Center CB Rules Most Of The Time

[Cornerman]

So joe, just to see if we're on the same page... I get the idea that people shouldn't read those out-of-context quotes and become scared of inside. They need to get comfy with it and be able to use it at will, like it's not a big deal.

Would you say anyone should use inside strictly to make a ball, without any positional worries? (i.e. when the cue ball is not going to touch a rail?) Because I only use inside in 2 situations:

1. I'm gonna hit a rail and use inside to spin the CB along a desired path.
2. I can't quite hit the ball full enough and must throw it in

I can't imagine just making balls with inside in a game situation, when neither of those situations applies.

I've heard a few people say use inside on long thin cuts if you're just trying to make a tough shot, but I find I do best with center top for that.

I'm not Joe, but... there are some shots that have a wider margin of error with inside, specifically frozen object balls at certain angles if making the ball is the only concern are near impossible with outside, but have three different contacts styles with inside that still make the object ball.

There are also certain shots where i use inside for no other reason but to mitigate skid. I think once a player get comfy using inside, they see these shots as "the right way."

Freddie

 

[Joe T]

So joe, just to see if we're on the same page... I get the idea that people shouldn't read those out-of-context quotes and become scared of inside. They need to get comfy with it and be able to use it at will, like it's not a big deal.

Would you say anyone should use inside strictly to make a ball, without any positional worries? (i.e. when the cue ball is not going to touch a rail?) Because I only use inside in 2 situations:

1. I'm gonna hit a rail and use inside to spin the CB along a desired path.
2. I can't quite hit the ball full enough and must throw it in

I can't imagine just making balls with inside in a game situation, when neither of those situations applies.

I've heard a few people say use inside on long thin cuts if you're just trying to make a tough shot, but I find I do best with center top for that.

I'm not saying people shouldn't read'em cuz they don't know what they're about to read. I'm saying people should make them or be more careful when making them and instructors shouldn't teach them.

Not like its no big deal, cuz it is a big deal, its a very important part of becoming a player. The out of context remarks often send our aspiring players down the wrong path to improvement.

Efren once pocketed a $ ball with inside and my friend asked him why he used inside on that shot? His answer was because it cuts the ball cleaner and he knew how it was going to react. Not sure if he was talking about throw or like CJ was talking about hitting a little one way or the other off center to make the shot more predictable.

When I was a B player I would hit a $ ball cut along the rail with outside (like most american players of the day), when I became an open player I preferred to do it with inside.

Yes I'm using inside when going to a rail most of the time, I'm not advocating inside just for the sake of inside, although I do make my student learn stop shots with side spin to help them get use to delivering the cb to a certain spot with side spin.

 

[Joe T]

I think once a player get comfy using inside, they see these shots as "the right way."

Freddie

Why didn't I think of that?

 

[dr_dave]

Not sure I agree with the less than 25 degrees though. I agree a little spin can cause more cit with less than 25 not sure about a lot of spin though.

Joe,

Think about a very small cut angle first ... let's say 0 degrees (straight hit). With no Enlgish, there is absolutely no throw (i.e., the OB goes straight). However, with inside English, the OB gets thrown quite a bit. The amount of throw is less with 100% English than it is at 50%, but there is still significant throw with maximum inside English. This applies to other small cuts (greater than 0) also, up to a point where the amount of throw with no English is the same as the amount of throw with maximum inside. Diagram 3 in the CIT/SIT article predicts the crossover point to be just beyond 20 degrees. Now, this all assumes that one is compensating for squirt and swerve so the CB is hitting the OB the same place in all of the comparisons (but I know you know this).

I know everyone here has had a slight backcut around 10-20 degrees down the long rail on the money ball and has put "just a touch" of outside only to throw the ball into the side cushion (sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't)

I know what your mean, but it depends on what you actually mean by "just a touch." See Diagram 2 in the following article:

"Throw - Part VI: inside/outside English" (BD, January, 2007)​

To get no throw on a 20 degree cut, you need about 25% outside English. As you can see in the illustration below, 25% ain't as much as one might think:

If you use less than this (a small "just a touch"), the ball will still throw away from the rail a little (although, by not by as much as it would if you use no English). However, if you use more than this (a large "just a touch"), then the ball will throw into the rail as you suggest. Your "just a touch" must be the "large" variety. If you use inside English instead, the amount of throw will be much more consistent and predictable with small differences in spin (and close to zero with 100% spin).

