Challenge of Champions dump
- Thread starter hang-the-9
- Start date
Old Nine Baller
Banned
John,
You may be assuming that all other 7 players went to Hopkins and asked if he'd participate. It's more likely that one person close to Hopkins brought it up to him in private, with no witnesses and therefore Hopkins could never say with certainty that the 7 players conspired. Also, one player talking to Hopkins in private would never prove a "conspiracy to defraud".
I'll tell you something that apparently nobody else here will tell you; you are perfectly right that there is zero evidence that a dump occurred. There is no proof whatsoever but that's the way dumps are. Usually only two to 5 people know what's going on because they're involved in it. I've seen matches that I found out the next day were dumps and I've seen dumps that I knew were dumps and I could never prove any of them.
Now I'll tell you something else that nobody has brought up in this thread; there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that Hopkins was not a part of the dump if it did in fact occur. Food for thought for all those attacking John, there is more than one way to look at this.
That said, I'll say this too; I just watched the Hopkins vs. Hall match and from the games that were shown (ESPN cuts away to other things when it feels like it) Hopkins absolutely tried to win but Hall played better and got a very lucky roll in game 8 to hook Hopkins on the 2 ball. Hopkins kicked and missed it and Hall ran out. This was after Hopkins made 3 balls on the break and got hooked on the 2 ball. He pushed out, Hall shot, missed but hit the 2 and hooked Hopkins.
The match went like this:
Hopkins plays well and so does Hall but Hopkins takes a 2-0 lead.
ESPN cuts away and when it comes back the score is 2-2.
Hopkins runs out game 6 to make it 3-3.
ESPN cuts away again and upon return the score is 4-3 Hall.
Game 8: Hopkins breaks and makes three balls but gets hooked on the 2 ball. He pushes out. Hall takes the shot. He hits the 2 ball but misses pocketing it and he hooks Hopkins. Hopkins kicks and misses the 2. Hall has BIH and runs out, a fairly nice out to. He had to bank the 4 ball cross-side after playing position on it there.
My point is this: Hopkins tried to win this match and so did Hall. They both had ample reason to play their best and try to win. If there was a dump, Hall needed to knock Hopkins out of it so the dump could proceed and if there wasn't a dump then both guys were just trying to win.
There are 7 or 8 guys who know what happened and they'll never tell. It's only business to them, nothing personal.
ONB
Then you can bet your $10. as well.
Here's one for AtLarge "how many times has CJ won three matches in a row in a major tournament on ESPN (singles and/or doubles)?" We'll make it multiple choice:
1) 0
2) 1
3) 2
4) 3
5) 4
First one to answer correctly will win all 7 of our current DVDs - all autographed and sent to you on Monday morning.
I will go for the:
4) 3
How did I do ??? :smile:
TBH I would be worried about you and your fellow pro chopping up the rail if we set up something like that.
I am pretty sure the CJ Wiley of today is not a favorite against Johnny Archer or Rodney Morris but I am also pretty sure that you have those guys on speed dial on your cell phone and if we the fans tried to help you out by putting up a stake on the other side of this match so you can get played you would be on the phone with Rodney or Archer immediately having a discussion how best to chop up our cash.
That is the bed your fellow pros built CJ, and now you are stuck laying in it. Sorry.
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At least the ref was not part of the dump.
Every time I hear the word dump this dang vision always appears .
it plays over and over .....Lord help me.:grin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmGNT7x3zBI
there was NO MENTION of these claims by anyone in the early 90s that I'm aware of
Even Federal snitches are required to have some proof.....phone records, gambling records/receipts, recorded conversations, etc.
You can take the position that every final in the history of pool was "fixed" if you want to, and it's still just your opinion.
I have no idea what happened on that day, although I have an opinion that Buddy's name should not be drug through the mud 23 years later......if there was a time to bring these allegations up it would have been in 1991 or 1992, not 2014......I was heavily involved in pool and played in the 'Challenge of Champions' in 1994.....there was NO MENTION of these claims by anyone, and furthermore the Mirage was still booking the tournament.... I have no idea how anyone can take the position that this match was such a big deal - Mike Lebron won and Buddy apparently played poorly because of the pressure, his health, the "waxed" balls, the heat (ESPN Lights) or maybe he didn't want to win because of some "hidden agenda" or conspiracy....again, I have no idea.
