Castle Billiards NJ, throw player out for being too good

Good morning colonial cousins..

I am an infrequent poster but have been on and off here a bit. Some know that I am based in England and am primarily an E8B player. I like watching AP on the interweb and also follow some of my former E8B buddies smashing you lot at your own game over there :D

A quick search through my posts will show all of this. A quick search will also show I have form as a TD, commentator, backer, governing body committee member, blah blah blah though retired from the game completely about 8 years ago and only came back in about 18 months ago.

I trust this will be sufficient for those who consider I have registered this username for the sole purpose of defending the player.

I saw Danny tonight at an E8B tournament in London, England - for the first time in about 8/9 years.

He told me about this event and he also told me about this thread.

I did have a load of posts I was going to reply to but I am not going to bother. I will make a few simple points.

In the 15 or so years I have known him, I have never ever heard of or experienced any kind of behaviour that is less than honourable on the part of Danny at any point. Ever.

Any tournament of mine he has played in I have never ever had a problem.

Danny did not hide his identity. Danny Gokhul is not a run of the mill name. It strikes me as easy to research.

Danny has never played professional E8B.

I know nothing of the TD for this tournament, except that he went on to win the tournament.

It is entirely possible to play up and down in ability/standard/speed. "If horses ran to form, we would all be millionaires".

The TD claims to have had 25 years of experience in pool but "appears" to have failed convincingly in his duty to "weed out" a distinctive looking little foreign looking chap with a London accent and a foreign name - which he gave honestly. Perhaps another 25 years of experience will give him the skill set he needs to get past this cunning disguise employed by the player.

My view is that the player felt he was wronged and had legitimate grounds for complaint. The tournament director thought he was being conned and felt he had legitimate grounds for complaint.

Both may have been right. Both may have been wrong.

It may be possible that neither the player nor the TD were dishonest.

I think some of the posts, coming from people that appear not to know either the player, the TD and were not even in the same state as the tournament let alone actually at the tournament are disgusting.

The bolded part above is what I am commenting on first. You mean to say that you are appalled that people would comment harshly on something that they have had no personal experience with, were not present and have no first-hand knowledge of the situation?

Never seen that happen on the forum. :-)

As for the situation, I think it should be pretty much standard practice for all handicapped events to run an unknown name through a quick search to see what pops-up. As much as I detest the act of ROBBING tournaments I do feel that it's the tournament director's job and not the player's to determine what handicap a player should be and once entered the player should be allowed to play out the event.

This is the fundamental problem with handicapped events.

Once while on a trip to London I played in a 9 ball tournament. This one had a particularly weird way of handicapping. Lower ranked players and new comers paid a lower entry fee.

But here's the catch, the handicaps were in balls. So a top player might spot the lower ranked player the five out for example. With a TWIST - when there were five balls or less on the table the player getting the spot could directly shoot any ball in and win not just the lowest ball.

New players were automatically assigned the highest handicap. So I was spotting run out players the 4 out for example. Thus it was insured that no stranger would ever rob this event. If a strange player showed up and won it then they had to be a monster player for sure and the victory was definitely earned.

The better players almost always won anyway becuse they figured out how to move the balls around until they were sure to have an easy out before taking any chances. They knew how to keep the lower ranked players form getting to the "all money balls" stage until they had a clear out.
 
Danny is not Indian. Danny is from Guyana in the West Indies.

Danny was not "tourning the USA for two years hustling pool". He was there for six weeks mostly visiting friends and playing pool whilst there.

Handicaps are a pain. I do not personally agree with them. Better is better.

Another problem is that you can have players that dip in and out of form and also standards within a standard. For example, is SVB the same "speed" as all the other professional pool players out there?

He is better than some and not as good as others.

In the UK, it is common for ladies and under 18's (who are not internationals) to receive weight in the form of discounts. On the main IPA tour for example Ladies and Juniors (who are not professionals) get half price entry (£275 as opposed to £550).

Amateurs themselves are paying £550 as opposed to the £900 paid by the professionals.

In the UK, in all disciplines, you have to qualify to become a professional, thus, you are either a professional or you are not. The same applies to international standard. You have to qualify for international pool and so therefore you are either an international or you are not.
 
Danny is not Indian. Danny is from Guyana in the West Indies.

Danny was not "tourning the USA for two years hustling pool". He was there for six weeks mostly visiting friends and playing pool whilst there.

Handicaps are a pain. I do not personally agree with them. Better is better.

Another problem is that you can have players that dip in and out of form and also standards within a standard. For example, is SVB the same "speed" as all the other professional pool players out there?

He is better than some and not as good as others.

In the UK, it is common for ladies and under 18's (who are not internationals) to receive weight in the form of discounts. On the main IPA tour for example Ladies and Juniors (who are not professionals) get half price entry (£275 as opposed to £550).

