can't play without elbow drop!

Scaramouche said:
Well, not generally:grin:

In the beginning of the first video, he is shooting a few balls

Snooker - Champions Way With Steve Davis
Cues Cueing Aim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8JxEFj2-aw

In the second, around 6:42 he starts talking about cueing and at 7:10 he discusses a power shot, with his grip at the end of the cue.

In the power shot, he drops his elbow, but watch where the cue tip ends up.
A No-No.:p
With better editing, or a proper demonstration, the elbow drop wouldn't be there.

Aim Exercises Cueing Grip Stance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mwmXqZqdis

I know not generally -that would be why I said "when he needs to"

I used Steve as an example of a Snooker player
who was MUCH better than Allison - and perhaps the most disciplined
player of his time, intending to point out that a casual veiwing
of some of the great Brit Snooker players will reveal many of them
do something else counter to a widely accepted 'myth'. They bend their
arms<of the bridge hand> at the elbow.
Ultimately, I decided this was a bit off-topic, and possibly confusing,
for this paticular thread.

Dale
 
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randyg said:
Hi Dale. What doe's this mean; "like a piston in a bore." Would you please describe it for me. Thanks....SPF=randyg

remaining on a line in both the 'verticals and horizontals', as
Joe Davis used to say.

Visualize any scene from an old movie of a locamotive - the
'crossbar'(?) attached to the whells moves forward and back
staying perfectly level.

Dale
 
pdcue said:
remaining on a line in both the 'verticals and horizontals', as
Joe Davis used to say.

Visualize any scene from an old movie of a locamotive - the
'crossbar'(?) attached to the whells moves forward and back
staying perfectly level.

Dale

Actually, there is some vertical motion although it is much less than the horizontal motion.

The pendilum stroke refers to the movement of the arm, not of the cue. The arm moves in a pendilum motion, and the cue actually moves much like the locomotive cross bar you mentioned....primarily forward, but with some up and down movement. The cool part is that both move forward on a straight plane, which is exactly what we want a cue to do.
Steve
 
Scaramouche said:
Well, not generally:grin:

In the beginning of the first video, he is shooting a few balls

Snooker - Champions Way With Steve Davis
Cues Cueing Aim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8JxEFj2-aw

In the second, around 6:42 he starts talking about cueing and at 7:10 he discusses a power shot, with his grip at the end of the cue.

In the power shot, he drops his elbow, but watch where the cue tip ends up.
A No-No.:p
With better editing, or a proper demonstration, the elbow drop wouldn't be there.


Aim Exercises Cueing Grip Stance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mwmXqZqdis

Yes, he does indeed let the tip of the cue rise when shooting a force follow.

What's wrong with that?

Flex
 
Flex said:
Yes, he does indeed let the tip of the cue rise when shooting a force follow.

What's wrong with that?

Flex


It could indicate a future problem. The tip comes up with a tight grip and/or dropped elbow. The question is, when does the tip start to rise? If it's after contact it shouldn't make any difference. That's cutting it close. The answer is, it doesn't have to rise at all......SPF=randyg
 
randyg said:
Finding your perfect "Home" position helps insure that the elbow remains in the some position throughout the stroke.......SPF=randyg


Well, I've been experimenting to find my "perfect" (natural) home position (end-of-stroke grip hand location). I've seen you/other of your instructors mention landing on a specific rib, for example. My natural home position seems to be my nipple, because after a couple hours of playing I'll notice sensitivity there. So, I'm thinking that if I really concentrate and consistently finish each stroke correctly, I'm gonna have a sore tit - that's gonna negatively impact my game. Do you recommend I wear some kind of protection so I can finish correctly without causing distress. Can you recommend a source for any little nipple pasties that might alleviate this distress? What do you do for the women? I have no tits compared to the prominent beauties many women have. And don't be snickering, men, this is serious business!!!!
 
