Confused about the definition of "skid"

[Shaft]

Recent posts about Johnny Archer "blaming a table for skid" made me question my understanding of what "skid" is.

I thought "skid" describes the OB deviating from the intended track to the pocket because of throw or cling with the CB. I thought it is called "skid" because, just after impact, the OB often starts its movement by sliding or skidding before it picks up angular rotation.

Am I right, or is skid describing something else?

 

[Jason Robichaud]

I think it is the OB sliding rather than rotating after contact.

 

[brechbt]

At contact, if the object ball immediately begins moving on a line perpendicular to the tangent line (i.e., what you want to happen), I believe there's no skid, regardless of whether the OB is rotating or not. "Skid" in this context refers to the OB moving in the direction the CB is moving for a split second before separating from the CB and moving perpendicular to the tangent line.

Dr. Dave could explain this better, but I imagine that there is always a small amount of skid, because the contact between CB and OB takes a certain amount of time to occur, and while they're in contact they are moving as one object in the direction of CB travel. We use the term "skid" when that contact period appears noticeably longer than usual and the OB obviously deviates from its intended path.

 

[3andstop]

Here's what I believe is at least one cause of skid. First we all pretty much know that when you apply left english to the CB it applies right english to the OB, and right to the CB puts left to the OB.

Also, draw on the CB puts overspin on the OB.

Follow on the CB puts backspin on the OB. The force of a firm follow shot sets the OB in forward motion while it spins backward for a bit.

Ok, now for what I think happens sometimes with skid. A slow roll of the CB (at certain angles) has the CB hitting the OB with a forward roll enough to induce a touch of draw to the OB, but the angle and slow forward motion of the CB isn't hard enough to force the OB forward more than it pulls it backward from the draw effect. So, for a split second they sort of cling together like two gears until the forward momentum overcomes the reverse english on the OB. I believe friction of dirt and different cloth conditions also can enhance this. :scratchhead:

 

[vasilios]

Here's what I believe is at least one cause of skid. First we all pretty much know that when you apply left english to the CB it applies right english to the OB, and right to the CB puts left to the OB.

Also, draw on the CB puts overspin on the OB.

Follow on the CB puts backspin on the OB. The force of a firm follow shot sets the OB in forward motion while it spins backward for a bit.

Ok, now for what I think happens sometimes with skid. A slow roll of the CB (at certain angles) has the CB hitting the OB with a forward roll enough to induce a touch of draw to the OB, but the angle and slow forward motion of the CB isn't hard enough to force the OB forward more than it pulls it backward from the draw effect. So, for a split second they sort of cling together like two gears until the forward momentum overcomes the reverse english on the OB. I believe friction of dirt and different cloth conditions also can enhance this. :scratchhead:

you got it,very good explanation.
bill

 

[enzo]

on a cut shot, you will see the ob twirl in a very odd manner and it will almost always be undercut because during a skid there is an increased amount of friction relative to the "status quo"

there are also skids on straight in shots.... when the cb is rolling, usually fairly slow, sometimes youll see the cb jump in the air a tad. the shot wont necessarily be missed like on a cut shot, but the cb will probably stop far short of where is should have, causing a positional error.

those are the 2 types i see, and i normally hear them being called skids. both types normally happen at slower speeds too it seems (to me).... and this is interesting in itself.

 

[Druid]

Funny, I was just watching this video about Skid yesterday.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-86.htm

What Dr. Dave called "Cut-induced throw (CIT)" is what I was considering "Skid".

 

[Jal]

Recent posts about Johnny Archer "blaming a table for skid" made me question my understanding of what "skid" is.

I thought "skid" describes the OB deviating from the intended track to the pocket because of throw or cling with the CB.

Of course you'd have to ask Johnny Archer what he means by "skid," but the definition I've seen most often used is that it's an abnormally large amount of throw, likely due to chalk at the contact area.

I thought it is called "skid" because, just after impact, the OB often starts its movement by sliding or skidding before it picks up angular rotation.

It always does that; there's nothing unusual about it.

Skid has been attributed to cloth conditions because (it seems) that under certain circumstances, chalk doesn't get rubbed off the surface of the balls as readily. Or, the cloth actually promotes chalk adhering to the surface (static electricity?, chemical residues?). These are plausible explanations, imo, but I can't vouch for them.

Jim

 

[Bob Jewett]

The phenomenon is variously called skid, cling, kick (at snooker in the UK) and bad contact. Here are some articles by George Onoda from Billiards Digest. Page 13 of this PDF has an article by him that even estimates how frequently skid/cling/kick/bad contact should occur for reasonable assumptions.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/onoda_all_txt.pdf

Skid can also occur for a straight follow shot when the cue ball can be seen to jump off the table for a fairly slow rolling follow shot. The jump is accompanied by a sharp sound and the cue ball loses a lot of its follow.

