Can you get the object ball to spin and to "grab" the pocket and help it drop?

Let me say this, just as food for thought! :confused:

There's a lot of things that pool players do that seem unconventional, illogical, or against the basic fundamentals. However, the players that make these uncanny shots hit thousands of balls each and every day. These "shots" they have in their arsenals are shots that some would never even attempt.

You won't see very many champions who shoot only using the fundamentals. In order to WIN -- after all, it's all about winning the game, right? -- one must take risks and go on their intuition.

Many shots are "feel" shots. To explain them goes against every theory that a pool purist can convey. Yet, these are the shots that form champions in the pool world. :cool:
 
Put the Qball about 4 inches off the rail and shoot it down the table with inside and than outside english, this should answer any questions. PJ, I would like to know your results and opinion on what happens and why.
 
cookie man said:
Put the Qball about 4 inches off the rail and shoot it down the table with inside and than outside english, this should answer any questions. PJ, I would like to know your results and opinion on what happens and why.
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This is a far diff shot than in my OP, but is definitely related.

I too would love to hear feedback on this. Thanks, Matt


And as far as what Keith ... errr JAM wrote, that's very interesting and definitely goes into the vault. ;)

And Bob Jewitt too? And others too - Awesome!

KK9 <- where else can you get such spontaneous input from the cream of the pool world? :)
 
Patrick Johnson said:
No.

The amount of spin you can transfer to an OB is too small to make a difference unless the visible pocket opening is very small. Shooting at a small target is exactly when you don't want to compromise your accuracy with sidespin, especially since it rarely is helpful.

Transferred spin wears off quickly, so it could only make a difference on short shots or on shots you hit harder. You probably don't need it on short shots because you can hit the pocket opening pretty accurately already (unless you add sidespin to the equation), and hitting shots harder makes it much more likely the OB will jaw (in addition to also reducing accuracy even more).

In other words, it's a bad idea and a myth. They're common in pool (another related one is "rail hugging english").

pj
chgo
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bump.......
 
cookie man said:
Put the Qball about 4 inches off the rail and shoot it down the table with inside and than outside english, this should answer any questions. PJ, I would like to know your results and opinion on what happens and why.
Click to expand...

I've done this on my Diamond with 4.5" deep shelf pockets (specifically to test this myth). Hitting the pocket facing as close to the point as possible it made no difference what kind of sidespin the CB had on it. All shots dropped at all speeds.

Have you done it? Maybe you should take your own advice.

This is a misleading myth that teaches players bad habits.

pj
chgo
 
I've heard someone say certain spin will help an object ball "grab the pocket" and help it drop in - or "widen the pocket" if you will.
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yes, you can also jaw a ball if it has reverse english off the pocket face. i've done it. i also saw dick lane do it one day on a shot that was "on". his comment; "don't hit it right and it doesn't go."

some of you are missing the point. the shots where this phenomenon comes into play are few but when it does come up you should be aware of how english will effect the ball as it hits the pocket face.
 
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sausage said:
yes, you can also jaw a ball if it has reverse english off the pocket face. i've done it. i also saw dick lane do it one day on a shot that was "on". his comment; "don't hit it right and it doesn't go."

some of you are missing the point. the shots where this phenomenon comes into play are few but when it does come up you should be aware of how english will effect the ball as it hits the pocket face.
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Exactly right. :smile:

Rack 'em, Sausage. :eek:

[I just wanted to say that!] :grin-square:
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I've done this on my Diamond with 4.5" deep shelf pockets (specifically to test this myth). Hitting the pocket facing as close to the point as possible it made no difference what kind of sidespin the CB had on it. All shots dropped at all speeds.

Have you done it? Maybe you should take your own advice.

This is a misleading myth that teaches players bad habits.

pj
chgo
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Sorry Pj ,i meant to say when cheating the pocket by a couple inches. I don't post anything I haven't done. I also did not give an opinion on what happens, but the results could be useful if you have to shoot past a blocker.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
I've done this on my Diamond with 4.5" deep shelf pockets (specifically to test this myth). Hitting the pocket facing as close to the point as possible it made no difference what kind of sidespin the CB had on it. All shots dropped at all speeds.

Have you done it? Maybe you should take your own advice.

This is a misleading myth that teaches players bad habits.

pj
chgo
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Patrick, I think most would agree that making a habit of spinning the OB for the explicit purpose of helping it into a pocket is, in fact, a very bad idea. I don't often disagree with you, but under some circumstances, I believe the technique is somewhere between very helpful to essential.

At the very least, it's important to be aware that using centerball will sometimes put enough of the wrong sidespin on the OB to significantly diminish its chances of dropping. I've mostly noticed this with severe approach angles into a side pocket: given the same OB position, a left cut will sink it, whereas a right cut won't (or visa-versa)...or at least make it much less likely. In the latter case, attempting to compensate with CB english does complicate things, but it is an option.

Jim
 
Jal said:
Patrick, I think most would agree that making a habit of spinning the OB for the explicit purpose of helping it into a pocket is, in fact, a very bad idea. I don't often disagree with you, but under some circumstances, I believe the technique is somewhere between very helpful to essential.

It can be very helpful to essential, it's not like you want to do this on all shots. Take the death rattle olhausens for example, in particular situations I guarantee you that I made that ball fall with the inside kill, instead of bowing down to the crap pocket I say go home ball and she does. All things have to be taken with a grain of salt, too much of anything can be bad for you. If you use it right its a great tool for the arsenal. Just use with caution and pratice it, knowledge is power.
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Patrick Johnson said:
No.

