Contact Point Aiming Illusion

M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Contact point aiming is probably one of the most common aiming techniques out there. I believe Jim Rempe, among others stated he just aims at the contact point. It's easy to figure out. You stand behind the object ball and sight a line to the intended pocket.

The problem is that if you use this system for shots over 10 degrees, you start to under cut the ball. You will hit the shot too full and must compensate to send the cue ball to the right place. Then why do users aim at the contact point if they will miss the shot? And are they really aiming at the contact pint?

Best,
Mike
 
Since the balls are round, you can't expect to aim directly at the contact point. However, your right arm will figure out what part of the cueball needs to hit the correct contact point. It's not that hard.
 
Mitchxout said:
Since the balls are round, you can't expect to aim directly at the contact point. However, your right arm will figure out what part of the cueball needs to hit the correct contact point. It's not that hard.
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Same for me. Maybe "aiming" at the contact point is a little misleading. I am looking at the contact point but use feel to determine the line to send the cue ball on. But I still look at the contact point rather than the center of the ghost ball or some other reference.
 
Mikjary said:
Contact point aiming is probably one of the most common aiming techniques out there. I believe Jim Rempe, among others stated he just aims at the contact point. It's easy to figure out. You stand behind the object ball and sight a line to the intended pocket.

The problem is that if you use this system for shots over 10 degrees, you start to under cut the ball. You will hit the shot too full and must compensate to send the cue ball to the right place. Then why do users aim at the contact point if they will miss the shot? And are they really aiming at the contact pint?

Best,
Mike
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When you use this method is there only the contact point on the object ball? When I learned contact point aiming it was taught to me as lining up the contact points of the cue ball and object ball. (e.g. This part of the cue ball will hit this part of the object ball) Humbly, I would say that if one is unable to pocket a ball with a cut greater than 10 degrees, they are not using the system correctly.

People see things differently. I am curious how you came up with 10 degrees as the limit of accuracy as opposed to 8 or 13 degrees. Will you share your calculation?

Thanks
 
Vision and perception are too complicated and personal to simplify into a "formula" that works for all people. The focus should be on results. Each person should find the head position and sighting technique that helps them create the most accurate cue tip contact point and aiming line.
 
Mikjary said:
Contact point aiming is probably one of the most common aiming techniques out there. I believe Jim Rempe, among others stated he just aims at the contact point. It's easy to figure out. You stand behind the object ball and sight a line to the intended pocket.

The problem is that if you use this system for shots over 10 degrees, you start to under cut the ball. You will hit the shot too full and must compensate to send the cue ball to the right place. Then why do users aim at the contact point if they will miss the shot? And are they really aiming at the contact pint?

Best,
Mike
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Hello Mike,

I m not really sure if I understood you correctly. Are you perhaps describing this here?:
Aiming at your contact point of object-ball you found and then finally just aiming with center cueball at this *detected* point?
Well if that would be the case, you would have had a very bad instructor/mentor/friend who has shown you this that way.

If you re talking about another situation or if I misinterpreted your question/posting, try to explain me 

Lg
Ingo
 
Well speaking for myself, I aim by using contact points, it is easy enough to observe if you saw me play, because I will at times line up behind the OB facing the pocket to ID that spot on the ball that I need to hit. Mostly this will be seen for a tricky shot that I don't have a good feeling for, or I need to do something special with the CB.

As far as undercutting balls for shots over 10 degrees, I have not noticed that. When I do miss, I am not convinced that it is caused by my aiming system exclusively. There are other factors involved, like adjustments for spin, that I rely totally on feel to adjust for, that at times may not be correct. I have not charted undercuts vs overcuts, so I cannot speak to that issue, thinking back for myself, I believe it really depends upon the shot and the situation.

After all I am only human.



Mikjary said:
Contact point aiming is probably one of the most common aiming techniques out there. I believe Jim Rempe, among others stated he just aims at the contact point. It's easy to figure out. You stand behind the object ball and sight a line to the intended pocket.

The problem is that if you use this system for shots over 10 degrees, you start to under cut the ball. You will hit the shot too full and must compensate to send the cue ball to the right place. Then why do users aim at the contact point if they will miss the shot? And are they really aiming at the contact pint?

Best,
Mike
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Patrick Johnson said:
"Aiming at" doesn't necessarily mean "pointing the CB center at". It means "trying to hit with the cue ball".

pj
chgo
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I agree with this. Pros such as Jim Rempe tend to "gloss over" things when explaining concepts, and many times when they say "aim at ..." they mean with the cue ball, not the shaft of the cue. To them, the cue ball is an extension of the pool cue itself. They tend to gloss over what happens behind the cue ball, because "that is the realm of fundamentals, which, for the purpose of our discussion, is assumed to already be in place."

-Sean
 
I look at the contact point and aim at it. I estimated 10 degrees as a ballpark for undercutting the shot. As pointed out by several posters, we don't really hit the contact point.

We can use parallel contact points on the cue ball and object ball to offset for a thinner hit, the shaft, etc. But, I have always aimed at the contact point. Understanding the physical problem with this made me take a closer look at it.

I got down on a shot and aimed at the contact point. I got back up, got behind my cue and sighted where my cue was aiming. It wasn't aiming at the contact point. I knew that! Obviously I was compensating for an inaccurate alignment.

