Controversy over Corey Deuel break

kanecalgary said:
Do you consider twisting the rack in 8 ball cheating? Corey was caught and warned about twisting the rack to wire the wing ball with the magic rack in 8 ball. This was at the Chinook winds tourney where they had one pattern for everyone. Alternate stripes and solids.


Someone else asked about video to Corey's other breaks. YouTube Deuel Tourangeau USBTC to see his 2nd ball break with a pattern rack.
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All it takes to prevent purposely, or accidentally, twisting the rack with a magic rack, is a pen. Just make a little mark in the top hole and the bottom hole. The it is the same every time. But, you don't KNOW that he was intentionally twisting it, do you? Because it is not hard to make the wing ball with a magic rack, it's all about the speed of the hit and the contact on the one ball.

To pattern racking, I don't care for it. But, unless the rules say you can't do it, then it is nothing more than smart strategy.

edit: You talk about Corey cheating, why nothing about Stan doing an illegal lag shot at the beginning of that match? He waited to shoot until Corey's ball rebounded off the end rail.
 
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Neil said:
All it takes to prevent purposely, or accidentally, twisting the rack with a magic rack, is a pen. Just make a little mark in the top hole and the bottom hole. The it is the same every time. But, you don't KNOW that he was intentionally twisting it, do you? Because it is not hard to make the wing ball with a magic rack, it's all about the speed of the hit and the contact on the one ball.

To pattern racking, I don't care for it. But, unless the rules say you can't do it, then it is nothing more than smart strategy.

edit: You talk about Corey cheating, why nothing about Stan doing an illegal lag shot at the beginning of that match? He waited to shoot until Corey's ball rebounded off the end rail.
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Yes, I do know Neil. This is Corey Deuel we're talking about! He will do anything to gain an advantage.

Now about the lag, I can't help you if you think that was cheating but I'll try.

Corey's ball was already set before the handshake. After the shake Stan downs a ball at the other end while Corey is already down and ready. Stan sets his ball and Corey fires. Is Stan suppose to rush his routine at this point? Do you think Stan was intentionally trying to gain something here? Do you think Stan paid any attention to Corey's lag and adjusted because of it?

Their PSR looked to be the same length just Corey had a big head start.

I can't believe you brought up the lag and think Stan cheated and waited. Maybe review it again and put yourself in his shoes, would you rush your normal routine in the hotseat match in Reno? Race to 5 box 8 ball where the lag could be everything.

I've asked Stan what he thought about Corey's break and if he would ever pattern rack like this since he usually always breaks 2nd ball. Let's just say he would never even think about doing it and doesn't hold the guys that do it in very high regard.
 
Anyone like NASCAR here? Anyone realize how often they get busted breaking the rules for just a slight edge against their competitors? And of course they get caught only a small fraction of the time so that means a whole lot of "cheating" is being tried, not saying that all teams do it but pushing the boundaries is something that some people do when you want to WIN.
 
irock said:
was he breaking like in the video, banking the wing ball, or was he coming off the back rail into the rack? Are there videos on u tube of him doing it in matches, it would be interesting to see them.
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westcoast said:
Corey is incredibly intelligent to even think of breaking like that. I would have never even considered it.
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This doesn't really show that he is "incredibly intelligent". Only that he's more intelligent than you.

HAHA...just messing with you. Couldn't resist. Corey is definitely one of the highest pool IQ players I've ever seen, and certainly the top in the US.

KMRUNOUT
 
kanecalgary said:
This is not the way the box 8 ball is supposed to be played. This wing ball bank pattern rack and his 2nd ball pattern rack is as greasy as it gets!

Corey's great at creating these silly racks but new rules will now have to follow to change this from happening again. This is not helping pool.

You guys that think it's great need a lesson about box 8 ball. Ask any pro what they think about this s**t!
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Your post essentially reduces to this: "The people that make the pool rules are not as smart as Corey. They didn't account for his innovation. It would be better for pool if Corey was a bit dumber to allow the weaknesses in the rules to remain hidden."

That isn't progress. It's just ignorance my man.

KMRUNOUT

Edit...just realized you might be talking about the break like in the video where he banks the back corner ball in. If you were referring to that then disregard my whole post lol.
 
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Kid Dynomite said:
To say the games creator was "Nostradamus " and envisioned a less then random outcome when as you say, it has been a culture of "hit it hard and hope" for over 100 years is pretty far fetched.

Your post above most clearly illustrates what I am saying about the games original design and intent.

Why not work as hard as he did on the break on making tough shots???

He tried to win that way and was getting his hat handed to him! Yes? That is the only reason for the change in strategy when you can't beat them then try something new ???

He went for getting the break advantage over shot making, kicking and safety play! All technical areas of the game while the break was the least technical aspect and neglected by design and due to the games original intent.

Kd

KD


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Are you suggesting that one should not attempt to play to their strengths and and avoid their weaknesses? It kinda sounds like you are saying that one should *not* change strategy if the current one isn't working. This seems like an odd position. Is this what you actually meant?

