Copyright Schmopyright... at what shaggin point?

[cammel8]

A price tag accordingly. The only way this hurts anyone is the sheisting hack of a book scalper that I would have to pay an incredible amount of cash to in order to get a legal published copy from. So they can take a whizz in the breeze, I'm not feeding them.

Lovingly,

Lesh

Well the laws of supply and demand dictate the price. If you know you can get the book cheaper than the advertised price at one place, you will not spend over that at another. Since you're just worried that the scalpers will make money, here's what you do.

YOU go out and buy as many copies as you can from the "scalpers" as you call them and pay what ever you have to to get them. Then once you have gotten as many copies copies of each that you can get your hands one, take out a a giant add to advertise. Might I sugesst a superbowl add anouncing you have the books, and are selling them at Publisher prices. This way it gets out to the biggest amount of people possible.

Now sell your books at the publisher prices to the consumers. This in turn will make it to where no "scalper" will be able to sell the books to anyone over the fair market value you just set. That will stick it to the scalpers and they wont make any more money off any one ever again.

IF you dont believe this will work, just look at Dale Perry. He went from having $1700 cues to $170 cues by killing his own market with ebay.

Now if your sole purppose is just to steal the book because you want it, by no means let these other peoples morals stand in your way. But might I suggest taking the other persons advice of beating up an old lady and taking her money then buying the book. You will get in less trouble legally for assualt and robbery than you will for copyright infringement. Last I heard you get 10 years and $100,000 fine for copyright infringement, but for assualt and theft more than likely you will only get five years and restitution. But the good news is you will have plenty of down time to read the books you have just gotten through ill gotten gains....


************************************NOTE**********************************************

The above is satarical in nature and is ment to show you how assinign your question was. I in no way condone the theft of intilectual property, nor the beating of little old ladies unless they deserve it. Just buy the damn book and read it then sell it and quit being a whiny bit*h about how much it costs. I am one of the most frugal people you will meat but even I understand that value comes at a cost. And sometimes you have to shell out some money to get things you need. If it is that important to you to read the books then buy them, but for gods sake dont comit a crime to get them, and if you do commit a crime to get them dont anounce it to the world on a public forum that you plan to do it. It only shows intent and the courts can use it against you when it comes time for sentancing.

 

[uwate]

fair use is probably the most widely misused term in online copyright infringement.

I think people assume their perceived entitlement to free distribution means it should be fair to use it because they dont plan on selling anything. Thats not how it works.

 

[macguy]

One must first have the $200 spare cash to buy the book.

Pool is more and more becoming a sport that denies access to those with low incomes. Sad in my opinion.

The OP is not advocating stealing, scamming or anything unethical. I believe s/he is suggesting that charging high prices for books does little to promote the game.

People tell me that I should charge more for lessons, but I continue to offer them for $20 an hour, with additional discounts for groups. I do this because I want to accommodate those who can't pay more...in hopes of promoting the game I love.

The content is not really that valuable. I didn't find it to even be all that good, just some examples of what you may do in this situation or that situation. The pictures were interesting but even today you find all those old pictures on the net so that is no a big deal either. The book is just rare and in demand. If you are collector of billiard memorabilia then buy it.

If one is under the impression you are going to become great one pocket player from these books they will be disappointed. Watching and studying some vids on youtube along with maybe a lesson or two from a competent instructor is a better use of their money.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

The current price of the actual book is somewhat unrelated to it's content, it is based primarily on the rarity of the physical book. The information contained in the book is pretty much free.

Good point.

I used to have quite a collection of rare violin reference books. They were indispensable in my field because there is so much forgery going on you really want to do everything you can to avoid costly mistakes when purchasing these items.

Some of these books reached ridiculous prices at auction houses like Sotheby's and Christie's. A $26 book on violin bows by Joseph Roda reached well over $1000 at one point, prompting me to get rid of my copy while the getting was good.

Sure enough, a new bow reference book came out and the Roda book plummeted in value. I took the money I had made on mine and bought the new two-volume set at $700 directly from the author in France.

My set continued to climb in value up to $4-5000, but before I had a chance to sell mine, a third reference set was published. My books are now barely worth what I paid for them.