shankster8 said:
Well, I've been experimenting to find my "perfect" (natural) home position (end-of-stroke grip hand location). I've seen you/other of your instructors mention landing on a specific rib, for example. My natural home position seems to be my nipple, because after a couple hours of playing I'll notice sensitivity there. So, I'm thinking that if I really concentrate and consistently finish each stroke correctly, I'm gonna have a sore tit - that's gonna negatively impact my game. Do you recommend I wear some kind of protection so I can finish correctly without causing distress. Can you recommend a source for any little nipple pasties that might alleviate this distress? What do you do for the women? I have no tits compared to the prominent beauties many women have. And don't be snickering, men, this is serious business!!!!


I also "finish" on my nipple, that's my perfect HOME postion. It took a while to get used to it, now I don't even notice any tenderness. Every once and a while my break stroke "stings".

You have found it, stay with it. By the way, my wife (great player) puts a padding in her bra when she competes......SPF=randyg
 
Sore Tit??

means you are standing too straight with your cue. Your body should not touch the cue throughout the stroke. Stand at a 45 degree angle to your cue.

Moving your upper arm during the stroke usually means you are holding the cue with your grip hand too far forward, and you are trying to 'push' the cue ball instead of stroking it. This is a typical reaction from a player that is somewhat insecure about their stroke. Many kids develop what I call the 'Hully Gully' stroke because they think it looks Cool, but it hinders them after they get to a certain level in their game. It means the difference between being reasonably good and really good.
 
Thanks randy! Well, you didn't even crack as smile - very professional. And a very appropriate response that I shall stick with. One question remains, however. You did not recommend a source for pool pasties, or are you suggesting I wear a training bra, perhaps, and add some padding? Thanks
 
Johnnyz86 said:
[...] the one thing i cannot change and get working better even after months is elbow drop.
[...]
any advice?

My advice is to stick with it for another several months and maybe visit an instructor along the way.

When the discussion of elbow drop comes up, responses here often mix apples and oranges and pears. Here is my perspective on the issue.

If you were to install webcams in a hundred poolrooms throughout the world and view 1000 random elbow drops on pool strokes, those 1000 strokes might be divvied up as follows:

990 strokes: category A elbow drops
9 strokes: category B elbow drops
1 stroke: category C elbow drop

category A elbow drops--

the vast majority of them--are plainly and simply bad mechanics. This person's elbow is moving during the stroke, as perhaps is his or her head, making strokes inconsistent, making strokes rely on carefully choreographed timing of different motions, and encouraging the addition of other compensating motions. These people absolutely will benefit from learning good mechanics like those Randy and Scott and Steve and others advocate so well. These people should heed the advice of instructors like those I just mentioned and practice it until one nipple is as calloused as the bottom of a foot, imo.

category B elbow drops--

These are solid players whose elbow is still at the time of contact. The stroke is a simple pendulum stroke until after the cueball is gone. The impetus for dropping the elbow in the follow through perhaps comes from the desire to have a long, exaggerated follow through, or perhaps it comes from wanting a level, horizontal follow through (instead of the tip approaching the cloth as in the pendulum stroke). These people don't necessarily need to change anything. The biggest problem they cause is for others. They embolden the category A folk--who don't recognize the difference--thus providing a disincentive for the category A folk learning good mechanics.

Category C elbow drops--

This is, for example Mike Massey. These people are capable of a good pendulum stroke and perhaps employ a pendulum stroke on most of their shots. However, on power strokes, e.g., a break shot or a power draw shot, you will see an elbow drop. These players' elbows are moving at contact because the point is to add some speed by pivoting about the shoulder. In fact focusing on the elbow drop is like focusing on the thunder instead of the lightning. The lightning here is the elbow raise on the backstroke. Then pivoting about both the shoulder and elbow on the forward stroke increases speed. Most players, imo, should never do this for, say, a draw shot. The reason is that while the speed increases a bit, the bigger effect is our precision in where we contact the cueball goes down by a more significant amount. So I would say if you can't consistently draw one and a half table lengths with a pendulum stroke, then there's no way you should be futzing with this stuff. And if you CAN consistently draw one and a half table lengths with a pendulum stroke, then...well..you're more or less good to go!
 