Not tellem to load up with max side spin on that shot but if you can get your cb rotating more than less (perhaps decent backspin) you can worry less about whether its going to throw or not.

Again, if you don't load up on the inside English, there will be a little throw on this shot, but it will be fairly consistent with different amounts of spin (unlike with outside English).

Good discussion!

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Slide Rule]

I have to disagree with what the pros do.

Someone who has been shooting a couple of years should stick to center cue ball. Keep at it about three years. Same for someone who has shot a number of years and is not improving. Go back and shoot center ball exclusively for an extended period. The reason is that you train yourself on all the natural patterns. Shooting off center also requires aim adjustments. Adjustments that will feed your mind erroneous information.


I have to disagree with what the pros do.
Look at the last Mosconi Cup play. Shot after shot, time after time, I noticed that the cue tip was what looked like a quarter ball mostly outside. Once you can aim this way, you are basically throwing the ball to the pocket. You are hitting the object ball fuller. You can control the cue ball to a much greater degree.

This is more important in a rotational game like 9 or 10 ball. You have to get shape for any chance. It is also useful in 8 ball when shooting on a congested table.


Look again at a bit of the Mosconi Cup and observe the degree of English. I mean extreme English.


There are lessons to learn with every aspect of shooting.

Sure center ball makes the ball, but limits cue ball position. English helps to keep in line. We are looking for a balance of what is needed to do the job. Shot by shot.

I have recently developed a technique which allows extreme English. It has expanded my game.

:thumbup:

 

[dr_dave]

Not sure I agree with the less than 25 degrees though. I agree a little spin can cause more cit with less than 25 not sure about a lot of spin though.

Joe,

Another big factor is shot speed. There is much less throw on inside English shots at faster speed. Also, at faster speeds, not as much inside English is required to keep the throw small. And the small amount of throw will be fairly consistent over at wide range of inside English percentages. If you are curious, I have a large collection of throw plots that shows all of the trends for all situations (i.e., for various cut anglse, stun vs. different amounts of draw or follow, types and amounts of spin, and shot speeds) in TP A.28. These plots aren't as "friendly" as the versions in my articles, but more cases are covered. For example, the effect I am describing above can be seen in the 2nd plot on page 3 of the document. For a relatively fast speed 30 degree cut angle, a wide range of inside English percentages results in a consistent and small amount of throw (see the left side of the green curve, which is very level and close to 0).

I know everyone here has had a slight backcut around 10-20 degrees down the long rail on the money ball and has put "just a touch" of outside only to throw the ball into the side cushion (sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't)
Not tellem to load up with max side spin on that shot but if you can get your cb rotating more than less (perhaps decent backspin) you can worry less about whether its going to throw or not.

Again, with more shot speed, you don't need to "load up" on the inside as much to gain the benefits.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Joe T]

Joe,

Think about a very small cut angle first ... let's say 0 degrees (straight hit). With no Enlgish, there is absolutely no throw (i.e., the OB goes straight). However, with inside English, the OB gets thrown quite a bit. The amount of throw is less with 100% English than it is at 50%, but there is still significant throw with maximum inside English. This applies to other small cuts (greater than 0) also, up to a point where the amount of throw with no English is the same as the amount of throw with maximum inside. Diagram 3 in the CIT/SIT article predicts the crossover point to be just beyond 20 degrees. Now, this all assumes that one is compensating for squirt and swerve so the CB is hitting the OB the same place in all of the comparisons (but I know you know this).

I know what your mean, but it depends on what you actually mean by "just a touch." See Diagram 2 in the following article:

"Throw - Part VI: inside/outside English" (BD, January, 2007)​

To get no throw on a 20 degree cut, you need about 25% outside English. As you can see in the illustration below, 25% ain't as much as one might think:

If you use less than this (a small "just a touch"), the ball will still throw away from the rail a little (although, by not by as much as it would if you use no English). However, if you use more than this (a large "just a touch"), then the ball will throw into the rail as you suggest. Your "just a touch" must be the "large" variety. If you use inside English instead, the amount of throw will be much more consistent and predictable with small differences in spin (and close to zero with 100% spin).

