Caveat emptor

genphideaux

genphideaux

The Grinder
Silver Member
I wish to address an issue that I discovered with a Cocobolo sneaky pete made by Leon Sly.

This cue was delivered to a friend of mine less than a year ago and has been used to play less than 5 racks. He purchased it with the intent of simply seeing Mr. Sly’s work and taper and then ordering a big cue if he liked it. It was kept in an environmentally controlled area. After his evaluation he passed it to me. I also keep it in environmentally controlled area.

I showed the cue to a potential buy and noticed that the cue has a finish suck around the points.

I called and emailed Mr. Sly about this problem and what fix action could be done. He informed me that this is common and that he charges $80.00 dollars to refinish a sneaky but would do it for $50.00 this time provided I ship it and pay for return shipping. He made it quite clear this was not his fault and that he had no control over this.

I called several cue makes and explained the situation and they all concurred that the blank had not been allowed to dry properly. To further add to my dilemma several asked if I had checked for straightness since finding this problem it may have caused the butt to warp. I responded that I have not but will do so post haste.

I have no problem with paying the shipping but to charge me also for a finish repair which was clearly a process defect is absurd.

I feel the title says it all "Let the buyer beware".
 
James,

Other than the shaft taper feel, buying a SP to test the playability of a cue with an A Joint cue will serve little purpose. A FS cue will have a completely different stiffness, hit and resonance that an A-Joint unit.

I happen to know that Leon's joining work is world class, his materials are select, his cue's engineering is impeccable and they hit like monsters. There are 2 SLY cue that frequent my pool hall.

Apples and oranges, JMO.

Rick
 
scdiveteam said:
James,

Other than the shaft taper feel, buying a SP to test the playability of a cue with an A Joint cue will serve little purpose. A FS cue will have a completely different stiffness, hit and resonance that an A-Joint unit.
Click to expand...

I could not agree more but I did not aquire it for this my friend did. Which I felt was very defined in my post.

scdiveteam said:
I happen to know that Leon's joining work is world class, his materials are select, his cue's engineering is impeccable and they hit like monsters. There are 2 SLY cue that frequent my pool hall.

Apples and oranges, JMO.

Rick
Click to expand...

I notice you fail to mention customer service and repair work, the exact problems I am addressing.
I feel your post is very off topic and better suited to create diversion from the situation at hand.
 
genphideaux said:
I could not agree more but I did not aquire it for this my friend did. Which I felt was very defined in my post.



I notice you fail to mention customer service and repair work, the exact problems I am addressing.
I feel your post is very off topic and better suited to create diversion from the situation at hand.
Click to expand...

James,

While all Cue Makers handle things their own way, to be honest with you, every post I have ever seen regarding cue movement starts out with or is replete with "The Cue was stored in an "Environmentally Controlled environment". You mentioned this fact twice in you first post. I am not casting any stones your way as I have no basis to do that at all but many people who abuse cues in the trunks of their car in the summer @ 150 degrees sometimes think that is controlled environment. Also if a cue is on an outside wall in a controlled environment, the wall could be colder or warmer than the room itself. Temperature differential is is also a possibility and a very common problem that is not understood by most players! Cue racks should never be mounted on an outside wall.

Talking to other CMs about a finish problem without inspection of same is useless IMO. Assuming that the blank was not dry does not hold water as any proof whatsoever. I would point out that finishes subject to extreme heat conditions can also be the root cause for what you describe.

I think the more germane question is: Should a cue maker warrantee his work in the secondary cue market and how old was the cue when you bought it? Wood that does not move in one years time generally is going to remain very stable unless it is shocked. Did you roll the cue and test it for straightness when you acquired it? These questions are the meat of the issues you raise concerning a highly respected Cue Maker in our industry.

I have no skin in this game but understand there is a lot of factors on a subject like this. Coming to Ask the Cue Maker to call out someone about a second hand cue, you should be prepared to listen to other CMs opinions.

Any way opinions are like assholes anyway, we all have them.:yeah:

JMO,

Rick
 
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From your diatribe I should I have used the phrase “I do not abuse my cues”? I was simply implying that the environment was not harsh for this cue. It resides in the same environment that more than 50 custom cues are subjected too every day and they are showing none of the aforementioned problems.

