If it could be legalized & sanctioned to where people could bet on it then there would be more interest in pool than there ever was. It might also be the source of prize $ necessary to run a proper tour.
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The whole, "gambling is bad for pool's image" pertains more to the idea of better players hustling weaker ones.

Spectator gambling would be fine if all players would play on the up and up. However, as you know there are some players that wouldn't be so honest. Those types exist in snooker as well. The biggest difference is if you get caught manipulating matches to affect bets in snooker, there is a governing body in place that will investigate and throw down a swift and just punishment if you are found guilty.

Get caught throwing a match in pool, and all you'll likely get is a slap on the wrist and a 20 page thread about you on AZ. In 2 months time, most people will have forgotten about the whole ordeal.


To answer John's question, yes pro players can always get a little better. However, their improvement will not be as noticeable as say you or I, because they already play at such a high level. The majority of improvement for a pro is going to be between the ears.
 
O'SulliReyes said:
Thanks for the response Colonel. The gambling I refer to in my previous post is the over-the-table cash gambling we see on sports bars and pubs, which to a number of people who are hardly familiar with present pool culture would seem a shady/questionable practice.

I agree sir, legalized betting is one way we can get interest in pool. Same thing has been done in snooker, and in fact ONLINE legalised betting companies like Dafabet, Betfred and Ladbrokes are regular sponsors for snooker tournaments. Admittedly betting is part, but I won't say a major part, of the snooker culture at this point in time. I'm willing to bet snooker continues to be popular in the UK not so much of the fact you can bet on it, but because snooker is very much part of its culture and therefore they respect the sport and its traditions, just as American football is in America.
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Sure betting is a reason snooker is popular, but I agree it's not the only nor major reason.

It's just a better game. I love all aspects of pool, but snooker is much more engaging to a spectator.

I can barely get my dad to sit through 10 minutes of 9 ball, but he'll sit and watch an entire snooker match.
 
I was lucky enough to get to see Willie Mosconi in an exhibition when I was an early teenager, and one thing I remember him saying was there was no such thing as a perfect pool player, but that it was something all pool players strive for.
 
deanoc said:
the real question is,can case makers ever get me a bunch of cases

the minor question is yes,pro players still don't play as good as Efren once did or possibly as he does today

most pro players are very talented,but are they up to Keith,Ronnie,Buddy or willie's speed
the equipment makes it easier because of the speed

Do any bank like Eddie Taylor, ?

for that matter how many have the guts to play john Barton for $10,000 with the worst of it?

Do any play as good as Mike Siegal did? or Has anybody run out 150 from the break like St Louie Louie?

These guys have a long way to go
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Tap, tap, tap! :cool:
 
It all comes down to money. If there was PGA Tour-type money in pool, the quality of play would increase 10 fold.
 
Good Topic...

Better, who knows. More Consistent... YES.

Every pro and even decent A speed amateur knows what do to or has a decent plan going into any particular shot, it's executing that shot correctly more often that makes the higher geared player "better".

Just my opinion.
 
Pro Players

I would agree that players can be better. I have been surprised myself by some of the play by pros in events I have watched. The flip side of this is that it makes me realize the importance of table time and practicing fundamentals, including aiming. This repetition and practice is what helps to eliminate these mistakes. The tournament play and action matches are what help to create the mental toughness and decision-making to create a champion.

With respect to gambling, it is the character of individuals that have been involved in this scene that have caused the bad image. For the most part, there have been a lot of unsavory characters involved that are involved in illegal activities or have substance abuse issues along with the wanting to "rob" people they play. The part that is encouraging is that a lot of the younger players are not trying to be lock artists or "hustlers" in the sense that they are not trying to "rob" or "cheat" players out of money. They simply want to be the best and beat you down like a rented mule when they play you. The other part of gambling is the same as with anything else involving gambling...there are those that become addicted and ruin their lives and damage the lives of those around them. In many cases, it is the highly skilled players themselves, that have fallen into the throws of addiction. However, gambling is not going to further the game...corporate sponsorship, marketing, public participation, spectatorship, and structure is the way to raise the game up so that the top players can earn a living legitimately. Until then, it will just be a subculture here in the States where we will continue to lag behind the rest of the world. Soccer was that way for a long, long time. Finally, there is starting to be progress with the sport here in the United States. Pool is going to be that way as well.
 
Europe

It appears that the American players today do not have or play with the same discipline that the European players do. Pool is treated to a higher standard in other parts of the world similar to how Golf is treated here in the States. Years ago I was thinking of taking up Golf and was told by several people to take lessons first so no bad habits are formed.

Someone wanting to take up Pool for the most part does not have lessons available and learns to play on their own most never get a solid foundation to build on.I remember reading something Buddy Hall said " Don't play shape if you already have shape" if you watch his matches you can understand what he is saying. I see a lot of younger talented players today going 3 rails when it isn't necessary. The European players seem to play the way Buddy was talking about. Just my two cents.
 
