....controversial
- Thread starter poolprince
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As usual, Patrick you are correct about most of this. I've come to trust your attention to detail and the physics of pool.
But you are also wrong about one thing and that is your belief that players are creating unnecessary complications using bad techniques. Some people cannot make certain shots without doing "unorthodox techniques". This doesn't make them bad techniques. I see them as effective techniques for that particular individual.
You don't play well enough to tell me that Earl Strickland, Keith McCready, Jim Rempe, Efren Reyes and a slew of other top players are using "bad techniques" and that they could do the same thing with a more accurate stroke or a more "reliable technique".
Players are individuals and a more traditional technique or a straighter stroke does not necessarily work better.
Suggesting that these are "bad techniques" is not doing the billiard community justice. Some of these techniques may actually eliminate some complications like kisses/double hits etc. especially for certain players and certain shots.
Keep posting your perspectives because I have found them to be valuable in clearing the smoke from my eyes on more than one occasion.
Thanks,
JoeyA
What the hell is twisting the cue? How do you twist your cue? Maybe I am misinterpreting "twist". When I think of twist, I envision the cue tip rotating or turning. So, I would imagine if i'm twisting my cue on the forward stroke, I must be squeezing my grip as I follow through to cause such a twist. I know my best strokes for maximum spin happen when my wrist is totally loose and then recoils like a spring after the stroke has stopped. I don't need to think about it, I just follow through, like said previously, as a swipe. Cue tip probably looks a bit like it has gone through the cue ball slightly off line or better yet, like it has gone off to the side. I think Johnny Holiday means the stroke itself will twist, not the wrist. Therefore the swiping motion. I'm fairly certain that he stresses follow through with the wrist recoiling a bit like a spring or shock absorber and not twisting. My observations of Mr. Strickland's approach is that he cradles his cue with his hand slightly cupped versus hanging straight down. Alot of great players will have their hand cupped inward a bit. His hand or grip seems to stay consistent or the same all the way through till his stroke is finished. I don't see any wrist twisting. Try setting an object ball in the center of the table and the cue call directly behind it at 12" and lined up straight for the side pocket. Strike the cue ball dead on, level stroke, at 3:00. If you have struck it well, the cue will sit and spin like a top. Was the stroke a twist or a swipe?
I have some doubts and think the simplest argument against it is based on the effective tip offset, as distinguished from the geometric or apparent offset, and the coefficient of friction between tip and ball. When applying english (sidespin), it's the spin/speed ratio that mainly determines the "action" off a cushion. But this ratio is directly a function of the effective offset, which is limited by the coefficient of friction (COF) between tip and ball. If you can push closer to that limit by swiping, you should be able to do the same by just lining up farther out on the cueball and executing a normal stroke.
Some time ago it was surmised by some of us that the geometric miscue limit is greater for a high squirt cue than a low squirt one, based on the same argument. They both are set by the maximum effective offset, which, if given the same tips, chalk, etc, should be the same for each type of cue. At least, it seemed plausible. This is apparently true, or true enough, according to a comparison done by Dr. Dave here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-47.htm
Can swooping possibly raise the maximum COF? It doesn't seem likely, but....
Another argument against can be made based on how fast you have to get the tip going sideways before contact just to make a significant dent in squirt when striking at a large offset. I'm a little rusty on the exact numbers, but I believe you'd have to end up pushing the butt more sideways than forward during your business stroke in order to generate enough lateral tip movement to make a major reduction (at typical cueball speeds). And this was based on a hypothetical where the center of mass of the cue is moving forward (aligned with the long axis of the cue) at the moment of impact, although the cue is still rotating about a vertical axis. I think it's more realistic to assume that the center of mass would be moving in the opposite (lateral) direction of the tip. This probably makes matters worse (further reduces the pre-impact angular momentum of the stick about the cueball's center, for instance), but the net effect is still fuzzy in my mind.
The point is that if you were to achieve nothing else beyond significant squirt reduction, which itself seems problematic, you're not going to generate that much more spin/speed, around 4-6%, and that only if you managed to completely eliminate it (squirt).
Jim
I see Patrick has beaten me to the punch again...drats! (but well said)
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Joey, if you're saying that some players learned this way and it would be disruptive for them to try to change such a deeply ingrained habit, I won't disagree. But I can't believe that complicating your stroke with twists and swoops to achieve what can be done more effectively with a simple straight stroke is anything but bad technique for those with a choice.