Following in you same vein of satire, the cue was inspected by several cue makers.


scdiveteam said:
James,
I think the more germane question is: Should a cue maker warrantee his work in the secondary cue market and how old was the cue when you bought it? Wood that does not move in one years time generally is going to remain very stable unless it is shocked. Did you roll the cue and test it for straightness when you acquired it? These questions are the meat of the issues you raise a highly concerning respected Cue Maker in our industry.

I have no skin in this game but understand there is a lot of factors on a subject like this. Coming to Ask the Cue Maker to call out someone about a second hand cue, you should be prepared to listen to other CMs opinions.

JMO,

Rick
Click to expand...

My point exactly. I posted here not to as you say "call someone out" but to address a growing mental state of "out of sight out of mind" or more to the point irresponsibility.

The cue was less than a month old when I acquired it and it was inspected for straightness.

I more than welcome open dialog and opinions as long as it is it fair, informative and on topic. I do realize that satire and ridicule are common tactics but are of little value to those seeking information.
 
genphideaux said:
From your diatribe I should I have used the phrase “I do not abuse my cues”? I was simply implying that the environment was not harsh for this cue. It resides in the same environment that more than 50 custom cues are subjected too every day and they are showing none of the aforementioned problems.

Following in you same vein of satire, the cue was inspected by several cue makers.




My point exactly. I posted here not to as you say "call someone out" but to address a growing mental state of "out of sight out of mind" or more to the point irresponsibility.

The cue was less than a month old when I acquired it and it was inspected for straightness.

I more than welcome open dialog and opinions as long as it is it fair, informative and on topic. I do realize that satire and ridicule are common tactics but are of little value to those seeking information.
Click to expand...

Fair Enough.

I just wished to point out some things that I thought were on topic. It sounds like you know how to take care of cues properly.

So I am assuming that you rolled the cue and it is straight at this time with just a finish aberration?

Rick
 
scdiveteam said:
Fair Enough.

I just wished to point out some things that I thought were on topic. It sounds like you know how to take care of cues properly.

So I am assuming that you rolled the cue and it is straight at this time with just a finish aberration?

Rick
Click to expand...

I appreciate your candor and questions which helped to better illuminate my dilemma.

To answer your last question there has been some debate as to the current straightness of the butt which I hope to verify today.
 
genphideaux said:
Rick and stratshutr

It has been verified straight by spinning on a lathe so that is not a concern.
Click to expand...

i am not a cuemaker
the butt is straight
you are not the original owner
you should apologize to to leon sly
thats my opinion
and im sticking to it
 
Perhaps a picture of the 'finish suck' around the points, that was mentioned in the first post?
I myself have not seen a 'finish suck' and don't quite know what you mean with that term. I will say that in my experiences, if the blank isn't dry, or seasoned enough, that blank usually moves a bunch, at the base of the points, not suck a dry finish into it. Seeing that the cue spun straight in a lathe, IMO, the dryness of the blank is not the issue.
As I suggested, some pictures would be a great idea so that everyone knows exactly what your complaining about.
Dave
 
James, I hope you have a vey very good camera that can indicate this...finish suck = points popping???
 
genphideaux said:
I wish to address an issue that I discovered with a Cocobolo sneaky pete made by Leon Sly.

This cue was delivered to a friend of mine less than a year ago and has been used to play less than 5 racks. He purchased it with the intent of simply seeing Mr. Sly’s work and taper and then ordering a big cue if he liked it. It was kept in an environmentally controlled area. After his evaluation he passed it to me. I also keep it in environmentally controlled area.

I showed the cue to a potential buy and noticed that the cue has a finish suck around the points.

I called and emailed Mr. Sly about this problem and what fix action could be done. He informed me that this is common and that he charges $80.00 dollars to refinish a sneaky but would do it for $50.00 this time provided I ship it and pay for return shipping. He made it quite clear this was not his fault and that he had no control over this.

I called several cue makes and explained the situation and they all concurred that the blank had not been allowed to dry properly. To further add to my dilemma several asked if I had checked for straightness since finding this problem it may have caused the butt to warp. I responded that I have not but will do so post haste.

I have no problem with paying the shipping but to charge me also for a finish repair which was clearly a process defect is absurd.

I feel the title says it all "Let the buyer beware".
Click to expand...
I guess $ 50.00 got the best of you..now the refinishing is priceless..the cue is well over a year old your the second owner and your looking for something free...Beware!...we talked on the phone a few days ago you agreed to pay for the refinishing i gave you my mailing address...then you post this bull$hit get a life pops grow up.
 
