Can We Take Some Luck out of 9-ball?

Why would you want to change 9 ball? It is what it is. The same rules apply for everyone. The luck factor is going to affect both players to some degree. And, if you play a long session the rolls will even out. Most people only notice the bad rolls and not the good ones.
 
How long did you play it and what makes you think you know how to play it properly?

You have a good point and you're probably right. I didn't give it much of a chance... tried it for a few hours and we both felt we didn't like it.

My push "vocabulary" is very small. I leave distance and if possible I leave the CB on the rail and if possible leave only half a ball to see. Then I trust that my fundamentals will get the job done better than my opponent's can, and hope he passes back to me. That's pretty much all I ever do. Works great for me but I need stronger competition.

I probably should give it another try if I can find the right opponents.
 
I feel if 9 ball keeps the push factor in the rules and go to call pockets .
It will make better players.
APA players will become better players .Luck is good but skill and luck can win a lot more matches.

9 ball on the break is great but.
I played on the Tiger tour in MD onces snapped the 9 in the top right pocket and it was spotted, i did not like that at first but when it blocked up a ball it was a great factor to play safes or set OK combos.
Take out the luck and play call pockets and see how the game will pan out..
 
Why would you want to change 9 ball? It is what it is. The same rules apply for everyone. The luck factor is going to affect both players to some degree. And, if you play a long session the rolls will even out. Most people only notice the bad rolls and not the good ones.

Luck is a factor in every game, whether it be a pool game or some other game. No one will ever be able to totally remove luck from 9-ball or any other pool game. Play the game and enjoy it.
 
I like the luck factor. Take luck out of billiards and you will watch the number of players decrease by over 50%. Make me believe I don't have a chance at winning and see if I show up to play much less pay tourney fees knowing I can't possibly even get lucky and win.

People complain all the time about how this sport is failing or has failed to make it on TV. Complain about the sport not having enough funds to support pro players. Take luck out and you eliminate people who will help fund tournaments payouts. You eliminate the fun of newer players so they never get addicted. To me it would be a bad turn for the game.

If you want to play a more elite game then do it with rules agreed on your opponent. But anything that makes the game harder will eliminate players that the game needs to continue to grow.

You want luck to play less and skill to be used more? Enter more high dollar tournaments.

This is only one players opinion and is worth exactly what you payed for it.:wink:

8up:

First, you're a valued member of these forums -- you gained big time notoriety when you chopped & burned a brand new set of the Australian Oysters instructional videos!

Now, on topic, JT was talking about removing luck in 9-ball, and the Texas Express fanatics jumped in, saying the game is fine as-is. In my post, I acknowledged that, and even indirectly said the game shouldn't be touched (via my comment that pigs would fly before 9-ball is played without Texas Express rules -- you might recall that in my post above).

My point was about 10-ball. If certain players want to play a "9ball-like" game (i.e. rotation pool), but are sick of the luck factor, then play 10-ball. As I mentioned, 10-ball is a very, very old game that resurrected from the ashes, due to many folks' complaints about the game of 9-ball. It's more than "9-ball with one extra ball" as the short-sighted 9-ball players like to look at it. (And the interesting thing is, those same 9-ball players that like to play 10-ball with Texas Express rules, make a huge deal about "that one extra ball." "Oh my gosh, how much more difficulty that one extra ball adds to the game!" <rolls eyes> They are, in fact, trying to redirect attention away from the fact that they're not playing 10-ball according to it's own very old / recently-resurrected rules ["you'll pry my Texas Express rules from my cold dead fingers"], and are making a big deal about that single extra ball.)

The point being, why do *both* rotation games "have to have" Texas Express rules? Why, "just because" the balls are shot in rotation? They don't. Let's keep 9-ball as it is, to appease the Texas Express advocates and those that appreciate the virtues of a soft break. For those that are sick of Texas Express and the weaknesses of 9-ball, let's play 10-ball, according to world-standardized rules.

Don't like the way 10-ball is played with those world-standardized WPA rules? Then don't watch. The same way I roll my eyes and look away / find something else to watch whenever a 9-ball match is being played.

This way, everybody's happy. Agreed?
-Sean
 
sfleinen:
agree 100 % :)

if someone don t like the luck in 9-ball he then knows why 10-ball was invented :)

in my opinion anyway funny that rules are changing from tournament to tournament....

lg
INgo
 
The easiest way to take the luck out of 9 ball ...