Even Federal snitches are required to have some proof.....phone records, gambling records/receipts, recorded conversations, etc.
You can take the position that every final in the history of pool was "fixed" if you want to, and it's still just your opinion.
I have no idea what happened on that day, although I have an opinion that Buddy's name should not be drug through the mud 23 years later......if there was a time to bring these allegations up it would have been in 1991 or 1992, not 2014......I was heavily involved in pool and played in the 'Challenge of Champions' in 1994.....there was NO MENTION of these claims by anyone, and furthermore the Mirage was still booking the tournament.... I have no idea how anyone can take the position that this match was such a big deal - Mike Lebron won and Buddy apparently played poorly because of the pressure, his health, the "waxed" balls, the heat (ESPN Lights) or maybe he didn't want to win because of some "hidden agenda" or conspiracy....again, I have no idea.
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Buddy didnt play bad ...he hit em the way he intended. 7 to 7 he tries to fire at a 1.. 9 combo. Allen I think makes a comment on the odds of the shot. Playing for 50k he fires at it misses the whole ball and leaves Mike a chance to win. He could've at least tried to play safe on the shot.(the right shot) Watch it...the worse shot on the table and he plays it....it would be understandable if he's playing the score...maybe 7 to 3 maybe 4 but at 7 ..7 are you shooting that shot? And that's not the only dumpy ass shot either.
You got excuses for everything but the truth.
Being Buddy Hall's "judge and jury" is no small undertaking, he has earned loyalty
I don't know what happened, and neither do you. Being Buddy Hall's "judge and jury" is no small undertaking, he has earned loyalty from a lot of stand up people.... if your proof is a hand full of sh*t you must acquit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
Even Federal snitches are required to have some proof.....phone records, gambling records/receipts, recorded conversations, etc.
You can take the position that every final in the history of pool was "fixed" if you want to, and it's still just your opinion.
I don't know what happened, and neither do you. Being Buddy Hall's "judge and jury" is no small undertaking, he has earned loyalty from a lot of stand up people.... if your proof is a hand full of sh*t you must acquit.
Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
Even Federal snitches are required to have some proof.....phone records, gambling records/receipts, recorded conversations, etc.
You can take the position that every final in the history of pool was "fixed" if you want to, and it's still just your opinion.
Buddy didnt play bad ...he hit em the way he intended. 7 to 7 he tries to fire at a 1.. 9 combo. Allen I think makes a comment on the odds of the shot. Playing for 50k he fires at it misses the whole ball and leaves Mike a chance to win. He could've at least tried to play safe on the shot.(the right shot) Watch it...the worse shot on the table and he plays it....it would be understandable if he's playing the score...maybe 7 to 3 maybe 4 but at 7 ..7 are you shooting that shot? And that's not even the only dumpy ass shot either.
You got excuses for everything but the truth.
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I guess number 5, FTW.
dave howard missed an easy nine ball in his set with mike. that is most important as well.
but as far as cj beating the best player three sets in a row the odds are 7 to 1 if they are dead equal.
if cj is a 2 to 1 dog in each set then cj is a 26 to 1 dog to win 3 sets in a row.
so for cj to have such a great bet at 20 to 1 he has to be less than a 2 to 1 dog to win each set. meaning he believes he will win significantly over 33% of the time in each set.
he doesnt seem to understand vegas book making or simple math. but that doesnt make him a bad guy, or a bad pool player.
but foolish to join jb in this one sided fight to defend the players that arent bothering to defend themselves.
but as far as cj beating the best player three sets in a row the odds are 7 to 1 if they are dead equal.
if cj is a 2 to 1 dog in each set then cj is a 26 to 1 dog to win 3 sets in a row.
so for cj to have such a great bet at 20 to 1 he has to be less than a 2 to 1 dog to win each set. meaning he believes he will win significantly over 33% of the time in each set.
he doesnt seem to understand vegas book making or simple math. but that doesnt make him a bad guy, or a bad pool player.
but foolish to join jb in this one sided fight to defend the players that arent bothering to defend themselves.
I believe Buddy Hall deserves to be respected and not slandered behind his back.
If you think I'm 2/1 dog against anyone in a race to 7 .....well, I want to gamble with you sir.
Everyone knows that none of these players are on this forum to defend themselves.