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I feel your post is very off topic and better suited to create diversion from the situation at hand.
Click to expand...

Well, I feel that this is the Ask the Cue Maker Forum, not Bash the Cue Maker Forum.

It didn't read to me that you were asking any specific questions and your first post was to create a diversion to start a bash thread.

Post some pics and maybe explain what a finish suck is please.

Leon doesn't so this s hit to people and if he does, there is generally a good reason.

After a year and a second owner, Leon is being most generous for a $50 finish.

What do want for nothing, Rubber Biscuit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYyBZE0kBtE

PS - Would you also be kind enuff to also post pictures of both your friends and yours, Environmentally Controlled Areas.

I have never had the pleasure of seeing a vacuum chamber designed by a Nasa Engineer.

Was the trunk or back seat of your vehicles used during transport also Environmentally Controlled?

Terry - Who owns 2 Sly sneakys and after several years, the finish isn't close to sucking, its still 100% A OK. And I keep my cues in the basement.
 
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gkloop,

You are very correct, after several failed attempts I have yet to capture it.

To all others,

My point was to open a discussion on what responsibilities a cue maker had after the sale. I fully expected the bashing and am prepared to address it if it is on topic or rational.
The cost was and is not the issue, and yet again I reiterate “is a cue maker’s faulty process his responsibility”.
 
genphideaux said:
gkloop,

You are very correct, after several failed attempts I have yet to capture it.

To all others,

My point was to open a discussion on what responsibilities a cue maker had after the sale. I fully expected the bashing and am prepared to address it if it is on topic or rational.
The cost was and is not the issue, and yet again I reiterate “is a cue maker’s faulty process his responsibility”.
Click to expand...

I think the vast majority of cuemakers would offer some kind of reduced refinish/repair for the original buyer on a situation such as this, especially if the cue is a few years old or less. If the cue has changed hands once or multiple times, then I don't personally believe it should be a cuemaker's responsibility. Although, even in that situation you'll probably still find a lot of them (good people) that would agree to fix this by offering the same kind of deal.

I would think most people that have been around cues for any length of time understand that components in a cue are subject to move to some degree over time with changing environments, humidity, temp, etc....all these things can affect a cue. If you can't live with a little bit of movement in a cue, I would kindly suggest taking up a new sport/hobby. If not, you're probably subject to go nuts! To everyone that says, "well, my X cue is YY years old and is still the same", I say it probably has moved a little, you probably just aren't perceptive enough to have noticed it over time because it's so minimal. And if it really hasn't, it's way the exception, rather than the norm.

Lastly, I don't know anyone with the expectation to buy a sneaky and put it up on some kind of pedestal to observe how perfect is stays over time. Cues, like this especially, are built as tools....they are meant to be used and will probably get dinged up and worn and yes, have a few finish issues and/or contraction.
 
Almost all finishes shrink some amount over time it's part of the curing process. In this instance since the cue has changed hands who knows if it even has the original finish from Mr. Sly? It is quite possible it was already refinished by someone else. Even if it has not been refinished I have never heard of any cuemaker that offers an assumable warantee on his finishes. Most if any warantees are applied to the original owners only unless stated otherwise.
 
Cueaddicts,

You have presented some very good points to consider. I will interject that the original owner was more than willing to handle this himself and in retrospect this may have been the better course of action.
“I don't know anyone with the expectation to buy a sneaky and put it up on some kind of pedestal to observe how perfect is stays over time”.
I do believe that if you had the opportunity to examine this cue you would agree that this is more than the excepted norm. I have several sneaky pete’s from other makers and I do expect a certain amount of movement and finish suck but this is way beyond that expectation.
I will continue to play this fine game and chalk this up to lessons learned.

Quesports,
The original owner and I are in contact on weekly bases. I am more than confident that the finish has never been redone.
 
I'd like to point out that your sneaky was probably a full splice blank that was made by someone like Schmelke and then converted by Leon. It is not the same as a Sly custom cue completely built by Mr. Sly except maybe the shaft and custom taper. The price is also a lot different than a Sly custom. You want the cuemaker to make chicken salad for a chicken $hit price cue. You need to grow up. Do you also work for free like you expect of others?
"country" Bob
 
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