1) Put the 10 ball on the table.
2) Play.
3) Repeat as necessary.

No offense to the OP, and sorry if this was already covered (I only skimmed prior posts), but if there is someone who doesn't enjoy 9 ball and the rules that have been typically associated with it, then 10 ball is the alternative - assuming you play call pocket rules. No one is rewarded for lucking in a ball in 10 ball.
 
9 ball

what is funny to me here is that some are saying why change nine ball. b/c it was changed to texas express to accomodate TV back in the eighties. it was altered some more after that so the "audience" would be placated. nine ball when played as i explained in my lengthy post was very rarely played by top players as a luck game. today b/c no one want to "change" nine ball, ten ball is making a run for it. well what is ten but nine ball in calling pockets etc. its the nine ball game of 40 50 years ago.

and why does anyone want to take out that making the nine or ten on the break doesnt win. when buddy hall, earl strickland, nick varner, mizerak, etc were putting great streaks of nine ball racks together it was damn exciting. why does anyone want to diminish the authority and skill of top players by placing bogus rules on the game. what this whole venue needs is color, character, and continuity. IMHO which seems not so humble. gerald
 
Try this ,Ten Ball call shot, push out rules, spot all foul balls and ball behind the line this brings back the spot shot this is the best game ever! Try it you will love it.....................you will see that the better player comes out on top.great game to gamble alot of bang for your buck.good luck jim jones
 
Luck is a factor in every game, whether it be a pool game or some other game. No one will ever be able to totally remove luck from 9-ball or any other pool game. Play the game and enjoy it.

gmillioni -- I think the way 9-ball was played 50 years ago, as you cited in post #19, is much better than Texas Express 9-ball. Thanks for letting us know how it was done then.

Rich R. -- Here are some comments I posted in another thread on this subject last year.

No, you can't totally eliminate the luck element, but you can try to minimize it. The purpose of a pool competition should be to identify and reward the person (or persons) who is (are) playing the most skillfully during that event. Excitement for the audience should not be the objective in most competitions; in fact, such excitement sometimes results from ignorance. A three-rail kick safety is beautiful and exciting; a 10-on-the-break for a win is disgusting.

People often argue that "luck evens out," or winning on a lucky shot, such as a slop-in, is so rare among top players that we shouldn't worry about it. Well, luck may even out over a lifetime, but it need not do so in any given match or tournament. And it's the rareness of the lucky shot that makes it so much more critical. If it happened every second shot, then both players in a match would benefit and suffer fairly equally. But when it happens only rarely, it becomes enormous and can really mean the difference between winning and losing.

I'm sure that everyone who has played a lot has both won and lost a ton of matches because of purely lucky shots -- 9-ball or 10-ball on the break or slopping in a key ball. A loss that way is agonizing. A win that way is less than fulfilling. It would be so easy to eliminate some of the game's pernicious luck.​
 
Leave nine ball alone. You need a game that can be played with a blaring sound system with no speaking necessary except for the push shot.
 
The more I watch ...the more I think it should be changed...pushout.

1)A guy misses the shot and makes it or another ball in another pocket, so gets to keep shooting=call-shot only.

2)A guy misses a shot and lucks out and leaves a lock-up safe that he kissed-off a ball or went around 22 rails, ... Johnnyt

First, an incoming player should never be able to shoot the ball from any place other than where it comes to him. Yes, lose the push after the break.

1:wink:) Agreed. Call pocket...as in pocket only, no calling safes.
2 or C) In general, this does not happen much in (near pro +).
 
JT:

No problem, buddy! ...SVB's "pop and drop" break (where he hits down on the cue ball slightly, causing it to be slightly airborne when it hits the head ball,

...So, in summary for your 10-ball practice, no "pop and drop" breaks -- unless you want to be in the habit of continually replacing your footspot marker. :)

-Sean

Stop giving that stuff away for free!

The footspot be damned! Throw it in the gutter and go buy another.
 
From your description of the pop n drop break you make it sound like shane hits downward a bit on purpose, but as far as I know it's just a normal break done very hard (and sickeningly controlled) - all hard breaks go airborne, you can't ever break with a 100% level cue... his just pops higher because he hits damned hard....

It is a different stroke for a break shot and it yeilds completely different results...effectively doubles one's break options.