Again, if you don't load up on the inside English, there will be a little throw on this shot, but it will be fairly consistent with different amounts of spin (unlike with outside English).

Good discussion!

Cheers,
Dave

I gotcha and see the fine line of applied english and the different effect it can have. It is a good conversation and the only reason I jumped in is because I'm actually angry about how this kind of advice has been passed down, taken out of context and has mislead many a player.

Teaching someone to properly use spin takes a fair amount of time and effort on both parts and I believe is avoided by many people teaching other players and a lot of past instructional materials.
I guess its easier to say "hey, we avoid that whenever possible so lets just get back to focusing on keeping that head down"

Sorry to seem negative but I'm pretty passionate about this. I've seen dozens or hundeds of stick figured center ball players not make it past a c level on their best days and then look over and see this kid who stands anyway he wants runout over and over because he knows how to use the cb.

 

[dr_dave]

I gotcha and see the fine line of applied english and the different effect it can have. It is a good conversation and the only reason I jumped in is because I'm actually angry about how this kind of advice has been passed down, taken out of context and has mislead many a player.

Teaching someone to properly use spin takes a fair amount of time and effort on both parts and I believe is avoided by many people teaching other players and a lot of past instructional materials.
I guess its easier to say "hey, we avoid that whenever possible so lets just get back to focusing on keeping that head down"

Sorry to seem negative but I'm pretty passionate about this. I've seen dozens or hundeds of stick figured center ball players not make it past a c level on their best days and then look over and see this kid who stands anyway he wants runout over and over because he knows how to use the cb.

Thank you for the good discussion. Like you, I think this is very important stuff ... as is vision center, for which you also seem to appreciate and understand well.

Have a great weekend,
Dave

 

[CJ Wiley]

"the reasons are simple"

:speechless:

While watching top pros on stream and they get a bit out of position, most of them show they're pissed off about it. In the chat room you will see people saying, Oh come on stop being a little brat...the shot you left isn't that hard.

It's not that the shot is hard if that's all you need to make in the run. But most of the time they have to get away from center ball and juice the CB a bit or a lot. The pro knows that this makes the percentage for a miss or bad position go way up.

Set up 9 balls in connect the dots fashion. Now with bih run out using center ball or a hair of natual english. Now put those 9 balls back up and try to run out using left or right english...no center ball. See how much harder it is. Johnnyt

The game now is about simplicity...but that's more of a result of the current equipment.... with super fast cloth and rails the game is more about just "not making mistakes" and playing simple patterns.....without moving the cue ball around unnecessarily..... what could be more exciting? I'm kidding of course....this style of play is more boring to watch than it is to play.

 

[Cornerman]

Someone who has been shooting a couple of years should stick to center cue ball. Keep at it about three years. Same for someone who has shot a number of years and is not improving. Go back and shoot center ball exclusively for an extended period. The reason is that you train yourself on all the natural patterns. Shooting off center also requires aim adjustments. Adjustments that will feed your mind erroneous information.


I have to disagree with what the pros do.
Look at the last Mosconi Cup play. Shot after shot, time after time, I noticed that the cue tip was what looked like a quarter ball mostly outside. Once you can aim this way, you are basically throwing the ball to the pocket. You are hitting the object ball fuller. You can control the cue ball to a much greater degree.

This is more important in a rotational game like 9 or 10 ball. You have to get shape for any chance. It is also useful in 8 ball when shooting on a congested table.


Look again at a bit of the Mosconi Cup and observe the degree of englilsh. I mean extreme english.


There are lessons to learn with every aspect of shooting.

Sure center ball makes the ball, but limits cue ball position. English helps to keep in line. We are looking for a balance of what is needed to do the job. Shot by shot.

I have recently developed a technique which allows extreme english. It has expanded my game.

:thumbup:

Thumbs up!!! Observation is a wonderful thing, ain't it?

Freddie <~~~ glad to see people observe instead of fantasize

 

[ENGLISH!]

Sure center ball makes the ball, but limits cue ball position. English helps to keep in line. We are looking for a balance of what is needed to do the job. Shot by shot.

