Cored with Phenolic Rod

[manwon]

What exactly does "increase the Resonance" mean ? Are you saying the cue is louder ? Are you saying that some frequencies are amplified (lower or higher or midrange ?) ? The sound decays slower ? I'm curious about what you have measured.

Dave

Dave I may not have explained this clearly, but what I am trying to say is that with the cues pin, A-Joint Pin, and the cues weight bolt set in a wooden core that is surrounded by a Phenolic Tube. Even with the entire cue or parts of the cue cored in the above manner, the Vibration or Resonance, which are both certainly measured in frequencies are freely transmitted the length of the cue. This equates to what a player feels in their back hand after contact is made with the cue ball, along with the sound frequency produced by the hit, and all of this together is known as a cues hit.

Will this make the sound decay faster or slower I don't know.

How are the frequencies amplified Higher - lower - Midrange don't know.

Hope this helps

 

[DaveK]

...I don't know.

OK, thanks.

Dave

 

[JoeyInCali]

How are the frequencies amplified Higher - lower - Midrange don't know.
If you take a high frequency down, it's not amplifying, it's muffling.
The only way to amplify a high frequency is to increase it's decibles/loudness.
That's why house cues hit great ( or fullsplice for that matter ).
They have maple front and heavy forked hardwood behind them.
The hardwood handle prong raises the tone of the front.
First time I heard this is from Kerry Zeiler.
Would a phenolic cylinder around dowel and metal pin raise the tone of the wood/pin inside it? I think it would muff it.
What's under them ( face ) matter more imho.
Joey~Used to sell speakers, hated Bose and loved JBL~

 

[skor]

If the person is not a pool player...he won't know the difference between a broom stick vs a pool cue.

I'm a pool player! not a banger, a player! I am not a cue builder!!
I don't care what pool cue collectors think is the best, those "best" cues never see chalk or have any table time.... (yes yes I know that there a few out there but come on lets take any international tournament and see what do the best play with...) As a pool player I like to experiment with different cues and different specs and features, only this way I'll know what is the best for me!!! all my cues are cues that I play with, I will not spend money on a piece of wood that will rot in a storage....
Right now I can tell you that for me a 18.5oz Lucasi is much better then a 20oz Szamboti....
And you know what, I will love to test a phenolic cored pool cue, I may like it and I may not but I will only know after I gave it a fair chance!!! and by that I mean more then "test hit only", I mean 6 months of playing with a cue at least 10 hours a week.

I agreed that you never will know....very high probability...However, most inventor start with an idea...if the idea is to make a better playing cue...if will first have to understand what that is..before you invent a cue to do just that.

WRONG!!!
Nobody can tell me which cue is better, only I can tell which cue is better for me!!! same goes to a cue maker, it a certain cue maker think that the best cue should feel and hit in a certain way and he explores different construction to get there then there is nothing wrong with it and he shouldn't reverse engineer what others have done first if he is looking for something else...

Well...it's a pool cue...what there's to pioneer? Well...maybe since I'm going to be the first to build an A.I cue..that tell me how to make the shot. LOL!!!

Just a pool cue?
here are some example for pioneering pool cues:
1. Half Splice - Burton Spain
2. Piloted Joint - Herman Rambow
3. Leather tip - Captain Minguard (Perfected the tip)
4. Layered tips - Moori ????
5. Lower deflection shafts - Predator

and list can go on.... these are just examples of people that tried things differently and revolutionized the pool cue industry...

Maybe the next one will be phenolic cored cues...

Note:
I did not mean to offend any cue collector, cue builder or pool player here or on any other post that I've made before or will do in the past. I'm just giving my opinion and that's it! nothing more and nothing less....
I have a deep respect to anyone who crafts pool cues and for those who collects those masterpieces (each for his/her own reasons).

Let me end this by quoting a famous Monty Python:
"Look! I'm the bloody pope, I am! May not know much about art, but I know what I like! "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsZOTf0-NDw

 

[dave sutton]

"I have not failed 700 times. I have not failed once. I have
succeeded in proving that those 700 ways will not work. When I have
eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will
work." Thomas Edison.