KMRUNOUT
 
Neil said:
Because it is not hard to make the wing ball with a magic rack, it's all about the speed of the hit and the contact on the one ball.
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I think you got confused or didn't read my post carefully. I'm talking about the wing ball on a 8 ball rack. He used a 2nd ball break with a twist.

If I'm confused and you're talking about 8 ball and by " one ball " you mean head ball, I would love to see someone consistently make the wing ball if it's not that hard.
 
SWRLE said:
Here in Phoenix the convention is that every barbox 8 ball player has to bust them as hard as he or she can and try to run out every time. Strategies, safety play and thinking ahead are highly frowned upon. Statistics show this style is very reliable and has at least an 8% chance of success.
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LMAO....this is awesome!!
 
Neil said:
Because it is not hard to make the wing ball with a magic rack, it's all about the speed of the hit and the contact on the one ball.
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He was saying in 8 ball. Are you suggesting it is easy to make the back corner ball in the corner pocket with the magic rack? That seems unlikely.

What would the "wing" ball be in 8 ball? As far as I know, the 2nd balls are the ones you can make easy in the sides with the magic rack. I would love to hear the technique for making the back corner ball in the corner. That would be fun to play around with!

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Your post essentially reduces to this: "The people that make the pool rules are not as smart as Corey. They didn't account for his innovation. It would be better for pool if Corey was a bit dumber to allow the weaknesses in the rules to remain hidden."

That isn't progress. It's just ignorance my man.

KMRUNOUT
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I'm fine with it happening once and showing the flaws. I'm just surprised it's happened again.

8 ball rules aren't set in stone and are constantly changing, this pattern racking rule needs to be addressed. Reno changed it during the tourney after the hotseat match where I think Corey first introduced it. The CWO tourney after adopted the alternate balls rule to which Corey started twisting the rack for an advantage.

I don't care if a guy soft breaks 8 ball for a chess match, hits 2nd 3rd 4th 5th back of the pack etc. Just alternate balls for now until Corey figures that one out! Lol.

Seriously, anyone know why he does it? For money, the title, show flaws or just to be "that guy"? Is it worth it to be known as that shady guy?
 
Was he racking like shown in post #44 every time -- four consecutive solids in the back row and a solid to the end of rows 2, 3, and 4? That's pattern racking. What was the organizer's or TD's reason for not following WPA 8-Ball rules that prohibit a "purposeful or intentional pattern"?

It was certainly clever of Corey to figure out how to spring loose just the solids (or stripes if used in the same locations), but why would an event want to see that done? Why not follow WPA (or other similar) rules? Were they just ignorant of this break and could not end it once the event started?
 
KMRUNOUT said:
He was saying in 8 ball. Are you suggesting it is easy to make the back corner ball in the corner pocket with the magic rack? That seems unlikely.

What would the "wing" ball be in 8 ball? As far as I know, the 2nd balls are the ones you can make easy in the sides with the magic rack. I would love to hear the technique for making the back corner ball in the corner. That would be fun to play around with!

KMRUNOUT
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"He was saying in 9 ball" I think is what you meant.

The wing ball in 8 ball is the same definition as 9 ball. The outermost ball. In 8 ball it's the last row either corner.

Have you ever 2nd ball broke? It's a ball that sometimes fires right in. With a magic rack twist it can be made dead. Speed, contact and conditions still come into play and need to be practiced.

Another example is a one pocket break where the "wing" ball rolls right in.

Last method with a straight rack you can pull back the wing ball a quarter inch or so but still frozen to the back row and 2nd ball break.
 
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Wow, six pages of posts to debate the obvious intent of the break to generate a "random" outcome of ball positions and balls pocketed.

We really can not be in disagreement with the original intent and design of the game.

It does not matter the methods utilized to eliminate the randomness. It only matters that by employing those methods undermines the game! Regardless of the reasons for utilizing them. Poor infrastructure in the games rule community is grounds for exploitation? We can't standardize balls and tables what makes rules any different?

Kd
 
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KMRUNOUT said:
Are you suggesting that one should not attempt to play to their strengths and and avoid their weaknesses? It kinda sounds like you are saying that one should *not* change strategy if the current one isn't working. This seems like an odd position. Is this what you actually meant?

KMRUNOUT
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My point is regarding motive and intent. Why destroy the game by undermining the "randomness" designed and intended?

He could not cut the mustard early on in his career technically and went off the reservation looking for an edge by minimizing the randomness of the break!

These are facts!

Now, everyone is exploiting the cracks in the games and looking for "unintended" edges over their opponents during the breaking portion of the game.

Kd
 
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He's always been a master at looking for a move, not always on a pool table either. Ask Al Atkinson about his watch trade with Corey.
 
There is a cure for this. Put the one ball in front and require that you hit the one ball first on the break shot. There are leagues where this is a requirement to stop the second ball break shot.
 
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