China World=Poor Format

Bob Jewett said:
Double elimination was invented by sadists to torture sheep and fools. It is too bad that it caught on the US.

If you are doing an event for TV, the last thing you want is a bunch of pointless matches (like the first round in the losers' bracket) that you have to administer and referee. Nor do you want a bunch of never-rans clogging up the tables with unwatchable play.

In the US most tournaments are gamble-fests where many of the players are calculating their odds of making expenses and figuring out who to match up with. The payout is funded primarily by the never-rans and backers. See also: calcutta.

The China World seems to be a fine format that is good for both the players and the organizer. I would agree about the 9ball/10ball issue though.
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Good post. Full of rational logic.
Thanks.
Will Prout
 
They all play on the same table with the same set of rules. Champions just play and wannabes make excuses.
 
No Chance???

King T said:
No body wants to see the American players anyway, they cant play!!! SVB is the only guy that has any chance at the money anyway. There are some good young guys coming up, Skylar, Little D, Klatt, Morra, Bergman, Stuff, and a number of others..., but the China open is about champions and America only has one SVB.

P.S. there are few big money events in the states.
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I think it's wrong to say ...no Chance

Past China Open Champs...
2013 Lee Van Corteza....This year at Derby City he finished 8th, 9th, 15th, and 30th. Earl finished ahead of him. Robb Saez, OscarD, Rodney, and Corey all tied with him in 10 Ball challenge. In 9ball...Dechaine, JA, Putnam, Wilkie, Bergeman, Nevel and 6 others finished higher. In 2013, Rodney M beat Wu, LeeVan and Orcollo in US Open 10ball.

2012 Dennis Orcollo...See above 2013 US 10ball. See above for DCC 9ball. Orcollo and SVB are in rare air with anyone in world right now. But, he can be beat by an American (outside of SVB) in a short race.

2011 Chris Melling..in Euro mostly, but 5th finish tied with Oscar D at 2013 US Open. Also, 2013... US Open 8ball 25th, US Open 10ball 33rd. He always plays well in Asia. Even in 2011, when he won China Open he finished 33rd in US Open 9ball.

I would agree that outside of SVB, we do not have anyone in the top 10 (maybe even 20) in the world. But we have a slew of players that have the "Chance" to win a short race against anyone in the world. Again, this has more to do with our players being able to win with the pressure of no second chances and short races. We've been lulled into believing that gambling requires playing under pressure. But, gambling uses long races where the pressure is not on on any one specific shot or game. There is time to get into stroke. The best player that day always wins.

Daren
 
Swighey said:
:thumbup: He likes winner breaks because of his break.
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that was the point i raised (above your post). shane has one of the best breaks. i mean, if you're on a hill-hill match with shane and he breaks on the last rack, then you're most likely to lose that match. but he only scored 3 against biado when he had 7 breaks on the entire match. wonder what happened...
 
Yep, Southerndraw I agree, and that's why tournaments have shorter races. If the casual fan knew who was going to win every game before the tournament started then there would be two men and a dog in the audience. In the long run though the better players generally win more tournaments and/or win more money by placing well.
 
Jaden said:
Also, don't say that Shane doesn't have the same level of competition there as here because most of the same players that lose in tournaments that Shane dominates here are the same ones in those other tournaments who often times win them.

Jaden
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Don't know what you are smoking but you should check your facts.

Swighey said:
:thumbup: He likes winner breaks because of his break. Winner breaks is fine in bars and in long races for cash. I just don't get why any serious pool player would prefer (from a pool point of view not a personal advantage one) this format in a tournament. Winner serves in tennis? Winner of a hand gets the button heads up in poker? Fastest chess player gets an extra move? SVB gets the break because he has the best break? Bollox!
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+++++1

nobcitypool said:
They all play on the same table with the same set of rules. Champions just play and wannabes make excuses.
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++++1.
It is high time that pool authorities introduce something like ELO rating in chess that measures relative skills of players and leave little doubt on who are better players http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_rating_system#Elo_rating_system
If they have such a rating system, Shane would probably be only one with rating of 2600+ in USA and there will be many others outside USA with rating of 2600+
As a number of posters have said, Shane is like god in USA but in whole world he is just one of many gods.

arps said:
that was the point i raised (above your post). shane has one of the best breaks. i mean, if you're on a hill-hill match with shane and he breaks on the last rack, then you're most likely to lose that match. but he only scored 3 against biado when he had 7 breaks on the entire match. wonder what happened...
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Agree. Maybe this tourney uses different table with smaller pockets that he is not familiar with (unlike the TAR tables) and does not have rack your own. If Shane , one of best breakers in game cannot consistently hold serve he does not have much chance. Maybe Shane has to really go to study in depth the tables used in international tourneys and adapt his break to just hold serve in those tourneys.
:grin:
 
Johnnyt said:
Yes, very good and very generous if you're from Asia. Coming from the U.S.A, not so great. To be 2k+ down before you start and if you go undefeated to get in the knockout round and lose once in it, you get to go home. Still good for players that get sponsored from their gov or privately, but W/O that it's not worth the trip on your own dime. Johnnyt
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Lots of different nations attended.
 