Another example is a five-volume encyclopedia that contained every known violin maker from the 1500s to the present - about 14,000 of them. While the books were in print they were readily available for about $50 for the set, but after going out of print they climbed steadily to over $800. Then the publisher decided to reprint the books, selling them as a two-volume set for about $80. That's what mine are worth today, even though they are an early edition. There is simply no real collectible value to a reference book outside of its content.

At no time did the content of these books justify the rising prices, it was the fact that they were out of print and very desirable that created the market for them. Maybe Mr. Robin should direct his outrage at the resellers who are making all the money on his books. Have them reprinted and the price for used copies will drop like a stone.

 

[Lesh]

You are talking to this guy like he cares. Several years ago I sold a copy of Burton Spains cue making book on ebey. I forget what it finally sold for but it was something like over a $100.00.
While the auction was going I must have gotten maybe 25 or more emails asking what I would want to sell a photo copy of the book. Here is the funny part, they were offering like $5 and $10. They were not only dishonest but dishonest and cheap.

Don't waste your words on this guy he could care less. All dishonest people try to find ways to rationalize their behavior. Those who steal money at work convince themselves they are underpaid and deserve it, so they just steal it. A thief is a thief.

Well actually I do care. I considered being evil.... I won't lie. But I happen to be a writer as well and one that has been screwed over by business people. I really just want to see the volumes and I eventually will..... Honestly.

This isn't about my need to be q thief as evidently I am well known to be given my heinous well publicized criminal history. Yeah.... You all know me too well. Can't fool you detectives one bit.

But thanks to everyone that helped.to guide me in earnest good intent.

Regards,

Lesh

 

[macguy]

Good point.

I used to have quite a collection of rare violin reference books. They were indispensable in my field because there is so much forgery going on you really want to do everything you can to avoid costly mistakes when purchasing these items.

Some of these books reached ridiculous prices at auction houses like Sotheby's and Christie's. A $26 book on violin bows by Joseph Roda reached well over $1000 at one point, prompting me to get rid of my copy while the getting was good.

Sure enough, a new bow reference book came out and the Roda book plummeted in value. I took the money I had made on mine and bought the new two-volume set at $700 directly from the author in France.

My set continued to climb in value up to $4-5000, but before I had a chance to sell mine, a third reference set was published. My books are now barely worth what I paid for them.

Another example is a five-volume encyclopedia that contained every known violin maker from the 1500s to the present - about 14,000 of them. While the books were in print they were readily available for about $50 for the set, but after going out of print they climbed steadily to over $800. Then the publisher decided to reprint the books, selling them as a two-volume set for about $80. That's what mine are worth today, even though they are an early edition. There is simply no real collectible value to a reference book outside of its content.

At no time did the content of these books justify the rising prices, it was the fact that they were out of print and very desirable that created the market for them. Maybe Mr. Robin should direct his outrage at the resellers who are making all the money on his books. Have them reprinted and the price for used copies will drop like a stone.

To go along with your post, then why would someone who has paid say $600.00 for a book , photo copy the content (As the OP is requesting) and give it away to him? It is not in their best interest.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

fair use is probably the most widely misused term in online copyright infringement.

I think people assume their perceived entitlement to free distribution means it should be fair to use it because they dont plan on selling anything. Thats not how it works.

I think I already said I was wrong about that part. I was going on memory involving a specific incident, but after doing a bit of research today it appears that it is always illegal for an individual to copy a book that isn't in the public domain, even if they have no intent to distribute the material.

 

[cammel8]

I found this brief outline of what is covered under copyright law in the US.

http://www2.honolulu.hawaii.edu/facdev/guidebk/policies/copyrite.htm

I'm not sure about the "fair use" part, and I may have been wrong with what I said in a previous post. Suffice it to say there is a lot of gray area in copyright law, and precedents are continually being set on case-by-case basis. There is a lot of bad information out there, though.

I really doubt if anybody here has never ripped a CD onto their computer and made a copy for their friend, or shared digital music files, or copyright-protected photos, or put a copyrighted piece of music as a background to a YouTube video they posted, or downloaded a PDF of a published work, or videotaped a movie from TV, or accepted bootleg computer software from a coworker, or any of dozens of other seemingly innocuous copyright infringements.