Not one of them but someone else.

Edison's Menlo Park laboratory occupied two city blocks. Edison said he wanted the lab to have "a stock of almost every conceivable material". A newspaper article printed in 1887 reveals the seriousness of his claim, stating the lab contained "eight thousand kinds of chemicals, every kind of screw made, every size of needle, every kind of cord or wire, hair of humans, horses, hogs, cows, rabbits, goats, minx, camels ...silk in every texture, cocoons, various kinds of hoofs, shark's teeth, deer horns, tortoise shell ...cork, resin, varnish and oil, ostrich feathers, a peacock's tail, jet, amber, rubber, all ores ..." and the list goes on.

Is that crazy enuf? :smile:

and not one of them was made into a pool cue... thanks for posting

i wonder how edison custom cues played

 

[JoeyInCali]

What exactly does "increase the Resonance" mean ? Are you saying the cue is louder ? Are you saying that some frequencies are amplified (lower or higher or midrange ?) ? The sound decays slower ? I'm curious about what you have measured.

Dave

So really what we need is a material that is more stable than wood.
Probably harder. Does not expand and contract like wood.
Pings better than wood.
Glues well and has some flex.
Is not metal or plastic.
Hmmmmm....

 

[dave sutton]

Good Morning Dave, I have taken a day to think of a response to your post since it does involve me. Dave, I have helped you in any way possible since I have met you on this forum. We have had disagreements in the past and laughed about it later. However, to date I thought you had integrity and that you were a forward thinker with an open mind. But I was obviously incorrect and I am also disappointed because I thought you were a much more than you are.

Dave all I can say is, if you don't stand for something, you will continue to fall for anything that comes you way, and you are much more than that.

Take care Dave

griag. i too believe we are friends. you have helped me i agree. what does my "integrity" have to do with this conversation. we can agree to disagree at times and im ok with that.

however this arguement about INTEGRITY is makes no sense sorry pal it holds no water. questioning someones integrity bc we disagree is pretty sad. IMO

all i mean is i dont think the feel pf phenolic is better then wood. i agree with joey.

if anyone doesnt think resonance or feedback is not part of the hit or feel of a cue is wrong. as stated i think a break cue would be great but a player no thanks

my friend has this cue http://www.billiardwarehouse.com/cues/pechauer/pechauer_pool_cue_j09.htm

it says black maple or black linen wrap but it isnt. it is phenolic. plays ok. very stiff and zero feedback. very dead.

IMo a core would be much worse

 

[DaveK]

...Joey~Used to sell speakers, hated Bose and loved JBL~

Cool ! Me too, fwiw. My main speakers are a one-owner (me) set of 4311s :thumbup: Sorry for the thread drift :embarrassed2:

Dave

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

hi,

I woulk like to know if any cuemaker tryed cored forearm with natural phenolic rod and your results.
I used natural phenolic material for ferrules, tips, collars, joint inserts but never tried cored forearm.

thanks??

Thanks for the good question.

Good Cuemaking,

 

[Cuemaster98]

I'm a pool player! not a banger, a player! I am not a cue builder!!
I don't care what pool cue collectors think is the best, those "best" cues never see chalk or have any table time.... (yes yes I know that there a few out there but come on lets take any international tournament and see what do the best play with...) As a pool player I like to experiment with different cues and different specs and features, only this way I'll know what is the best for me!!! all my cues are cues that I play with, I will not spend money on a piece of wood that will rot in a storage....
Right now I can tell you that for me a 18.5oz Lucasi is much better then a 20oz Szamboti....
And you know what, I will love to test a phenolic cored pool cue, I may like it and I may not but I will only know after I gave it a fair chance!!! and by that I mean more then "test hit only", I mean 6 months of playing with a cue at least 10 hours a week.

Agreed...whatever works for you. My point was if the person doesn't play pool they would not know what will play better. If you're a player..you will know if the phenolic core will play better than other cues that you tried without it.