Some players don't believe that skid exists and is just an excuse for missing. I think such players lack either experience or eyesight.

 

[GetMeThere]

http://www.sfbilliards.com/onoda_all_txt.pdf

Nice articles. Unfortunately, when I try to save to a file (as PDF) it insists the file has an error. I tried twice.

 

[mikeyfrost]

Makes a clunky noise when the balls hit and doesnt really roll at first more just slides for a second....u will miss when it happens. Seems to happen to me on cut shots more often but I got no science to back that up. You just know when it happens and its an angry feeling.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

The phenomenon is variously called skid, cling, kick (at snooker in the UK) and bad contact. Here are some articles by George Onoda from Billiards Digest. Page 13 of this PDF has an article by him that even estimates how frequently skid/cling/kick/bad contact should occur for reasonable assumptions.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/onoda_all_txt.pdf

Skid can also occur for a straight follow shot when the cue ball can be seen to jump off the table for a fairly slow rolling follow shot. The jump is accompanied by a sharp sound and the cue ball loses a lot of its follow.

Some players don't believe that skid exists and is just an excuse for missing. I think such players lack either experience or eyesight.

I had balls kick (clink) and others skid. I always referred to a kick when the CB or OB hops a little at contact, not a big jump, might be just enough to put a piece of paper under them. This kick didn't cause the OB to skid though, it pushes the OB off line. Skids, I see as different hits because the OB always move forward without rolling. I have seen kicks and skids at the same time, but not every time, unless the kick was too small to notice.

 

[dr_dave]

Recent posts about Johnny Archer "blaming a table for skid" made me question my understanding of what "skid" is.

I thought "skid" describes the OB deviating from the intended track to the pocket because of throw or cling with the CB. I thought it is called "skid" because, just after impact, the OB often starts its movement by sliding or skidding before it picks up angular rotation.

Am I right, or is skid describing something else?

Based on the generally accepted uses of the terms,

skid = kick = cling = excessive throw

For more information and video demonstrations of examples, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#cling​

Regards,
Dave

 

[alstl]

The phenomenon is variously called skid, cling, kick (at snooker in the UK) and bad contact. Here are some articles by George Onoda from Billiards Digest. Page 13 of this PDF has an article by him that even estimates how frequently skid/cling/kick/bad contact should occur for reasonable assumptions.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/onoda_all_txt.pdf

Skid can also occur for a straight follow shot when the cue ball can be seen to jump off the table for a fairly slow rolling follow shot. The jump is accompanied by a sharp sound and the cue ball loses a lot of its follow.

Some players don't believe that skid exists and is just an excuse for missing. I think such players lack either experience or eyesight.

How can you tell the difference between skid and throw? I always thought skid was when the ball didn't start rolling upon impact.

 

[randyg]

IMO anytime the object ball gets hit it will skid before rotating.

Skid is just a reaction to friction. Skid is CIT at it's best/worst.

I don't think that draw on the cue ball will put any negotiable "over-spin" on the object ball and the same for top spin.

SAME AIM=randyg

 

[dr_dave]

How can you tell the difference between skid and throw? I always thought skid was when the ball didn't start rolling upon impact.

The word "skid" is used by many the same way "kick" or "cling" or "excessive throw" are used.

With a rolling CB, cling can cause the OB to hop and skid (slide more before rolling) and the CB doesn't follow as much Here's a good video demo of these effects:

HSV B.46 - CB and OB hop and spin transfer during follow shots​

But, again, "skid" is often used to indicate "cling" on any type of shot. For more info, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#cling​

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I don't think that draw on the cue ball will put any negotiable "over-spin" on the object ball and the same for top spin.

You probably meant "noticeable" instead of "negotiable," but I like "negotiable." :grin:

Regardless, I agree that the amount of transferred spin is usually quite small. However, with "cling" the transferred spin can certainly be noticeable. More info, and video demos, can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#cling​

"Overspin" is certainly not possible via spin transfer; although, draw will transfer a small amount of topspin to the OB, and follow will transfer a small amount of backspin to the OB (making it "skid" longer). People often misuse the term "overspin." For more info, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/follow.html#roll​

There are some shots where transferred spin (CIS:cut-induced spin or SIS:spin-induced spin) can have a significant and important effect. For more info and examples, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#spin​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Cornerman]

I thought it is called "skid" because, just after impact, the OB often starts its movement by sliding or skidding before it picks up angular rotation.

Am I right, or is skid describing something else?

No, you're not correct. Or, you're correct that "skid" describe something else.

Go to Dr Dave's site and look up the term skid.

Fred