randyg said:
It could indicate a future problem. The tip comes up with a tight grip and/or dropped elbow. The question is, when does the tip start to rise? If it's after contact it shouldn't make any difference. That's cutting it close. The answer is, it doesn't have to rise at all......SPF=randyg

With all due respect Randy, while rising up may be problematic, following straight through the cue ball may help increase consistency on force follows, at least it does for me. I tend to pot those shots more often and get what appears to be added spin when it's needed. Perhaps I'm wrong, but one of my pool instructors taught me to shoot the shots that way. He gave me "his permission" to do so, not that I needed it. And as for dropping the elbow on those kinds of shots, the drop if it occurs at all, and sometimes isn't needed IMHO, needs to occur after the tip contacts the cue ball. When I've tried to control my stroke to such an extent that I get no straight forward motion on the cue stick after contact with the cue ball on those power shots, my accuracy has gone down, and I've gotten less action on the cue ball.

At this point, I'm not planning to try to change my stroke to accommodate a pinned type follow through. When I asked Mark Wilson about this some time ago, he was very cautious not to condemn dropping the elbow on the kind of shot we're talking about here.

Obviously, I'm not in any way suggesting a shoveling motion should be used, just the normal drop that may occur when really putting oomph into the shot.

Flex
 
mikepage said:
So I would say if you can't consistently draw one and a half table lengths with a pendulum stroke, then there's no way you should be futzing with this stuff. And if you CAN consistently draw one and a half table lengths with a pendulum stroke, then...well..you're more or less good to go!

Yesterday, while playing some 8 ball with friends, playing on a dirty, slow 9 foot Gold Crown, I needed to draw the rock to get shape on the ball before the key ball. Not getting shape on this ball would mean safety time was at hand. The rock was about 3 diamonds from the object ball, which was about a diamond and a half from the corner pocket. I potted the ball and drew the rock straight back to the end rail and back down a bit less than half a table for pretty good shape on the next ball. I hit the draw pretty firm, but not especially so. I don't know if I dropped my elbow after making contact with the rock, but the ball did pot and I got the needed action on the cue ball.

I imagine if the elbow dropping police were there, I'd have been given a citation. However, whatever happened came off well, as it often does.

Regarding your three categories up above, I'd be hesitant to place myself in Section B, but I make those shots with pretty good regularity.

Most of the time, a regular stroke will draw the rock nicely. Sometimes not.

Flex
 
Flex said:
Yesterday, while playing some 8 ball with friends, playing on a dirty, slow 9 foot Gold Crown, I needed to draw the rock to get shape on the ball before the key ball. Not getting shape on this ball would mean safety time was at hand. The rock was about 3 diamonds from the object ball, which was about a diamond and a half from the corner pocket. I potted the ball and drew the rock straight back to the end rail and back down a bit less than half a table for pretty good shape on the next ball. I hit the draw pretty firm, but not especially so. I don't know if I dropped my elbow after making contact with the rock, but the ball did pot and I got the needed action on the cue ball.

I imagine if the elbow dropping police were there, I'd have been given a citation. However, whatever happened came off well, as it often does.

Regarding your three categories up above, I'd be hesitant to place myself in Section B, but I make those shots with pretty good regularity.

Most of the time, a regular stroke will draw the rock nicely. Sometimes not.