Just one offense along these lines shows the same lack of integrity as numerous offenses IMO. If any of you are guiltless of all of the above, then sure, go ahead and cast the first stone.

The laws in which you are quoting, i believe, refer to making copies of books you own. And yes, it is poerfectly legal to make copies for yourself of works you own whether it be a book, movie, or song. Where it becomes illegal, is when you make copies of media you do not own for your own personal gain, whether it be monitary or intelectual gain.

EXAMPLE: You own the dvd of Shrek. You have three heathens for kids that dont respect anything because, well, they are heathens as most childern are. You know if you leave the original copy of Shrek out, the heathens will probably use it to spread chunky peanut butter on their sandwich. In this instance you are allowed to make a copy of the dvd, and the kids can watch the copy, and iprove thier sandwich making expeirience in any way they see fit to do so using the copy while the original is locked up safe and sound. If you sell, destroy, or otherwise lose ownershop of the original, you must destroy any copy of it you made as you no longer own a copy of it.

EXAMPLE 2: You have a couple of spoiled little heathens that you call kids and they want to watch Shrek. You cant affoard to buy Shrek because you have spoiled the rotten little brats so much that you have depleated your funds. Your freind, who also has heathens for kids, somehow was able to buy a copy. You borrow his chunky peanutbutter covered copy and make a copy for yourself, then give him back his copy, which of course is now covered with not only chunky peanut butter but also jelly becasue your little heathens got their hands on it. In this instance it is ilegal because you never owned the copy in the first place.

(ok you got me, I dont like kids)

Anyway, the only way you can copy intelectual property is if you already own it or if it has become part of public domain. In which there is a hundred year limit on copyright, if I am not mistaken, before it becomes part of public domain. And I believe you are allowed to copy parts of something to use in your own literary work as long as you correctly site the original owner.

Course I'm no lawyer but that is what i was taught in school.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

To go along with your post, then why would someone who has paid say $600.00 for a book , photo copy the content (As the OP is requesting) and give it away to him? It is not in their best interest.

I'm neither advocating it nor am I justifying it. I was just trying to explore the legal aspects of it. The moral or financial arguments are of no interest to me. Those things are best decided by the individuals involved.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

The laws in which you are quoting, i believe, refer to making copies of books you own. And yes, it is poerfectly legal to make copies for yourself of works you own whether it be a book, movie, or song. Where it becomes illegal, is when you make copies of media you do not own for your own personal gain, whether it be monitary or intelectual gain.

EXAMPLE: You own the dvd of Shrek. You have three heathens for kids that dont respect anything because, well, they are heathens as most childern are. You know if you leave the original copy of Shrek out, the heathens will probably use it to spread chunky peanut butter on their sandwich. In this instance you are allowed to make a copy of the dvd, and the kids can watch the copy, and iprove thier sandwich making expeirience in any way they see fit to do so using the copy while the original is locked up safe and sound. If you sell, destroy, or otherwise lose ownershop of the original, you must destroy any copy of it you made as you no longer own a copy of it.

EXAMPLE 2: You have a couple of spoiled little heathens that you call kids and they want to watch Shrek. You cant affoard to buy Shrek because you have spoiled the rotten little brats so much that you have depleated your funds. Your freind, who also has heathens for kids, somehow was able to buy a copy. You borrow his chunky peanutbutter covered copy and make a copy for yourself, then give him back his copy, which of course is now covered with not only chunky peanut butter but also jelly becasue your little heathens got their hands on it. In this instance it is ilegal because you never owned the copy in the first place.

(ok you got me, I dont like kids)

Anyway, the only way you can copy intelectual property is if you already own it or if it has become part of public domain. In which there is a hundred year limit on copyright, if I am not mistaken, before it becomes part of public domain. And I believe you are allowed to copy parts of something to use in your own literary work as long as you correctly site the original owner.

Course I'm no lawyer but that is what i was taught in school.

Ya know, I don't think either of us has a real handle on all of this. Lots of it is still being written, in large part because of the ease of digital transfer these days. The original concept of copyright was to protect the publishers, not the intellectual property of the authors. That all changed for good when digital files made actual publishers somewhat unnecessary.

It's always the ones who stand to gain the most financially that fight the hardest to get their "intellectual property" protected (Microsoft, Apple, Sony, etc.), even though they do everything in their power to steal the content from the original creators whenever they can get away with it.