My subconscious was taking my visual picture and using part of it to align the shot correctly. But, what part and why didn't I feel the difference when I lined up the shot? What alignment was my mind using? Was it using a current aiming system or something else?

Best,
Mike
 
It's both and--Sean is correct. I tell people to look down center ball at the contact point and on most cut shots up to thin cuts, they will get there using the whole cue ball as aim or the cue stick as the aim as long as they switch ASAP from sighting the center ball (too thick) line to sighting on the object ball instead. For other shots, the old timers' saying is, use the edge of the cue ball when instead when shooting thin cuts.

You are bringing two contact points together on the object ball and cue ball for true geometric aim. Contact-induced throw and other factors come into play. As the thread says, a contact point illusion (between center ball and contact point on the object ball) roll together to score most balls.
 
Duckie, what you say is correct but you can't play pool that way. Look at the contact point and let your arm find the way.
 
The contact point and the point of aim are not the same unless the shot is straight in.
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Yes.

If you are looking at the contact point, your eyes will not be looking where the CB needs to go.
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No. You meant to say where the point opposite cue ball center needs to go, what I call the "nose" of the cue ball on a center ball stroke. Patrick said it correctly:

"Aiming at" doesn't necessarily mean "pointing the CB center at". It means "trying to hit with the cue ball".
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And...

Thinking in terms of Ghost Ball contact patch gets away from this.
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Not for players who are poor at "seeing" the ghost ball and the ghost ball center (many, many players).

Ghost ball, contact point/back of ball, whatever, many good players are looking at the point of contact on the object ball for much of the practice and final strokes... neither you or I, Duckie, should tell everyone to use ghost ball aim, because contact point aim works superbly for many top players.
 
Contact point can be kind of misleading when your teaching..

Contact point can be misleading when trying to teach someone how to aim. I almost avoid using the term when teaching aiming and definitely don't tell the players to just hit the contact point.

When the ghost ball is placed in position on the object ball and only then is there a real clear picture as to where the contact point actually is.

If the moon was going to hit the earth could anyone just eyeball it and say that crater is going to hit New York. I don't think so.

The contact point exists but for actually aiming the eyes are actually gaging the amount of one hitting the other one.

This is just my opinion but it is a very eduacated one.

A person might be thinking they are seeing this only to understand with a little help how their eyes are actually seeing.

It can be an eye opener to see what is really going on with these eyes.
 
Here's a question for the players that aim by looking at the contact point. How is your mind compensating for the ball curvature? Since you will undercut the ball after so many degrees, how is your mind actually compensating? Is it using fractional aiming without you knowing it? How about ghost ball aiming?

If ever there was a head scratcher about the mental part of pool, this is it. Your mind doesn't just guess and cut the ball thinner. It's a biological computer that takes in visual information and figures out which direction you need to send the cue ball. All without you even being aware it's doing this. What system is it using?

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Here's a question for the players that aim by looking at the contact point. How is your mind compensating for the ball curvature? Since you will undercut the ball after so many degrees, how is your mind actually compensating? Is it using fractional aiming without you knowing it? How about ghost ball aiming?

If ever there was a head scratcher about the mental part of pool, this is it. Your mind doesn't just guess and cut the ball thinner. It's a biological computer that takes in visual information and figures out which direction you need to send the cue ball. All without you even being aware it's doing this. What system is it using?

Best,
Mike
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Simple. Your mind does it when you think correctly and practice it consciously for a while. What you are actually doing is finding the contact point on the ob, and then you have the exact same spot but opposite side on the cb. This does not allow for CIT though. It's an equal/opposite aiming method that Jimmy Reid used to teach.

In the old days, of having a dwarf softball for a cb, it didn't work. But, your mind could quickly adjust. For years, that's how I aimed. I just found the contact point on the ob, and had the cb hit it. Your mind can quickly do that when you let it after a little training.
 
I dont see the OB as round. To me the OB is a flat disc and so is the QB.

I aim (with the tip of the cue and the "V" in my grip hand) at the OB (contact point) thru the QB as though the QB is a ghost ball.

John
 
Neil said:
Simple. Your mind does it when you think correctly and practice it consciously for a while. What you are actually doing is finding the contact point on the ob, and then you have the exact same spot but opposite side on the cb. This does not allow for CIT though. It's an equal/opposite aiming method that Jimmy Reid used to teach.

In the old days, of having a dwarf softball for a cb, it didn't work. But, your mind could quickly adjust. For years, that's how I aimed. I just found the contact point on the ob, and had the cb hit it. Your mind can quickly do that when you let it after a little training.
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This could be one way. Anybody else aim at the contact point?

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Here's a question for the players that aim by looking at the contact point. How is your mind compensating for the ball curvature? Since you will undercut the ball after so many degrees, how is your mind actually compensating? Is it using fractional aiming without you knowing it? How about ghost ball aiming?

If ever there was a head scratcher about the mental part of pool, this is it. Your mind doesn't just guess and cut the ball thinner. It's a biological computer that takes in visual information and figures out which direction you need to send the cue ball. All without you even being aware it's doing this. What system is it using?

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...
It's comparing subconscious memories of successful shots.

pj
chgo
 
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