I don't think the logic of this depends on who's saying it, Joey. Those guys might have room for some improvement even though nobody plays as well as they do.
I think the billiards community is best served with an understanding of billiards "best practices", from which individuals can deviate as necessary but with full knowledge of what they're choosing to do, what they're choosing not to do, and (hopefully) why. I guess you have to interpret what I mean by "bad technique" in that light.
I always enjoy your perspective too, Joey, coming as it does from such a rich playing experience and always with good humor (a "best practices" internet technique I'm trying to learn).
pj
chgo
P.S. Forgot to address this:
I grant this possibility, although I'm not convinced a straight stroke can't accomplish all of those things too. I'm talking about the idea that different "standard" cue ball effects (like CB spin or direction) can be produced with these techniques than with a straight stroke.
pj
chgo
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Here's the deal....
The twisting component of this technique has nothing to do transferred spin. Twisting the cue like a screwdriver transfers ZERO additional spin to the CB.
Twisting the cue is a swipe technique (it bends the wrist)...swiping is not a bad habit nor is it an unnecessary complication. Let me explain a little further....
Let me begin by saying no one strokes straight....no one on planet earth. Some EXCELLENT players stroke REALLY close to straight and others simply make balls with their crooked strokes really well.
With that said, there are two classes of pool players: those who strike the CB dead-on with a "straight cue" (call this shooting with parallel english, whatever, who knows what it's called) and those who INTENTIONALLY swipe across the face. Some swipe in a dynamic fashion (during the final stroke) and some pivot the cue pre-shot and stroke across the face from that position.
Let's look at golf for a moment---- no one swings straight in golf either. Nearly every shot a pro plays has intentional side spin (draw/fade) with built-in margin-of-error. Jack Nicklaus once said, "If I hit a golf ball straight, it was completely by accident." So....
What the wrist turn does is provide the shooter with a "fixed" amount of offset (fixed as in...repeatable and the same every time, mainly due to the joint range) during a dynamic swipe. Truman is a great example for banking and Chavez, imo, is a good example of traditional pocketing with this move.
The reason I stressed the golf analogy above is that these players are intentionally swinging crooked because it's easier to execute than a straight shot. Since their body is aligned for the post-pivot position, the swipe brings the tip into a very, very repeatable path - more repeatable than a stationary straight line.
I KNOOOOOOOOOW many instructors and traditionalists will likely think this is horseshit because the thought process is nothing is simpler than a straight line (which is true)....however, because the human body isn't designed to do shit in a straight line, delivering the cue on a parabolic line from an anchor point is extreeeeemely repeatable.
Unfortunately for us, we keep trying to figure out how to stroke straight instead of stroking the same way (regardless if it's straight). The wrist twist accomplishes this for a lot of advanced players.
So, while others think swiping is a bad technique....it's simply not. It's not a bad habit they picked up because of the lack of instruction, it's intentional. Ask those guys if they think it's a bad habit - they'll roll their eyes at you.
I guess I'll leave it at that. If you read into what I posted carefully, it's like telling you the sky is red instead of blue. But, perfect-straight isn't repeatable...never has been...why not be like a golfer and "play" the crookedness?
Spidey
The twisting component of this technique has nothing to do transferred spin. Twisting the cue like a screwdriver transfers ZERO additional spin to the CB.
Twisting the cue is a swipe technique (it bends the wrist)...swiping is not a bad habit nor is it an unnecessary complication. Let me explain a little further....
Let me begin by saying no one strokes straight....no one on planet earth. Some EXCELLENT players stroke REALLY close to straight and others simply make balls with their crooked strokes really well.
With that said, there are two classes of pool players: those who strike the CB dead-on with a "straight cue" (call this shooting with parallel english, whatever, who knows what it's called) and those who INTENTIONALLY swipe across the face. Some swipe in a dynamic fashion (during the final stroke) and some pivot the cue pre-shot and stroke across the face from that position.
Let's look at golf for a moment---- no one swings straight in golf either. Nearly every shot a pro plays has intentional side spin (draw/fade) with built-in margin-of-error. Jack Nicklaus once said, "If I hit a golf ball straight, it was completely by accident." So....
What the wrist turn does is provide the shooter with a "fixed" amount of offset (fixed as in...repeatable and the same every time, mainly due to the joint range) during a dynamic swipe. Truman is a great example for banking and Chavez, imo, is a good example of traditional pocketing with this move.