I don't think they can get any better unless an improvement in equipment allows it. The evolution of pool play happens at an individual level. Not as a group.
I too believe the gambling aspect has pretty much denied pool it's acceptance to general audiences. It's one thing to gamble on a sporting event, but quite another when the player does it. Ask Pete Rose.
I also believe that Snooker has more drawing power than other pocket billiard games, but not here in the States. :)
 
Having lived in Germany and China I can say that in those countries pool is treated more like a serious sport than in the USA.

But I don't know if those countries really produce a higher average skill level than the USA has. At the pro level there is no denying that the Europeans and the Chinese/Taiwanese produce monster players who seem to make less unforced errors when they play.

I just have this idea that major sports all benefit from dedicated coaching and the latest in research to produce world class performers who literally cannot improve much more on average. Of course there are always going to be the best of the best whose performance floats above the crowd.

I do agree with those who say that if there were more money to support a viable tour then there would be improvement....I don't think it would be 10x as one person said but I would bet that we would see more players approaching the elite level than we have now.
 
deanoc said:
"Gambling is not going to further the game"


Let us stop for just one minute to suppose that Patrick were to say"Gambling is not going to further the game"
and he was talking about POKER.

What would Poker be without gambling?
Oh.i know there are poker tournaments with only trophies,but honestly who cares about them

Did poker shed its shaky image of gamblers when it became so popular?
But you say"Poker is gambling" or "without gambling poker would not make sense"

Exactly my point,POOL IS GAMBLING,take that away and what do you have left?
Snooker,you say.Save it! Snooker is driven by gambling.

For better or worse ,pool means gambling.

when I was about 10 my parents bought me a tiny 2x4 or so little table,folded like a card table

Well it was in the den and some friend of the parents stopped by,seeing the table all by itself,he said
"Don't gamble with Campbell"

you see,it is synonymous with pool,pool equals gamble.Just like dice or Poker.

you want pool without gamble,it is gilding the lily,a eunuch at Hugh Hefners, you want a place where your kids find heroes ,read some fiction.
You won't find it it in pool.Take up Tennis or old maid

Don't take me wrong,I never took my kids to the pool room,never will,
its too tough,the characters are tough,you are unlikely to find a good husband there
for the daughter,your son will not learn responsibility,he might lose his heart to a game.

But you take gambling out and all you have is nothing but rolling balls into holes.

They tried taking the gamble out and everyone started playing poker, ,pool rooms shut down
and I don't need to describe the scene today.

What do you think would help pool,another" Hustler "movie or 'Bambi Plays Pool With her Friends at the Family Rec Room After Doing Her Chores First"
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Tap, Tap, Tap.
Somebody gets it.
 
Would that even be a good thing?

I'd question whether or not that would be good or bad for pool in general?

At the very least I think the games would need to change to become more difficult, at which point the net is the same - more challenging for the players...

Already many of the games are break and run-fests with constant *****ing about the racks because the margin of error is already so low.

If the direction pool wanted to go was to eliminate unforced errors, etc - why all of the changes to the rotation games to try and make them more difficult? 10 ball was created because players were getting too good at 9 ball.

If players improve, won't we just change the games to bring them back down to a balance?

Rambling on now...

b
 
O'SulliReyes said:
....Sure, the standard of play has definitely gotten better compared to the times of Mosconi....


- We need to do away with the pervasive "action/gambling culture" that pool has stubbornly kept for the past few decades. We remove this mentality, and more people will start viewing pool as a proper sport, and not just a pub game. .
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I think the standard of play has changed since Mosconi, but gotten better? I don't know about that.

Although I certainly do agree with the notion that structured education and training would consistently produce more high level players than our status quo.

Someone posted that good education and training isn't available, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Now more than ever, there are plenty of good sources and teachers out there. Unless you live in a cave, then not so much.

The pervasive gambling culture has followed pool (and all sports) from day one. It's not a new problem by any means. It's simply a matter of marketing and production. Show the public want you want them to see, the rest doesn't matter.
 
deanoc said:
the real question is,can case makers ever get me a bunch of cases

the minor question is yes,pro players still don't play as good as Efren once did or possibly as he does today

most pro players are very talented,but are they up to Keith,Ronnie,Buddy or willie's speed
the equipment makes it easier because of the speed

Do any bank like Eddie Taylor, ?

for that matter how many have the guts to play john Barton for $10,000 with the worst of it?

Do any play as good as Mike Siegal did? or Has anybody run out 150 from the break like St Louie Louie?

These guys have a long way to go
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I absolutely love your post!!! I have been away from the game for nearly 20 years. I could be way off base on this, but I do wonder.....Out of the money matches being played today, are the pro's posting up their own loot, or are they all playing with stake horses??? For some reason I recall even tourney players from the 80's and 90's shooting their own cash on these matches. Does not seem like this happens as often today?? Am I wrong??
 
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