Amateurs themselves are paying £550 as opposed to the £900 paid by the professionals.

In the UK, in all disciplines, you have to qualify to become a professional, thus, you are either a professional or you are not. The same applies to international standard. You have to qualify for international pool and so therefore you are either an international or you are not.

can you shed light over the racism allegation bit?

thanks,
brian kc
 
*If* your speed was represented accurately and you were accepted into this tourney then they should allow you to compete.

If you arrived as an unknown skill level and they were only able to take your word for it and it looked like you were above the level you declared, I think the td could then have an option to either handicap you further or forfeit you out of the tourney.

Was your skill known to the td or were there reliable people there who were able to vouch for you?

best,
brian kc

The player advises the following took place.

The TD apparently put his hand up and shouted:

"Does anyone know this guy"

Raphael Dabreo and Victor Nau responded and confirmed his status. Apparently Ram had beaten a player a little while before that one of these then had beat.

Something along those lines - I stand corrected.

These players confirmed that Ram was a similar player and Ram was put on the same handicap as these two players.

Edit to add:

Just been reminded that he confirmed he was a BCA Master player and the two regulars above confirmed this.
 
Last edited:
can you shed light over the racism allegation bit?

thanks,
brian kc

This is the reply I got from Ram by facebook message. To make it easier to read I have broken it up into paragraphs where he put multiple periods. The text has not been changed in any way:

read the post on my wall...

couple friends of mine brought up race...

they happen to be white....

i responded with I don't do racism but it's hard not to feel like it played a part...

i never played the race card...

my friend that posted on az mentioned some people thought race played a part and it turned into me playing the race card...

they are trying everything to mask what really went on...a few questions need to be asked like for instance if i really did sneak into the comp and was trying to rob it and they busted me....

apparently they decided all this on the sat night after i left and only informed me on the sun morning saying they had no way of getting hold of me which is a joke....

here is my query, why not bring back the last guy i beat sat eve and let him continue on sun...

cos he was very good, very tough match for me....

he was one of the favs...

it all went down very fishy but I'm the villain cos i sneaked in using my real name lmao

Having investigated Ram's facebook page, I can now see his FB post and can advise that there are 66 replies. Ramesh does not mention racism except to reply to day he does not do racism.

Included in those replies are:

Darren Appleton
Rob McKenna
Jayson Shaw

I reiterate, this is a well known and well respected player in the UK with a perfect reputation.
 
I can only say I'm glad voiceofreason has started posting in this thread. I can't say I know any of the people involved, but if the player in question really was trying to sneak in then why would he use his real name (in the knowledge it can be easily googled)?

Honestly, it feels like this has been slightly poorly handled by the TD, but in good faith. He's protecting his regular players and if he genuinely feels like the player was too high a standard for the tournament then it's hard to fault him too much. A quick google search before admitting him to the tournament would have saved a lot of hassle, though.

I *shudder* agree with Barton on one thing here: my gut feeling is that once a player has been admitted to a tournament then they should be allowed to play it out.

Perhaps our amateurs are just better than yours - (same as the pros are ha ha) so he appears to be pro standard in some peoples eyes?

This thought did cross my mind.
 
There is no doubt that your highest ranked amateurs are better than our amateurs in general because you guys play in an actual single tour while our best amateurs are spread out over 50 states and regional tours. Put our best amateurs together in a similar tour and no one one GB9 who isn't a pro has to like it.

it is as John Schmidt said, put all the best players together and make them play each other daily and they will all be sharp and in stroke.
 

Kinda sorta like Wayne Huang and Sean Cheng who were allowed to play in the 2012 BCAPL Open 8 ball event in Vegas. They were "Open" players correct? Ya Suuure. Most every country has their own player rating system. Just because a guy is rated as an "open" player in England doesn't make him an "open" player in the States. As there is currently no measure for who is a pro player on this side of the pond, this mess will only get worse.

Lyn
 
Last edited:
Just because a guy is rated as an "open" player in England doesn't make him an "open" player in the States. As there is currently no measure for who is a pro player on this side of the pond, this mess will only get worse.

Lyn

Fair comment...

So the situation is that the guy is over from the UK for six weeks and wants to enter a tournament and presents his case, as happened here, and the ensuing mess took place.

It is difficult for me to say in all honesty what I would have done as our criteria in the UK is much simpler. You are either a pro or not, a lady or not, a junior or not or an international player or not.

Given what the TD has said about this, I would either have refused the entry altogether or if the entry is accepted, let him play to the end.
 
Last edited:
This is the reply I got from Ram by facebook message. To make it easier to read I have broken it up into paragraphs where he put multiple periods. The text has not been changed in any way:

read the post on my wall...

couple friends of mine brought up race...

they happen to be white....
[...]