I have recently developed a technique which allows extreme english. It has expanded my game. by Sliderule


I agree. It is not KISS. It is, make it as easy on yourself as you can. An easy shot made with the correct english can make the next shot that would have been a little difficult as easy as eating pie.

Once you understand & have mastered english the game changes. It's kind of like painting. One 'painter' is painting houses & another 'painter' is painting masterpieces. Once you've used an artist's brush & have painted masterpieces, why would you ever go back to painting houses.

Short term with low aspirations use 'center' cue ball.

Long term with high aspirations use english as often as you can. It is the only way to' learn' to 'master' it. (Hit a million balls.)

The bottom line is to do what is best for you or to teach what is best for the individual pupil & his or her aspirations.

This has been a good thread with almost all good content.

 

[Slide Rule]

Sometimes a lose is a win.

I am trying to be more observant. In this case it helped my game.

I appreciate encouragement from those who have experienced the happy result of fine cue ball control without sacrificing shot making accuracy.

The Mosconi Cup was a disaster for the US, but it resulted in my learning something important.

Sometimes a lose is a win.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Maximum Accuracy

Thumbs up!!! Observation is a wonderful thing, ain't it?

Freddie <~~~ glad to see people observe instead of fantasize

The pros are appearing to cue the ball off center because it is more accurate....there's nothing more difficult than trying to hit the center of the ball every time....their method doesn't depend on unrealistic precision.

 

[Cornerman]

The pros are appearing to cue the ball off center because it is more accurate....there's nothing more difficult than trying to hit the center of the ball every time....their method doesn't depend on unrealistic precision.

Thanks CJ. This is a important and subtle point that gets missed.

If a player aims center, but hits a hair off center, the position play can get blown if they're a hair to the wrong side of the cue ball.. If a player aims off center and is a hair off his cue ball aim point, he's still hitting the side of the cue ball he wanted to.

I've been asked by observing players over the years why I hit such-and-such with left-hand english when it didn't look like I needed it. My answer often is "because I wanted to be sure I didn't hit with right-hand english." And I show the disasters of what even an accidental touch of the opposite english yields.

Freddie <~~~ often disastrous

 

[Mitchxout]

I've been asked by observing players over the years why I hit such-and-such with left-hand english when it didn't look like I needed it. My answer often is "because I wanted to be sure I didn't hit with right-hand english."

Good answer. :thumbup: Although, centerball is a great tool in the bag when you need it.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The pros are appearing to cue the ball off center because it is more accurate....there's nothing more difficult than trying to hit the center of the ball every time....their method doesn't depend on unrealistic precision.

'their method doesn't depend on unrealistic precision'

Thanks Mr. Wiley for telling the truth. I hope I spelled your name correctly. Please conitinue with your Professional, first hand insights. The game needs you and others like yourself if it has any hope to garner the respect it once had but all too quickly vanished. Tap! Tap! Tap! for you. You are a credit to your Profession.

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks CJ. This is a important and subtle point that gets missed.

If a player aims center, but hits a hair off center, the position play can get blown if they're a hair to the wrong side of the cue ball.. If a player aims off center and is a hair off his cue ball aim point, he's still hitting the side of the cue ball he wanted to.

I've been asked by observing players over the years why I hit such-and-such with left-hand english when it didn't look like I needed it. My answer often is "because I wanted to be sure I didn't hit with right-hand english." And I show the disasters of what even an accidental touch of the opposite english yields.

Freddie,

This is an interesting concept. I'm not sure I buy into it yet, but I would like to do an analysis and experiment on my own to see if it makes sense physically. Even if it doesn't make sense physically, it still might make sense psychologically; however, I want to explore the physical part first.

Could you describe a shot or two, with game-situation context, where you think this effect is important? Please give me more info so I can do an appropriate analysis and experiment.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Freddie,

This is an interesting concept. I'm not sure I buy into it yet, but I would like to do an analysis and experiment on my own to see if it makes sense physically. Even if it doesn't make sense physically, it still might make sense psychologically; however, I want to explore the physical part first.

Could you describe a shot or two, with game-situation context, where you think this effect is important? Please give me more info so I can do an appropriate analysis and experiment.