The amount of spin you can transfer to an OB is too small to make a difference unless the visible pocket opening is very small. Shooting at a small target is exactly when you don't want to compromise your accuracy with sidespin, especially since it rarely is helpful.

Transferred spin wears off quickly, so it could only make a difference on short shots or on shots you hit harder. You probably don't need it on short shots because you can hit the pocket opening pretty accurately already (unless you add sidespin to the equation), and hitting shots harder makes it much more likely the OB will jaw (in addition to also reducing accuracy even more).

In other words, it's a bad idea and a myth. They're common in pool (another related one is "rail hugging english").

pj
chgo
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If what you are saying about transfering spin is true, then banking balls using english is a myth too?
 
I would safely estimate, that over the years, I have hit a jillion balls into a corner pocket , mostly on a bar table, using english to help it "eat" the pocket up. Usually a low, outside english type of stroke. This particular tool isn't used near as much on a diamond bar table as on a valley, but is still a useful weapon to possess.
 
Majic:
If what you are saying about transfering spin is true, then banking balls using english is a myth too?
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No, that isn't implied by what I said. I said the kind of shot for which transferred spin might make a difference (the kind with very little margin for error) is the kind of shot you'd least want to use it on (because it reduces accuracy).

Accuracy is reduced not just because of squirve, but also because the amount of sidespin and the amount of throw increase together - so the more effective "helping english" might be the less accurate the shot is. It's a losing proposition every way you look at it.

Somebody else said if the shot really needs "helping english" you should choose another shot. I agree with that.

pj
chgo
 
"death rattle olhausens"...haha. Never heard that before...but so true! We have some olhausens at local senior center....the pockets flare out! If you hit those pockets with anything more than pocket speed the ball will rattle. PISSES ME OFF!

I havent used spin to HELP the ball...I might start trying that. Cant hurt :wink:
 
Jim:
...under some circumstances, I believe the technique is somewhere between very helpful to essential.
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Pat:
What circumstances?
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Jim:
I think some valid examples have been offered. It's been a while, but I have practiced the side pocket one, and it seemed clear enough that OB sidespin does matter.
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I think the only shots that might benefit from "helping english" are those with less than a ball's width of pocket opening visible. In my experience this cannot be true for a corner pocket shot - even a 4-inch corner pocket (the tightest any of us will ever play on) has almost 3 inches of opening for a rail-frozen OB. There's no way a ball hit accurately down the rail, even with the wrong sidespin, won't drop into any pocket I'm familiar with. I've tried to make cue balls jaw from this angle by putting the opposite spin on them and can't do it on any table at any speed.

CueTable Help



So we're really only talking about one kind of shot: an extremely shallow shot to a side pocket.

CueTable Help



If hit accurately, the shot goes without sidespin on any table I'm familiar with. If hit with sidespin it's less accurate.

The technique disqualifies itself: it's only needed when you shouldn't use it.

pj
chgo
 
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It's been stated that Mcready and Mosconi found this type of english useful, sorry PJ i'll stay with the good guys on this one.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think the only shots that might benefit from "helping english" are those with less than a ball's width of pocket opening visible. In my experience this cannot be true for a corner pocket shot - even a 4-inch corner pocket (the tightest any of us will ever play on) has almost 3 inches of opening for a rail-frozen OB. There's no way a ball hit accurately down the rail, even with the wrong sidespin, won't drop into any pocket I'm familiar with. I've tried to make cue balls jaw from this angle by putting the opposite spin on them and can't do it on any table at any speed.

[diagram]

So we're really only talking about one kind of shot: an extremely shallow shot to a side pocket.

[diagram]

If hit accurately, the shot goes without sidespin on any table I'm familiar with. If hit with sidespin it's less accurate.

The technique disqualifies itself: it's only needed when you shouldn't use it.

pj
chgo
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Patrick, Adobe's shockwave player hasn't been working on my computer for a long time. I'll try to install a fresh version, but it may take a while (dialup).

I hesitated to offer any really concrete examples because I don't have a table at hand. Attempting to "prove" anything with relatively simple math or a more elaborate computer model would not likely satisfy anyone (including me) for a variety of reasons.

I do appreciate your argument, which is, if I understand it correctly, that the type of shots (if any) where you have to take induced object ball sidespin into account are, except for banks, those which involve a very small margin of error. And it's exactly those sort of shots where the added complications of english should be avoided, if at all possible. I don't believe I can counter in any convincing way, at least not off the top of my head. There's likely some other option in any given situation and we could go round and round debating that.

I'm mostly aware of the possible effects of OB sidespin in a "what to avoid" sort of way. That is, I'll opt for something else, or slow the shot down while sacrificing subsequent position just to maximize the odds of the OB dropping.... given that a rolling OB minimizes the effects of sidespin.

In the discussion, it hasn't been exactly clear to me - and maybe that was my fault - whether people were saying that OB sidespin has essentially no effect, or that trying to "adjust it" with english is a fool's errand. I've had mostly the former in mind, while the latter is not so clear. Maybe some of the other posters can flesh that out.

Do we agree that contacting the facing (jaw, side) of a pocket, whether corner or side-pocket, and particulaly at higher speeds, doesn't guarantee that a ball will drop?

Jim
 
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