Corey's done it again, this time with 8b.

The Saw

Juicy Pop in 2016!
Silver Member
If someone learns to rack the balls such that they can be manipulated then the rest of us need to pay attention. Look, Corey spends time paying attention to the physics of the game in relationship to his skill set. The rest of us don't have his pool intellect. Here's a look at some past champions and what they did to change their respective game.

Willie Hoppe: Played Balkline Billiards so perfect and dominated for a decade that they changed the game to 3 Cushion so everyone else could have a chance.

Johnny Archer: Broke in Nine Ball so well from the side rail that he was a shoo in to the finals of almost every tournament in the 90's. Where did they rack the balls and break from in the last Mosconi Cup?

Shane Van Boening: Magic Rack in 10 Ball anyone…….Forget about it.

Harold Worst: Won the 3 Cushion World Championship 1950's in Buenos Ares in front of 30,000 spectators that caused a riot. Juan and Eva Peron barred him from returning. Harold was also barred from the ring nine ball games in Johnson City cause he played to good. He was relegated to the sidelines and could be hired out by anyone to shoot a tough shot by any player in that ring game.

Machine Lou Butera: Ran 125 and out in 14.1 in 22 minutes. That wasn't fair, I didn't get any good pool watching for my $5 admission. He definitely should be barred.

So down through the years players have emerged that were just too good and too smart. I I say bar them from ever playing pool again and as a final measure take them behind the barn and beat them silly. iI's just not fair for them to be so smart and play so well.

Not to mention when Corey first took off and was slaughtering everyone with the soft break playing 9ball.... They tried rack the 9 on the spot, so many balls had to hit a rail, break from the box, so many balls had to go past the side pocket, etc.... Worldwide, for over a year they changed the rules about the break almost every single tournament. And other pro players were the driving force behind all of that, not the promoters themselves. Those pro's practiced the new break in earnest, Corey would find out at the players meeting and have it figured out by game time, and they still couldn't beat him. Genius is genius.
 

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
I say bar them from ever playing pool again and as a final measure take them behind the barn and beat them silly. iI's just not fair for them to be so smart and play so well.

It took 118 posts, but someone's finally making sense in this thread!
 

Don Owen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pattern racking

The BCAPL rules state that the two corner balls must be from different groups and the eight must be in the middle of the row of three and all other balls are to be "placed at random". That means if the racker intentionally places any of the other balls in any position he has violated the rule.

Most eight ball players violate this rule by trying to arrange the balls in a balanced pattern.

Interesting!

Don
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The BCAPL rules state that the two corner balls must be from different groups and the eight must be in the middle of the row of three and all other balls are to be "placed at random". That means if the racker intentionally places any of the other balls in any position he has violated the rule.

Most eight ball players violate this rule by trying to arrange the balls in a balanced pattern.

Interesting!

Don

If you look in the back of the BCAPL rules, the first applied ruling for 8-ball says that the common alternating pattern is legal.
 

fathomblue

Rusty Shackleford
Silver Member
Corey would most likely just use a different, or maybe even a few different patterns, and alternate between them. It's not like Corey only has one 8 ball rack pattern.... That is a train Ken, and no one for that matter, can stop.

14-15 years ago I had been playing nothing but one pocket for months and had a 9ball game set up the next day for decent money. I was practicing the break and kept losing control of the cue ball. Corey comes in and I ask him to show me a few slow to medium speed breaks. He starts in showing me some 9 ball breaks, then he goes into the rack and gaps, then 10ball and gaps, then the full rack... Someone finally walks up and starts nosing in, Corey, as usual, quits talking and sits down. After the guy leaves Corey tells me that in 2, maybe three more, sessions just like that he could teach me everything he knows about the rack and break. Sick thing about that is that first lesson was over 2-1/2 hours long. And that was 15 years ago.....

Aha.

Which leads me to my point. Let's pretend that Corey, or whoever, has a specific break method for any random pattern of racked balls you put out there.

Sounds crazy, as in 8B, you have 15 balls. But, maybe it's not that difficult. You immediately have "constants". The 8B always goes in the middle. You always have a solid on one back corner. A stripe on the other. Whether it's on one side or the other may or may not be relevant. That could be addressed by simply breaking from one side as opposed to the other.

That leaves 12 slots that could be "random". However, it's only split up between 2 ball groups. Now, I'm not a mathematician, but I suppose there could be 1000 possible patterns there. Maybe more. Probably more. I don't know. Many of them would be 98% identical, tho, just by switching two balls.