Dammit! Now I am giving it away for free.
 
All this talk about taking luck out of the game and no discussion of early combo's on the 9 or 10 (either game) being removed as a win. I feel this is one of the biggest weaknesses of the game called shot or not. In no other game can you make one stroke and win a game. To me nothing is worst than someone making 3 or 4 early game balls in a race. Spot it and keep shooting or even give the guy ball in hand. This is my biggest complaint about rotation games.

Also I completely agree with sjm on the two way shot. The SBE rules took away alot of creativity.
 
JT-

I'll just leave this here..
Grady’s 9 Ball Rules



It’s call shot but it is not necessary to call obvious shots.

Only one ball may be called on one shot.

If the called ball is pocketed legally, everything else that might go is good.

If a player misses a called shot, his opponent has the option of taking the shot or having his opponent shoot again.

Nothing spots up except the 9 ball.

If a player calls “safe” and inadvertently pockets a ball(s), his opponent has the option of taking the shot or having the player shoot again.

A player may not call safe and pocket a ball.

While this is not a foul, remember that the opponent will have “option”.

Players rack their own balls.

They may also have a friend rack the balls for them.

An opponent may not rack the balls.

The 9 ball must be pocketed last to win the game.

Where not mentioned herein, the general rules of pocket billiards shall apply.

=====================
Now.. print this out, and carry it with you. When asked to play 9-Ball.. tell them this is the only way you'll play. And go from there.
 
JT:

Short answer: play 10-ball, according to WPA rules (call shot) + some rule additions/extensions to the stock WPA rules:

-snip -
"Rotation pool" does not mean that Texas Express is bolted to its hip. I'm looking forward to 10-ball, the way it's supposed to be played, is going to gradually take the place of 9-ball.

IMHO,
-Sean

I agree with this. Leave 9-ball as is and play 10-ball with the "no-luck" rules for anything serious.

I have been playing more and more 10-ball in practice and match-ups (just had a nice round in my room that started at 2$ a rack and ended at 50$ a rack about 2am) and find that even using standard 9-ball rules when playing 10-ball makes is a more interesting game. When played with the call shot rules, it takes on a more one-pocket and 8-ball feel, more moving and less shooting at everything.
 
9 ball vs 10 ball

10 ball is great to take away most of the rolls when 2 people want to compete and have the best person win. I hate the rolls when I lose important matches against players my level or better, but hate to beat a good player with them just as much. Everyone knows I got 8 rolls and he got 2, but that's the game of 9 ball.

What about people that want to have a chance of winning or beating a better player gambling? If you make it so lesser players don't have a "luck factor" they won't play better players in tournaments. They certainly won't gamble with better players. This is the lure of the wild 7 and out. If that luck factor isn't there they won't play. Without it they don't have a chance.

What I am learning to despise is alternating break. If I'm up I can't just close the deal and run out to win a set. If Im down 5-2 in a race to 7 I have no realistic chance of coming back against a good player wo will run our 2 of his 4 gauranteed breaks.
 
My push "vocabulary" is very small. I leave distance and if possible I leave the CB on the rail and if possible leave only half a ball to see. Then I trust that my fundamentals will get the job done better than my opponent's can, and hope he passes back to me. That's pretty much all I ever do. Works great for me but I need stronger competition.

I talked about this with a good player many years ago. When he was on the road he lost serious money to only two people, one of which neither one of us had heard of before or since, the other was Buddy Hall:eek: Gives you an idea of this guy's caliber of play. Anyway, his philosophy was to always push to a safe. He felt confident enough to handle any shot his opponent pushed out to. He admitted that this wasn't the way everyone would do it, it was just what he did. There are a great many options in push out that don't exist in one foul, on both sides of the shot, offensive and defensive.
If memory serves me, I wrote an extensive post on this on rsb years ago and had it saved on my then computer, which was about three or four computers ago. Google archives don't go back far enough, either.
Short story about my friend, who was in the BCA rule book as the 1968 NYS Straight Pool Champion: sometime in the late '60s, at a tournament at The Cue Club on Teal Avenue in Syracuse, Ny, he approached Minnesota Fats and asked Fats to play some 9 Ball. The story goes that Fats had on a sharkskin suit and a blond on each arm. The fat man responded: "Get away from me, kid!" Fats knew he had no chance.
 
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