I know everyone is playing under the same conditions, but knowing a few bad rolls could get me knocked out of a tournament might prevent me from flying 3000 miles, especially if its my own money I'm putting up.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Double elimination was invented by sadists to torture sheep and fools. It is too bad that it caught on the US.

If you are doing an event for TV, the last thing you want is a bunch of pointless matches (like the first round in the losers' bracket) that you have to administer and referee. Nor do you want a bunch of never-rans clogging up the tables with unwatchable play.

In the US most tournaments are gamble-fests where many of the players are calculating their odds of making expenses and figuring out who to match up with. The payout is funded primarily by the never-rans and backers. See also: calcutta.

The China World seems to be a fine format that is good for both the players and the organizer. I would agree about the 9ball/10ball issue though.
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I disagree with you so hard. Anyone can get there in a tournament set. Upsets happen all the time. Double elimination is the best format. Not to mention, to win from the loser side is so tough.
 
Johnnyt said:
and most are sponsored bye their gov or a product. Johnnyt
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The government money is huge. To actually draw a salary without having to win anything takes a Ton of pressure off. I saw a list recently about obscure sports salaries. It said Appleton makes $135 K a year salary. Was that from his government? And we do know that Netherlands does back Niels.

Can all the American bashers at least recognize that a government sponsored salary is a factor in a players performance? And lack thereof can also be a factor.
 
Cardigan Kid said:
The government money is huge. To actually draw a salary without having to win anything takes a Ton of pressure off. I saw a list recently about obscure sports salaries. It said Appleton makes $135 K a year salary. Was that from his government? And we do know that Netherlands does back Niels.

Can all the American bashers at least recognize that a government sponsored salary is a factor in a players performance? And lack thereof can also be a factor.
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I believe you are referring to the following article.

http://www.totalprosports.com/2011/10/14/13-top-salaries-from-obscure-pro-sports/

In this article, it states that Appleton made $118,494 in 2010. This happens to be the amount earned (won) in 2010 as reported on the AZ-Billiards money leaderboard.

No government is paying Daz a $135k stipend.
 
Johnnyt said:
If I was a top 20 American player I wouldn't spend 2k or more of my own money to travel to the other side of the world to play NINE-BALL. Add the MR, Alt break, single knock-out joke, and you have too much luck involved.

10 ball with only the top 32 players, double elim and winner break. This way no one gets a bye playing 1 or 2 dead money guys or gals...they all play monsters. Johnnyt
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Maybe I'm wrong, but given the state of professional pool in America, it seems kind of silly to knock a tournament that is adding $195K to a 64 man field.

I would doubt that any American player in the top 20 would choose to not play in this event if invited or qualified.
 
Johnnyt said:
For a few years ban anyone that is not a U.S citizen. Nobody but a small group of pool nuts watch pool anyway and even a smaller group of nuts pay to watch it. Keep ALL the tournament purses in the U.S for now while the players and promoters get it together with a organization. If they can't get it together in a year or two, let the floodgates of 100% sponsored players from other countries back in and stick a fork in 95% of the U.S. players. Johnnyt
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What a terrible approach to improving an industry; let's improve the product by eliminating competition!
 
Is this another thread of"SHANE DIDN'T WIN THE TOURNAMENT SO IT MUST THE BAD FORMAT?i think this is one other reason why USA cannot produce another player like shane.they always think about money.it is always the prize money.do you think jeff ignacio really thought he has a chance to compete with those high caliber players?maybe?but he took that chance and made it to the finals.he didn't think to make money but oppurtunity instead.this what American should do.if shane retires,i am afraid USA might not be represented anymore in any tournaments.
 
BJTyler said:
Maybe I'm wrong, but given the state of professional pool in America, it seems kind of silly to knock a tournament that is adding $195K to a 64 man field.

I would doubt that any American player in the top 20 would choose to not play in this event if invited or qualified.
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You'd be wrong. I don't think I can remember the U.S. sending ten players ever
to a major, outside the U.S. If I am wrong about this please someone feel free
to correct me, but I doubt it.
 
jaycast16 said:
Is this another thread of"SHANE DIDN'T WIN THE TOURNAMENT SO IT MUST THE BAD FORMAT?i think this is one other reason why USA cannot produce another player like shane.they always think about money.it is always the prize money.do you think jeff ignacio really thought he has a chance to compete with those high caliber players?maybe?but he took that chance and made it to the finals.he didn't think to make money but oppurtunity instead.this what American should do.if shane retires,i am afraid USA might not be represented anymore in any tournaments.
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Of coarse he thought he could compete, he plays Efren even for big money at home. He is considered a top tier player in the Philippines.
Of coarse he thought he could make money, he went on his own dime to China to play in a qualifier.
 
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