 

[PhilosopherKing]

One must first have the $200 spare cash to buy the book.

Pool is more and more becoming a sport that denies access to those with low incomes. Sad in my opinion.

The OP is not advocating stealing, scamming or anything unethical. I believe s/he is suggesting that charging high prices for books does little to promote the game.

People tell me that I should charge more for lessons, but I continue to offer them for $20 an hour, with additional discounts for groups. I do this because I want to accommodate those who can't pay more...in hopes of promoting the game I love.

No, one must first have the spare time to play pool recreationally... If he wants the books he can spend his leisure time mowing his neighbors' lawns until he can afford them.

Also, one could make the argument that charging high prices for the books is great promotion for the game: What's better than promoting the game to the people who have money and are willing to spend it?

 

[macguy]

So I want to get a copy of "Winning One Pocket" and "Shots, Moves & Strategies" (the two volume set) by famed author and wizard compiler Eddie Robin. I have money, I want to spend it. But I will not be the fool that pays 200.00 to 600.00 for either or both of these books. I don't care if they resurrect Cornbread Red to hand deliver the damn thing to me.

At what point is it reasonably acceptable, for the sake of scholarly study, to just go ahead and outright pirate yourself a copy of these books by any means necessary? I have morals and scruples and a conscience, but none of those parts of me is bothered in the least when I am faced with absolutely no other option. Its kind of like after a major natural disaster and your family is starving to death with no relief in sight.... the local grocery store is gonna be light a few canned goods until I get some steady help out this M'er F'er.

So what.... what are your feelings on the matter?


Regards,

Lesh

This may help you out

http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-pocket-...616?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c756c228

 

[jtaylor996]

So I want to get a copy of "Winning One Pocket" and "Shots, Moves & Strategies" (the two volume set) by famed author and wizard compiler Eddie Robin. I have money, I want to spend it. But I will not be the fool that pays 200.00 to 600.00 for either or both of these books. I don't care if they resurrect Cornbread Red to hand deliver the damn thing to me.

At what point is it reasonably acceptable, for the sake of scholarly study, to just go ahead and outright pirate yourself a copy of these books by any means necessary? I have morals and scruples and a conscience, but none of those parts of me is bothered in the least when I am faced with absolutely no other option. Its kind of like after a major natural disaster and your family is starving to death with no relief in sight.... the local grocery store is gonna be light a few canned goods until I get some steady help out this M'er F'er.

So what.... what are your feelings on the matter?


Regards,

Lesh

If a book gets rare, then my best advice it so hit the public or university interlibrary load system.

 

[jimmyg]

If a book gets rare, then my best advice it so hit the public or university interlibrary load system.

Exactly...

Knowledge is free. Books? Not necessarily so.

One can go to a public library and read Tom Sawyer for free, owning an original first edition is probably price prohibitive for many, but owning a $5 copy makes it available to all.

J

 

[maxeypad2007]

The books in my opinion are overrated and dated.

 

[hang-the-9]

Nice troll .... 8/10.
I actually took the time to say nice troll.
:::::golf clap::::::

How so? I just pointed out that complaining about the price of a book when you have a bunch of extra stuff you clearly don't "need" is silly.

 

[macguy]

If a book gets rare, then my best advice it so hit the public or university interlibrary load system.

I don't think it is rare. The link I posted was to books being sold by it looks like Eddie Robin himself for $158.00

 

[Lesh]

How so? I just pointed out that complaining about the price of a book when you have a bunch of extra stuff you clearly don't "need" is silly.

Certainly I don't need the books to save a kidney or anything... But It's information I would like to avail myself of. T'would please me ever so.

Anyways.... This thread has bourne excellent fruit, for this wondrous community has reached out to me with a plethora of options in my time of "need". I thank you all.

Gratefully,

Lesh

 

[pletho]

200 - 600 is cheap lessons compared to the amount you will pay to learn from players who are better than you....

 

[pletho]

Kay, never mind.
I guess the poor stay poor and the rich get richer.

I guess I will just write my own book and publish copies for my friends.

Smoldering with poor man's rage,

Lesh

Maybe Obama will give it to you for free!