WRONG!!!
Nobody can tell me which cue is better, only I can tell which cue is better for me!!! same goes to a cue maker, it a certain cue maker think that the best cue should feel and hit in a certain way and he explores different construction to get there then there is nothing wrong with it and he shouldn't reverse engineer what others have done first if he is looking for something else...

Agreed, never said you can't or should try different construction...it could be innovative or it could just be different. Btw, my cue is the best playing cue out there to me. .


Maybe the next one will be phenolic cored cues...

The probability is there...I will have to find out for myself!! Convincing the buyers is another challenge in itself...but with big marketing $$$ it will help.


Note:
I did not mean to offend any cue collector, cue builder or pool player here or on any other post that I've made before or will do in the past. I'm just giving my opinion and that's it! nothing more and nothing less....
I have a deep respect to anyone who crafts pool cues and for those who collects those masterpieces (each for his/her own reasons).

I did not read anything on this thread that was offensive to anyone from you! I thought the post you made has some great points and I responded with my view on it.

 

[spliced]

So really what we need is a material that is more stable than wood.
Probably harder. Does not expand and contract like wood.
Pings better than wood.
Glues well and has some flex.
Is not metal or plastic.
Hmmmmm....

hmmm, bone?

 

[JoeyInCali]

hmmm, bone?

ding ding ding

 

[shankster8]

It sounds to me like Manwon's phenolic coring technique is mainly targeting a wooden cue's tendency to move. That certainly is a worthwhile pursuit - how many older cues no longer roll true - that is sad! It seems some cuemakers are attacking Manwon's ideas, but are arguing trivially and irrelevantly. They imply Manwon's use of phenolic will destroy the harmonics of the cue - really????????? Phenolic is now a common cue component from one end to the other of the cue - ferrules, joints, and butt ends. So I guess we are to believe that all such cues have no feedback?

I am happy with the feedback I get from my phenolic jointed/ended cues. With a hard tip and light weightbolt I can sting my grip hand, and make my cue "ping". Or, I can add more weight and soften the tip and get a mellow hit. I can adjust the feedback easily by simply changing weight and tip hardness, regardless of the phenolic components.

I believe that phenolic propagates sound more slowly than wood, and thus I guess it could modify a cue's sound/feedback, but Manwon's method merely involves implanting short longitudinal phenolic tubes, cored with wood. If these are fit into the cue but tightly, the butt remains practically solid wood with a few short cylinders of phenolic enclosed. Under that circumstance I see no reason why sound waves shouldn't propagate the length of the cue without meaningful interference. Certainly, such tubes would offer insignificant interference with sound propagation in comparison to a solid phenolic joint which many cues have today, and which still have good feedback.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, just sharing my experience/opinion.

 

[manwon]

It sounds to me like Manwon's phenolic coring technique is mainly targeting a wooden cue's tendency to move. That certainly is a worthwhile pursuit - how many older cues no longer roll true - that is sad! It seems some cuemakers are attacking Manwon's ideas, but are arguing trivially and irrelevantly. They imply Manwon's use of phenolic will destroy the harmonics of the cue - really????????? Phenolic is now a common cue component from one end to the other of the cue - ferrules, joints, and butt ends. So I guess we are to believe that all such cues have no feedback?

I am happy with the feedback I get from my phenolic jointed/ended cues. With a hard tip and light weightbolt I can sting my grip hand, and make my cue "ping". Or, I can add more weight and soften the tip and get a mellow hit. I can adjust the feedback easily by simply changing weight and tip hardness, regardless of the phenolic components.

I believe that phenolic propagates sound more slowly than wood, and thus I guess it could modify a cue's sound/feedback, but Manwon's method merely involves implanting short longitudinal phenolic tubes, cored with wood. If these are fit into the cue but tightly, the butt remains practically solid wood with a few short cylinders of phenolic enclosed. Under that circumstance I see no reason why sound waves shouldn't propagate the length of the cue without meaningful interference. Certainly, such tubes would offer insignificant interference with sound propagation in comparison to a solid phenolic joint which many cues have today, and which still have good feedback.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, just sharing my experience/opinion.