Some of the race-card callouts themselves are immediately suspect. While certain people will use the race card, white people are just as guilty of "suggesting" racism because it's on their minds as soon as they look at the skin color of a person making a complaint. "Hey Ramesh, did you happen to think 'race' could've played a part?" Yeah, right.

Anytime I hear the race card used, all credibility goes out the window.

Having investigated Ram's facebook page, I can now see his FB post and can advise that there are 66 replies. Ramesh does not mention racism except to reply to day he does not do racism.

Included in those replies are:

Darren Appleton
Rob McKenna
Jayson Shaw

I reiterate, this is a well known and well respected player in the UK with a perfect reputation.

Except he was tarnished by the "suggestion" of racism. His observation of "they happen to be white" means absolutely nothing at all.

-Sean
 
Does "open" represent a standard of ability in the USA?

An "open" tournament in the UK is a tournament open to everyone (pro or amateur) and not a standard of play.

The top tours work in this way:

For example, the IPA Professional tour has three events a weekend. The professional event, in which only qualified professionals may participate. The Amateur event on which the professionals are excluded and the "Open" Tournament in which anyone can enter (even for example a wandering US professional pool player like SVB or even a snooker professional like Mark Selby etc..
 
Does "open" represent a standard of ability in the USA?

An "open" tournament in the UK is a tournament open to everyone (pro or amateur) and not a standard of play.

The top tours work in this way:

For example, the IPA Professional tour has three events a weekend. The professional event, in which only qualified professionals may participate. The Amateur event on which the professionals are excluded and the "Open" Tournament in which anyone can enter (even for example a wandering US professional pool player like SVB or even a snooker professional like Mark Selby etc..

Without a paying tour, there are no standards of excellence. It is like pricing in a market...without free trade, no one can know the value of anything but by guessing. If there were a tour here, it would be obvious who was best and who wasn't. But there is no pricing of excellence here.

There are standards for leagues but the competition varies within each league so those standards don't mean as much in the big picture of pool.

Jeff Livingston
 
Does "open" represent a standard of ability in the USA?

An "open" tournament in the UK is a tournament open to everyone (pro or amateur) and not a standard of play.

The top tours work in this way:

For example, the IPA Professional tour has three events a weekend. The professional event, in which only qualified professionals may participate. The Amateur event on which the professionals are excluded and the "Open" Tournament in which anyone can enter (even for example a wandering US professional pool player like SVB or even a snooker professional like Mark Selby etc..

Most of the American billiards governing bodies rate amateur players as:

Grand Master - Just another name for a "pro" so they may participate in amateur events.

Master - By finishing in the top eight or so in the National "Open" event or by the ubiquitus "known ability" clause.

Advanced or Intermediate - Didn't finish quite high enough in the National event to be a Master or again, known ability.

Open - Finished out of the top 10% of the National events and not a known player.

Leisure or Standard - Hasn't cashed in the Open division.

As America has no National governing body for pool or a single recognized tour, there is no currect definition of who a "professional" player is or how one becomes one. You don't realize how lucky you are!

Lyn
 
Without a paying tour, there are no standards of excellence. It is like pricing in a market...without free trade, no one can know the value of anything but by guessing. If there were a tour here, it would be obvious who was best and who wasn't. But there is no pricing of excellence here.

There are standards for leagues but the competition varies within each league so those standards don't mean as much in the big picture of pool.

Jeff Livingston


OK fair enough.

I think I will largely rest on my opening post in that (probably) neither were at fault - from their own points of view.

I also do not believe the player was deliberately deceitful.

I can only speak for myself and Gokhul has made his own replies via me briefly and if he chooses to post further on the matter you can question him directly.

The last remaining issue then is the racism one. Looking at the FB posts again, the posts asking him if it was racist were probably meant in jest that resulted in a reply and may then have been misinterpreted when re posted here by his friend that lead to further misinterpretation by posters here that led to a reply by Gokhul that has not helped.

I abhor prejudice and racism in all its forms, but, having never walked the earth in anything but my own white skin, I am not qualified to speak about racism intelligently and so will recuse myself completely from that aspect of this matter.
 
Most of the American billiards governing bodies rate amateur players as:

Grand Master - Just another name for a "pro" so they may participate in amateur events.

Master - By finishing in the top eight or so in the National "Open" event or by the ubiquitus "known ability" clause.

Advanced or Intermediate - Didn't finish quite high enough in the National event to be a Master or again, known ability.

Open - Finished out of the top 10% of the National events and not a known player.

Leisure or Standard - Hasn't cashed in the Open division.

As America has no National governing body for pool or a single recognized tour, there is no currect definition of who a "professional" player is or how one becomes one. You don't realize how lucky you are!

Lyn

Gokhul is claiming to have declared himself as a BCA Master level player, which was apparently confirmed by two other players in the event. Based on what you knwo about him now, would you say that was a fair reflection of his ability, or is he a higher or lower standard?
 
Back
Top