Flex
Since the cueball is only about 2 1/4 inches round, if you dropped your elbow less than 3 inches, you are forgiven.
After all you "dropped" it so the tip can accelerate thru the cueball.
Hell, just do what Efren does. Play with 20 oz. cue and 12 mm tip.
Throw the darn cue.:thumbup:
 
Mike...Catagory B and C are the same. It doesn't matter if the elbow is raised before moving downward, or not. ANY movement, up or down, is indicative of utilizing the shoulder joint to initiate the stroke...thus changing the dynamic of the motion, from a simple pendulum movement, via the elbow (a single muscle group - bicep, that operates physiologically on a dead straight line), to a complex movement from the shoulder (several muscle groups + a ball/socket joint, that potentially contributes to stroke inaccuracy, via 'steering' the cue). Grip pressure is more often the culprit here, which is much easier to learn to control, with a perfect pendulum swing.

Additionally, since the CB is literally GONE from the tip in 1/1000th of a second, any additional movement (such as the piston movement, or exaggerated followthrough) has no physical effect on the CB. While it is true, that some players may find the exaggerated elbow drop to be a 'comfortable' way to finish their stroke, it certainly has no physical benefit to the outcome. In other words, you will not get more accuracy. or 'action', on the CB, with this type of movement. Which goes back to what we say frequently...people just don't know why they do, what they do. :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

mikepage said:
My advice is to stick with it for another several months and maybe visit an instructor along the way.

When the discussion of elbow drop comes up, responses here often mix apples and oranges and pears. Here is my perspective on the issue.

If you were to install webcams in a hundred poolrooms throughout the world and view 1000 random elbow drops on pool strokes, those 1000 strokes might be divvied up as follows:

990 strokes: category A elbow drops
9 strokes: category B elbow drops
1 stroke: category C elbow drop

category A elbow drops--

the vast majority of them--are plainly and simply bad mechanics. This person's elbow is moving during the stroke, as perhaps is his or her head, making strokes inconsistent, making strokes rely on carefully choreographed timing of different motions, and encouraging the addition of other compensating motions. These people absolutely will benefit from learning good mechanics like those Randy and Scott and Steve and others advocate so well. These people should heed the advice of instructors like those I just mentioned and practice it until one nipple is as calloused as the bottom of a foot, imo.

category B elbow drops--

These are solid players whose elbow is still at the time of contact. The stroke is a simple pendulum stroke until after the cueball is gone. The impetus for dropping the elbow in the follow through perhaps comes from the desire to have a long, exaggerated follow through, or perhaps it comes from wanting a level, horizontal follow through (instead of the tip approaching the cloth as in the pendulum stroke). These people don't necessarily need to change anything. The biggest problem they cause is for others. They embolden the category A folk--who don't recognize the difference--thus providing a disincentive for the category A folk learning good mechanics.

Category C elbow drops--

This is, for example Mike Massey. These people are capable of a good pendulum stroke and perhaps employ a pendulum stroke on most of their shots. However, on power strokes, e.g., a break shot or a power draw shot, you will see an elbow drop. These players' elbows are moving at contact because the point is to add some speed by pivoting about the shoulder. In fact focusing on the elbow drop is like focusing on the thunder instead of the lightning. The lightning here is the elbow raise on the backstroke. Then pivoting about both the shoulder and elbow on the forward stroke increases speed. Most players, imo, should never do this for, say, a draw shot. The reason is that while the speed increases a bit, the bigger effect is our precision in where we contact the cueball goes down by a more significant amount. So I would say if you can't consistently draw one and a half table lengths with a pendulum stroke, then there's no way you should be futzing with this stuff. And if you CAN consistently draw one and a half table lengths with a pendulum stroke, then...well..you're more or less good to go!
 
JoeyInCali said:
Since the cueball is only about 2 1/4 inches round, if you dropped your elbow less than 3 inches, you are forgiven.
After all you "dropped" it so the tip can accelerate thru the cueball.
Hell, just do what Efren does. Play with 20 oz. cue and 12 mm tip.
Throw the darn cue.:
thumbup:

Maybe that's why I don't have much trouble drawing the rock. My player is about 19.4 ounces with an 11mm milk dud tip...
 