Thanks for your support, however, it is going fall upon deaf ears. Some people are to rigid and close minded to think that a No body such as myself can think of anything useful!!!!!!!!!:thumbup:

LIKE I SAID EARLIER TODAY I LAUGH AT THEIR SUPERIOR INTELLECT.:rotflmao1: :lol: :rotflmao: :lmao: :nanner:

Thanks for your thought's, and remember the truth is always at arms length all anyone has to do and open their eyes so that they can see it.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Tried it.
Built a cue with it too.

 

[spliced]

ding ding ding

Yay! Do i win a free cue?

 

[manwon]

Tried it.
Built a cue with it too.

Joey, please post some photo's that show the Phenolic Core. The cue in your picture dosen't show anything at all.

Here are some photo's of a Old Brunswick blank that I am building that is cored 4 1/2 inches inside the handle with a .750 od Phenolic Tube. The tubes inside diameter is .623 and this tube has Maple dowel used for a core inside the tube. The Maple dowel is threaded 3/8-16 six inches back from the begining of the tube. All sections of the cue butt will be cored and positioned on the tube.











Joey, show us some photo's like these that will allow us to see how and what you did.

Thanks Joey!!:smile:

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey, show us some photo's like these that will allow us to see how and what you did.
The photo shows a tan garolite linen phenolic SLEEVE.
1 inch long on the maple front dowel and the same length going into the handle core.
Plenty of ways to skin a cat.
Denali and Bill Hagan? No A-joint.
Edwin Reyes? Threaded ( opposite direction ) phen short rod then bored and threaded.
Some use biscuits, fingerjoints, etc.
PRedator P2 had phen sleeve.
Mezz, carbon fiber tube, I believe.
Layani, conical phenolic and screw.
Lambros, conical wood?
More power to your original configuration.

 

[manwon]

Joey, show us some photo's like these that will allow us to see how and what you did.
The photo shows a tan garolite linen phenolic SLEEVE.
1 inch long on the maple front dowel and the same length going into the handle core.
Plenty of ways to skin a cat.
Denali and Bill Hagan? No A-joint.
Edwin Reyes? Threaded ( opposite direction ) phen short rod then bored and threaded.
Some use biscuits, fingerjoints, etc.
PRedator P2 had phen sleeve.
Mezz, carbon fiber tube, I believe.
Layani, conical phenolic and screw.
Lambros, conical wood?
More power to your original configuration.

I would really like to see some better photo's that show the design, do you have any.

Thanks Craig

 

[KJ Cues]

Young man, what's all this talk about 'thinking outside of the box' and using untraditional materials in cue construction?
Why,...that's just crazy-talk and borders on anarchy. This will not be tolerated.
It goes against all that we as Americans, hold to be true and self-evident. How dare you question the wisdom of our forefathers and even most of your peers. That 'box' is there for a reason and you WILL NOT deviate from it. It's just too risky and threatens our very security. You will speak of this no more. You know... those young hippies of the Artist Community in San Fransisco back in the 60's used to talk like that and look what happened to them. Is that what you want?

Hence forth, you will use only accepted materials and construction methods. You WILL put all of your ring-work in line. Your points will be no longer that 6" and you will only use traditional colored veneers. Should you disagree with any of this, you will be severely 'bashed' by your peers in a public forum and sent to your room without your supper. There will be no Conan O'Brien either until you can convince your mother & I that you have decided to think like everyone else.
We can't have you upsetting the delicate relationship we have with the all-powerful collectors and their money, that we depend on for our very existence. No sir, we won't have any of it.

Don't forget for one second young man that Gitmo is still in use and your mother & I are friends with the Cheneys. If for whatever reason that doesn't work-out, there's always military school. Now go to your room and think about what I've just said.

Really......think about it.

I probably shouldn't have posted in this thread; some of the things I've read are a little disturbing. But, I just came from the shop after shooting finish on 9 shafts and felt like writing. Sorry, carry on.