I believe Buddy Hall deserves to be respected and not slandered behind his back. No one came forward in 1991 or 1992 to accuse him of anything, so why now? In this country we have the right to face the accuser, and after 23 years it's just maliciousness, not "justice". I really don't know what happened that day at the Mirage in Las Vegas..... no one else knows for sure either. Maybe Buddy was threatened by the ones that made that stupid line in the first place, maybe he just didn't want to win, maybe he didn't feel well that day, maybe it was the pressure.....who knows?
Are all these "people" trying to save the Casinos from Buddy Hall all of a sudden? After 1991 Casinos and ESPN put in over $3,000,000 to support Pro Pool......this went on many, many years.....where are they at now? I will assure you it has nothing to do with Buddy or Mike why Casinos only ended up funding the 'Challenge of Champions' through the 2000-2012 time period.
If you think I'm 2/1 dog against anyone in a race to 7 .....well, I want to gamble with you sir.
Everyone knows that none of these players are on this forum to defend themselves.
I believe Buddy Hall deserves to be respected and not slandered behind his back. No one came forward in 1991 or 1992 to accuse him of anything, so why now? In this country we have the right to face the accuser, and after 23 years it's just maliciousness, not "justice". I really don't know what happened that day at the Mirage in Las Vegas..... no one else knows for sure either. Maybe Buddy was threatened by the ones that made that stupid line in the first place, maybe he just didn't want to win, maybe he didn't feel well that day, maybe it was the pressure.....who knows?
Are all these "people" trying to save the Casinos from Buddy Hall all of a sudden? After 1991 Casinos and ESPN put in over $3,000,000 to support Pro Pool......this went on many, many years.....where are they at now? I will assure you it has nothing to do with Buddy or Mike why Casinos only ended up funding the 'Challenge of Champions' through the 2000-2012 time period.
I'm waiting for AtLarge to give us the final verdict.
I'm waiting for AtLarge to give us the final verdict.....I'm wondering if he'll count the LA OPEN where Earl and I played on ESPN as one of the tournaments.......hmmmm
I'm waiting for AtLarge to give us the final verdict.....I'm wondering if he'll count the LA OPEN where Earl and I played on ESPN as one of the tournaments.......hmmmm
Would you like to gamble SVB winner breaks 9-ball or 10-ball in modern standard professional rules in races to 7 getting 2/1 on the money on a neutral 9-foot diamond for $5,000+ on your end in each set?
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
It has been used as a figure of speech, in various phrasings, to indicate that a person's overly frequent or vehement attempts to convince others of something have ironically helped to convince others that the opposite is true, by making the person look insincere and defensive.
Considering just about everyone has said their piece and moved on, the only ones left are just here to egg you on for another post. Well Played CJ.
Even JB knows when to stop posting. Sometimes.
And of course everyone has the right to face their accuser.
Call Buddy and tell him whats current at AZB. It would be interesting to see if he is as interested as yourself on clearing his name.
I would bet that if Buddy posted his account of how he was feeling that day, what was going thru his mind, how things went down, it might make a world of difference and may even turn a few opinions around.
Somehow I doubt that he cares even close to the amount that you seem to care CJ.
Somehow thru the grapevine it does appear that you know what went down that day and you're trying just a tad too hard to convince otherwise.
Oh well, thats probably why you play pool and are not a lawyer.
It has been used as a figure of speech, in various phrasings, to indicate that a person's overly frequent or vehement attempts to convince others of something have ironically helped to convince others that the opposite is true, by making the person look insincere and defensive.
Considering just about everyone has said their piece and moved on, the only ones left are just here to egg you on for another post. Well Played CJ.
Even JB knows when to stop posting. Sometimes.
And of course everyone has the right to face their accuser.
Call Buddy and tell him whats current at AZB. It would be interesting to see if he is as interested as yourself on clearing his name.
I would bet that if Buddy posted his account of how he was feeling that day, what was going thru his mind, how things went down, it might make a world of difference and may even turn a few opinions around.
Somehow I doubt that he cares even close to the amount that you seem to care CJ.
Somehow thru the grapevine it does appear that you know what went down that day and you're trying just a tad too hard to convince otherwise.
Oh well, thats probably why you play pool and are not a lawyer.
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We can play at Buffalo Billiards in New Orleans.
Absolutely.....we can play 9-Ball at Buffalo Billiards in New Orleans.
Neutral Racker is Required
Absolutely.....we can play 9-Ball at Buffalo Billiards in New Orleans.
Neutral Racker is Required