conflicting advice on 2nd ball break
- Thread starter berlowmj
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vagabond said:
This generally only happens when the back row of balls are not frozen in a one pocket break...IMO
I agree with Snapshot9 on breaking 8 ball on each side...Snapshot9 said:
But, I would break from the head ball on a slow table with older cloth because, I believe you have to hit the balls so hard with the side break to get them to move that I have a chance that the Q Ball will fly off the table.
On newer cloth. I would use the side break because the balls move better and separate better on newer cloth.
I would also use outside english like BlackJack in order to bring the Q ball back to the middle of the table. JMO..
When I play 8ball, I prefer to just hit the headball. But depending on how the table is breaking, i'll sometimes goto the second ball break.
When i do goto the second ball break, I use probably a half tip of low outside english.
Now when I break hitting the headball, I just use my regular 9ball break, either going from the edge of the BOx, or about 2 or 3 inches off the D. I tend to get the best Qball control when breaking from there.
When i do goto the second ball break, I use probably a half tip of low outside english.
Now when I break hitting the headball, I just use my regular 9ball break, either going from the edge of the BOx, or about 2 or 3 inches off the D. I tend to get the best Qball control when breaking from there.
My specialty is cutting through the bullshit. To test which break is best, I hit 200 breaks on the same table (GC3), 100 head ball breaks and 100 second ball breaks (alternating 25 each), and wrote down how many balls were made in what pockets and how many balls ended up in what parts of the table. The difference in balls made on the break and how far the balls spread was minimal. The most interesting fact was that I only made a ball on the break about 1 out of three times either way and never made an 8 ball either way.
So, frankly, I don't think the second ball break is worth the added complications, but if you feel you have to do it, hit it center ball. Low is OK, but sidespin of any kind is just asking for trouble in exchange for a mythical reward.
And whoever told you to split two balls on the break hates his money.
pj
chgo
Patrick Johnson said:
Have you watched or read racking secrets? I would advise checking this out.
Anyway, I know several guys that can put the 8 on the break very easily if my rack isn't the way it should be. In fact the only time I have seen the 8 go in the side is if somebody doesn't give a great rack!
Anyway, PJ in order to have adequate proof everyone should do that test for themselves. I can personally tell you that I get a better spread at 8 ball breaking into the head ball, doesn't matter straight up, left, or right.
Most people have their preferences, and that is fine. I have even seen one guy that makes more 8 on the break than anyone I have seen, and he personally hits between the 2nd and 3 ball, or tries for the 3rd ball full on.
So I guess to each their own, and you have to work on it and practice it to get any type of results. I personally can vouch for the 2nd ball break, but if I didn't sink the 8 the balls would all sit on the opposite rail that I broke from. I liked the spread I got better from the straight up break, and that is what I use most now.
This Technique works for me on Bar Tables ...
RiverCity said:
Patrick Johnson said:
Great if you stay on the same table all the time..
Actually, use whatever break desire; The big difference is which ever one you feel most confident in and how the table you are playing on is reacting to the break. Making the eight ball on the break shouldn't be the main deciding factor in which break you use. It should be which ever one gives you the best results. If you make the eight on the break, (and I have made them on both styles mentioned, just more on the side break), it should be considered a bonus and not a factor of which style you choose.
JMO
Johnnyt said:
I don't think that's true. When you are hitting on the head ball, the second line will absorb the hit, and will transfer a lesser impact to the thirth line (balls) and to the fourth line (balls). When you are hitting the 2nd ball, you are transfering the energy to the center (8-ball). The amount of the absorbing of the balls will be lesser because it don't have to transfer the impact to the fourth line. The impact will be bigger. The second thing is, the energy is in the center ball, which will push the balls away on different directions, which will spread the balls better. Hitting the headball will just push the balls downwards en some sideways.
All I'll say is, if you do the 2nd-ball break right - connecting at the right angle, right stroke, etc. - it works.
Months and months ago, I was warming up for a bar-box tournament. I was breaking from the side, into the 2nd row. In four consecutive breaks, I sank the 8-ball three times. If I recall correctly, twice in the left side and once in the far left corner, while breaking from the right side.
I was just in stroke that day for breaking, I guess - as I haven't been able to come near duplicating that event.
Months and months ago, I was warming up for a bar-box tournament. I was breaking from the side, into the 2nd row. In four consecutive breaks, I sank the 8-ball three times. If I recall correctly, twice in the left side and once in the far left corner, while breaking from the right side.
I was just in stroke that day for breaking, I guess - as I haven't been able to come near duplicating that event.
I did it in a pool hall with 45 tables (Gandys and several kinds of GCs), so I could have used a great variety of tables - but then we'd be comparing tables, not breaks. Doing it on one table was purposeful.
pj
chgo
the best way to consistently make a ball every single break is 2nd ball break. A full hit on the 2nd ball gives repeatable break patterns (typically a group of balls towards the same foot pocket side you are breaking from).
Johnnyt said:
Patrick Johnson said:
I still stand by original statement of using the break that you are most confident using. If it isn't working on that table, change postions. You will find the "spot/speed" that will work for you. Confidence in a method will supersede the best test results of that method, especially if you cannot duplicate them.
JMO
Break Choice...
Where I break from depends on the rack.Some players will "tilt" rack you if they notice or know you side break. I simply move to the other side after they put the rack together. This makes the second ball even bigger! A pause at the back of the last stroke seems to help more than anything,no matter where I break from.
A search here or on youtube for Colin Colenso's Break is very interesting!
Ray
Where I break from depends on the rack.Some players will "tilt" rack you if they notice or know you side break. I simply move to the other side after they put the rack together. This makes the second ball even bigger! A pause at the back of the last stroke seems to help more than anything,no matter where I break from.
A search here or on youtube for Colin Colenso's Break is very interesting!
Ray
Thank you very much. I had a feeling that this person's suggestion was either ignorant or malicious. Thanks for the confirmation. Your consensus gives me renewed confidence in my reliance upon Charley Bond's Great Break Shot book. The edition I bought at Derby City was a real bargain, because the volume included Joe Tuckers Racking Secrets inserted as Chapter 6.
I must develop sufficient confidence to ignore strangers. If I see him again, I will challenge him & endeavor to annihilate him for attempting to subvert my learning curve.
As always, I appreciate your patience & generousity!!!
I must develop sufficient confidence to ignore strangers. If I see him again, I will challenge him & endeavor to annihilate him for attempting to subvert my learning curve.
As always, I appreciate your patience & generousity!!!
WesleyW said:
The problem is you can't hit the balls as hard with a 2nd ball break or more than likely the cueball will go flying. The ONLY times I use a 2nd ball break on a bar table is if there is an 8ball break pot or on a bad rack where I can see more of the 2nd ball and hit it full from the gap side.
You will consistenly run more racks hitting the head ball full. If you're going to do the 2nd ball break, which I've done alot, I like blackjacks approach although on most bar tables the cue ball doesn't make it back to the center. It will stop the cue ball from falling into the pack or on the bottom rail though. Also, the break depends highly on your equipment. If you're playing with a mud cue ball(extremly heavy and doesn't take spin as well) you can hit the 2nd ball harder without fear of it flying off the table.