Freddie,

Here's an example of what I am looking for from you:

For a straight-in stop shot, where the CB is no more than 2 feet from the OB, and the OB is no more than 3 feet from the pocket, and one can't allow the CB to drift to the right even the slightest (or position will be blown for the next shot), aim for a perfectly square hit on the OB (adjusting for squirt and swerve as necessary) and use a hair of left English to throw the OB to the right of the pocket center slightly. This will guarantee the CB does not drift right.​

I'm not suggesting this is what you are recommending. It is just an example of the type of detail I need to do an appropriate analysis.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Cornerman]

Freddie,

Here's an example of what I am looking for from you:

For a straight-in stop shot, where the CB is no more than 2 feet from the OB, and the OB is no more than 3 feet from the pocket, and one can't allow the CB to drift to the right even the slightest (or position will be blown for the next shot), aim for a perfectly square hit on the OB (adjusting for squirt and swerve as necessary) and use a hair of left English to throw the OB to the right of the pocket center slightly. This will guarantee the CB does not drift right.​

I'm not suggesting this is what you are recommending. It is just an example of the type of detail I need to do an appropriate analysis.

Thanks,
Dave

I think it's simpler than this. If we admit that we as amateurs or even advanced players can't hit the exact vertical center all the time, then hedging to one side solves a problem.

Let's say we're cutting the OB to the right foot corner about half ball and we intend to double the left foot corner, go through the center of the table back to the head. Standard 9- ball shot. If you aim center ball, you can make this pattern no problem as the cue all will pick up running off the first two cushions naturally. If you hit with outside, again no problem. If you hit this shot with inside, you kill the object ball and your angle won't run.

IF you hedge outside, if you don't exactly hit your cue ball spot, you're still running your pattern. If you aim center and you don't exactly hit vertical center, you might get the killed action and you're done.

This type of error in sight or stroke will manifest itself I'd say on cuts to one side more than the other because we're repeatable human beings.

People can talk about hitting center all day long and working on centergistics, which is all good, but if you can increase your margin of error for running balls, it's something to consider.

Freddie <~~~ repeatably errorific

 

[dr_dave]

Let's say we're cutting the OB to the right foot corner about half ball and we intend to double the left foot corner, go through the center of the table back to the head. Standard 9- ball shot. If you aim center ball, you can make this pattern no problem as the cue all will pick up running off the first two cushions naturally. If you hit with outside, again no problem. If you hit this shot with inside, you kill the object ball and your angle won't run.

IF you hedge outside, if you don't exactly hit your cue ball spot, you're still running your pattern. If you aim center and you don't exactly hit vertical center, you might get the killed action and you're done.

I agree completely with your argument for a shot like this. I also agree that this is a "standard" and important shot, especially in 9-ball/10-ball. The 45-degree rule for center-table position and routes resource page features this type of shot, and Tom and I cover it in detail on VEPS.

I assume you are using a rolling CB. If not, then a bigger issue would be controlling the amount of vertical plane spin (top/bottom/stun), which would have an even bigger effect on the shot than being a "hair" off with left-right tip placement.

There's no need to analyze this one ... the answer is obvious. If you use inside on a shot like this, the resulting CB path and distance vary a lot with slight changes in the amount of spin. However, if outside is used, it is much easier to get the CB around the table, and the path and distance are very repeatable even with slight changes in the amount of spin. I would think most top players would use outside on this shot, unless they needed to limit CB travel. Although, I wouldn't describe this as center ball with a slight "hedge" to the outside. I would call it straight outside.

However, if center ball is used on this shot, I don't think being just a "hair" off center (left or right) has a huge effect, unless the "hair" is quite thick. I just hit about 20 rolling-CB 1/2-ball hit shots like you described, attempting to position the tip on the vertical centerline on each shot, and the resulting paths were fairly consistent; and I am far from pro level, so I would obviously expect a pro to do much better. Now, when I purposely added a small amount of outside or a small amount of inside (i.e., more than a "hair"), the differences in CB paths and distances were dramatic. Regardless, I agree with you that outside is the right play on a shot like this.

Thank you for clarifying your concept. It makes sense to me now. However, it seemed like CJ was implying something a little different in one of the other threads (closer to the example I suggested above), but I could be wrong.

Catch you later,
Dave