Scott Lee said:
Flex...The 'sometimes not' part is some flaw in your delivery.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com



Scott,

I'm a pretty humble fellow. The "sometimes not" in my prior post particularly refers to almost impossible draw shots, at least almost impossible for me, on carpeted tables, with moon rocks for balls, over ghastly distances from cue ball to object ball, and where major draw action is hoped for.

I've yet to see anyone with an absolutely "perfect" stroke, that performs perfectly regardless of the circumstance. However, I've seen many beautiful ones, no doubt.

I suppose if someone is trying to shoot a shot at breaking speed that some flaws will appear. It's probably inevitable.

Flex
 
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randyg said:
Hi Dale. What doe's this mean; "like a piston in a bore." Would you please describe it for me. Thanks....SPF=randyg

Randy:

I made this a few years ago, after seeing ads for Doug's StrokeTrainer. I called it the "Stroke-Master". Drove my wife crazy. I would go around the house chanting STROKE-master, STROKE-master.

Two bearing rings support the cue in the tube. Each ring has three roller bearings. The rings are slid onto the cue, and are sized for a friction fit near the joint, spaced about six inches apart.

Turned out to be very hard to use. It ain't natural. For one thing, you must stroke absolutely straight, along the axis of the tube, or the bearings will bind. Then there's the follow through. First time I tried to shoot a ball with it, I accidentally tried to lift the whole thing off the table at the end of the stroke, with my normal follow through. Can't do it. Gotta drop the elbow to use this.
 

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JoeyInCali said:
Why would it lead to flaws?
Are they dropping their elbow or it's their natural follow or resting the elbow?
Bustamante's really the only one I know that dramatically drops his elbow ( Mike Davis too but his shoulder is whacked ).


I'm sorry, I meant (and did say), my stroke. When I drop my elbow it leads to some flaws in my stroke (tip doesn't hit where I planned it to, and the stroke is all over the place).

I hope that clears that up.

Pete
 
Grip / Stance / Posture / Alignment

I tried the no elbow drop for about a year...I never could get comfortable with the stroke and "rythum"...It turned my stroke into a sortof jab-poke...As the shot got longer or the power got harder the jab-poke got worse.

I went back to my "old" method of if the elbow drops let it drop...I don't force it to drop and I don't force it to stay put either...I just let my natural stoke happen...

The "home" position is a great comment...If your grip is too far forward...you will have to drop your elbow to finish the stroke....However if your grip is too far back it causes other problems.

As I always seem to do...I have reverted back to my Golf Swing thoughts and process...The 4 "key" elements of a good golf swing are Grip / Stance / Posture / Alignment......"In that order"......These are all "static" pieces of the golf swing that are part of the "set up"....If your "set up" is correct a good golf swing almost happens on its own becuase your set up dicatates much of the clubs swing plane and path....Once you are set up you basically just "get out of the way" of the swing so to speak...You let it happen...

Trying to force things to happen during the golf swing is usually death to the tempo / rythum and consistency of the swing....If something is wrong with the golf swing it is usually correctable by simply adjusting one of the 4 static elements of the "set up"

I believe that pool has the very same static elements that golf has...Grip / Stance / Posture / Alingment are the 4 key elements to a perfect "set up" for a pool stroke...

NOTE - Those elements could mean slightly different positions for different types of shots...Just like Golf..

I believe that if those static elements are correct....It is the same as Golf..."Just get out of the way" and let the stroke happen.

For me...when I miss...It is becuase one of the static elements was off...Ususally from rushing the set up...due to lazyness and/or nerves...and thus end up missing due to either bad aim (Alingment) or stroke failure (grip/stance/posture)

I don't think I have ever been able to attribute a miss "directly" to an elbow drop........and even if it was the elbow drop...the question is not if it did or did not drop..but why did it drop....Probably becuase I was not set up correctly in the first place.

JMO
 
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