The reason I stressed the golf analogy above is that these players are intentionally swinging crooked because it's easier to execute than a straight shot. Since their body is aligned for the post-pivot position, the swipe brings the tip into a very, very repeatable path - more repeatable than a stationary straight line.
I KNOOOOOOOOOW many instructors and traditionalists will likely think this is horseshit because the thought process is nothing is simpler than a straight line (which is true)....however, because the human body isn't designed to do shit in a straight line, delivering the cue on a parabolic line from an anchor point is extreeeeemely repeatable.
Unfortunately for us, we keep trying to figure out how to stroke straight instead of stroking the same way (regardless if it's straight). The wrist twist accomplishes this for a lot of advanced players.
So, while others think swiping is a bad technique....it's simply not. It's not a bad habit they picked up because of the lack of instruction, it's intentional. Ask those guys if they think it's a bad habit - they'll roll their eyes at you.
I guess I'll leave it at that. If you read into what I posted carefully, it's like telling you the sky is red instead of blue. But, perfect-straight isn't repeatable...never has been...why not be like a golfer and "play" the crookedness?
Spidey
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> My question is just how many good players are there that haven't figured out that you have to be able to not only stroke straight thru the ball,but also have to swipe when needed to play the game well?
Even Bustamante comes straight thru when needed,such as on a long straight in draw shot. It may not look like it,but he does. Most of the time,however,he lines everything up with low left and changes from there.
I was oblivious to such things until I saw the Meucci instructional video where Rempe discusses the "tuck/roll" method for "inducing" spin,such as the low,inside "kill" shot when cutting a ball in and coming 2 rails out of the corner to hold position. Another example is using it to slow roll a ball down the long rail while staying close to the rail,using low,outside spin and a full hit.
It wasn't until about 6 months after I started using it that I got used to it,but it opened up possibilities I was unaware of. Once I got the hang of it,my runout percentage shot up.
Of course,this is also closely related to another controversial subject,whether you stroke the cue with a loose grip and throw the cue thru the ball,or whether you drive it thru the ball with a deliberate hand-action and vary your grip pressure. Once again,I do BOTH.
I've even experimented with the "twist" in a forward motion. Ever see a player who's cue seems to be "turning" on their warm-up strokes,or seen Johnny Archer's cue spin 3 full turns when he comes thru on a draw shot? Some people's strokes do that naturally,some don't. I first noticed it watching Mike Sigel and Rempe. I made mine do it thru a deliberate hand action,to the point it became natural,even now that I've really lightened up on my grip. This technique also works for certain things. Tommy D.
Even Bustamante comes straight thru when needed,such as on a long straight in draw shot. It may not look like it,but he does. Most of the time,however,he lines everything up with low left and changes from there.
I was oblivious to such things until I saw the Meucci instructional video where Rempe discusses the "tuck/roll" method for "inducing" spin,such as the low,inside "kill" shot when cutting a ball in and coming 2 rails out of the corner to hold position. Another example is using it to slow roll a ball down the long rail while staying close to the rail,using low,outside spin and a full hit.
It wasn't until about 6 months after I started using it that I got used to it,but it opened up possibilities I was unaware of. Once I got the hang of it,my runout percentage shot up.
Of course,this is also closely related to another controversial subject,whether you stroke the cue with a loose grip and throw the cue thru the ball,or whether you drive it thru the ball with a deliberate hand-action and vary your grip pressure. Once again,I do BOTH.
I've even experimented with the "twist" in a forward motion. Ever see a player who's cue seems to be "turning" on their warm-up strokes,or seen Johnny Archer's cue spin 3 full turns when he comes thru on a draw shot? Some people's strokes do that naturally,some don't. I first noticed it watching Mike Sigel and Rempe. I made mine do it thru a deliberate hand action,to the point it became natural,even now that I've really lightened up on my grip. This technique also works for certain things. Tommy D.
I have never seen a snooker player twist anything, not even each others' nipples, and they can juice up the CB with so much english already with a good stroke, so I don't see the twisting motion is being needed or even help any CB action. JMHO to each their own.
Happy shooting my friends!
Chino
Happy shooting my friends!
Chino
All I am saying is get with Keith. Listen, learn, apply until mastered, and then go about your business.
??????????????????
I don't recall ever seeing anything like this? Do you have any video references. If it's actually happening, I would love to see it.
Steve
me, too...
JoeyA, I completely respect your belief that a player's IDEA of executing a certain technique can lead to useful improvement, even if the physical execution does not match up precisely with the mental image.
FOR ME, however, the idea of twisting the cue while stroking would be a distracting complication. Lacking the talent and table time of Earl, Efren, and the other great players that you mention, I believe that most players would be better off following the thoughts of Thunderball. Of course, YMMV.
I'm interested in jalapus' statement below:
I don't have any personal experience with Mr. Shufflet, but he seems to enjoy a good reputation as an instructor. I have also heard previously that he teaches this technique. Hopefully jalapus or someone else can describe what Stan teaches in this regard.
JoeyA, I completely respect your belief that a player's IDEA of executing a certain technique can lead to useful improvement, even if the physical execution does not match up precisely with the mental image.
FOR ME, however, the idea of twisting the cue while stroking would be a distracting complication. Lacking the talent and table time of Earl, Efren, and the other great players that you mention, I believe that most players would be better off following the thoughts of Thunderball. Of course, YMMV.
I'm interested in jalapus' statement below:
I don't have any personal experience with Mr. Shufflet, but he seems to enjoy a good reputation as an instructor. I have also heard previously that he teaches this technique. Hopefully jalapus or someone else can describe what Stan teaches in this regard.
Stan teaches this primarily for banking. He learned most of this information from Truman Hogue. It's actually very, very similar to Ron Vitello's center-center / hip-pivot technique. The primary difference is the location of your turn/pivot. The cue-twist pivots from the wrist (dynamically) and Ron's technique pivots from the hip (stationary, pre-shot).
Are we mixing terms?
As I read this post, it looks like some people are describing
As for the " screwdriver twist," I don't think it adds anything, but it potentially ruins an otherwise straight stroke.
As for the "pivot/wipe," I have no opinion but I am open minded and intrigued. Seems it would be hard to control properly.
As I read this post, it looks like some people are describing
- twisting the cue (like a screw driver), while others are describing
- an intentional pivot on the bridge hand during the stroke to "wipe" the tip across the face of the CB.
As for the " screwdriver twist," I don't think it adds anything, but it potentially ruins an otherwise straight stroke.
As for the "pivot/wipe," I have no opinion but I am open minded and intrigued. Seems it would be hard to control properly.
When you twist, you're actually swiping. When you rotate the cue in your hand, your wrist breaks. That's the move - the rotation of the cue is just a byproduct of what's really happening.
Twisting (screwdriver roll) and pivot/swipe are the same core thing - just different technique/execution.
Hey JAM... if you're reading this, please PM me Keith's #. I'd like to pick his brain about this stuff. I promise to be quick and respectful of his time.
thx
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When you twist, you're actually swiping. When you rotate the cue in your hand, your wrist breaks. That's the move - the rotation of the cue is just a byproduct of what's really happening.
Twisting (screwdriver roll) and pivot/swipe are the same core thing - just different technique/execution.
Hey JAM... if you're reading this, please PM me Keith's #. I'd like to pick his brain about this stuff. I promise to be quick and respectful of his time.
PM sent.
Wow, "PM sent" is too short a message. So I'll type some audio I am listening to:
I think most of the closures were proposed for areas in the western Gulf of Alaska and the Aleutian Islands, and the observer programs there are quite good for areas offshore, but the near-shore vessels are smaller. They aren't observed with as high a level of coverage.
There, that should do it! :grin-square:
Well, in just 5 minutes I completed my education on twisting.
Keith's exact words were, "I twist on nearly every shot... don't listen to those people."
He opened my eyes to twisting into the center axis.... holy shit batman, i learned a new toy.
WOOOOOOOOW
Keith's exact words were, "I twist on nearly every shot... don't listen to those people."
He opened my eyes to twisting into the center axis.... holy shit batman, i learned a new toy.
WOOOOOOOOW
1 & 3 are the same thing. 2 accomplishes the same thing as 1 & 3 but with more moving parts.
When the tip is stroked straight through the CB (1 or 3 above) its "angle of approach" is the line from your bridge to the contact point.
When the tip is "swiped" across the CB's face (2 above) its "angle of approach" is the line from a place beside your bridge to the contact point.
You can create the swiped angle of approach (2 above) by simply moving your bridge hand a little sideways and stroking straight at the contact point from that new angle (1 or 3 above). The results will be identical, but much more accurate, consistent and reliable.
Pool is simple. Doing it perfectly is the hard part. Don't add unnecessary complications.
pj
chgo