For the sake of argument, I think one could somewhat safely assume that there would be a decent amount of "overlap". As in, one particular break would work very well for multiple, multiple patterns, as again.....those patterns might be 98% identical.

So, if the pro identifies 10 different breaks.....which could easily be 20, using the same break, except it's on the other side of the long string.... It's probably not too difficult to remember for that intelligent, dedicated pro. Might not be overly difficult for even a halfway sharp player.

What would folks do, if this happened? He's not manipulating the rack at all. He's taking the existing rules and solved the riddle.

Will you attempt to punish him for card counting....er, ball counting?

If a player has that figured out, he (or she) will be able to throw them in a rack and you'll NEVER know if it's an intended pattern or not.

So, is it still wrong, even though you can't prove it? And you have no idea if it's even going on? What if a player ordered you to rack the balls, then pointed out a pattern, and proved that he could break them in a way to benefit himself and snooker the opponent? Would you applaud him or villify him?

Would you say it's ok for the pro to solve EVERY pattern, as opposed to....say, just two of them? Because that's like saying that it's ok to cheat completely, but not to just cheat a lil.

Is this jealousy because Corey figured something out and others didn't?

Or is this an example of a morality play? Because there's very little room for morality in this game. Definitely no room for compassion or sympathy.

I applaud his intelligence.

And if I saw Corey pattern racking against me, would I say anything about it? Nope. I've watched several players pattern rack on me and never said a peep. I've observed how and where they're breaking and tried to see if I could make it work for me.
 
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chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
Aha.

Which leads me to my point. Let's pretend that Corey, or whoever, has a specific break method for any random pattern of racked balls you put out there.

Sounds crazy, as in 8B, you have 15 balls. But, maybe it's not that difficult. You immediately have "constants". The 8B always goes in the middle. You always have a solid on one back corner. A stripe on the other. Whether it's on one side or the other may or may not be relevant. That could be addressed by simply breaking from one side as opposed to the other.

That leaves 12 slots that could be "random". However, it's only split up between 2 ball groups. Now, I'm not a mathematician, but I suppose there could be 1000 possible patterns there. Maybe more. Probably more. I don't know. Many of them would be 98% identical, tho, just by switching two balls.

For the sake of argument, I think one could somewhat safely assume that there would be a decent amount of "overlap". As in, one particular break would work very well for multiple, multiple patterns, as again.....those patterns might be 98% identical.

So, if the pro identifies 10 different breaks.....which could easily be 20, using the same break, except it's on the other side of the long string.... It's probably not too difficult to remember for that intelligent, dedicated pro. Might not be overly difficult for even a halfway sharp player.

What would folks do, if this happened? He's not manipulating the rack at all. He's taking the existing rules and solved the riddle.

Will you attempt to punish him for card counting....er, ball counting?

If a player has that figured out, he (or she) will be able to throw them in a rack and you'll NEVER know if it's an intended pattern or not.

So, is it still wrong, even though you can't prove it? And you have no idea if it's even going on? What if a player ordered you to rack the balls, then pointed out a pattern, and proved that he could break them in a way to benefit himself and snooker the opponent? Would you applaud him or villify him?

Would you say it's ok for the pro to solve EVERY pattern, as opposed to....say, just two of them? Because that's like saying that it's ok to cheat completely, but not to just cheat a lil.

Is this jealousy because Corey figured something out and others didn't?

Or is this an example of a morality play? Because there's very little room for morality in this game. Definitely no room for compassion or sympathy.

I applaud his intelligence.

And if I saw Corey pattern racking against me, would I say anything about it? Nope. I've watched several players pattern rack on me and never said a peep. I've observed how and where they're breaking and tried to see if I could make it work for me.

That is totally different than pattern racking.

That IS like card counting, within the rules of the game, as it is figuring the percentages from the info on the table that all players have rightful access to. Go for it, Corey, but stop stacking the deck!

Jeff Livingston
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
In your hypothetical example...

Say Corey memorizes like 10 possible useful patterns/layouts,
and he notices that the current rack happened to fall into one of those patterns...

Is it wrong for him to 'customize' his break to take advantage of this pattern?
Nope, it's fine. He didn't pattern rack and you can break from wherever you want.

But later you say:
If a player has that figured out, he (or she) will be able to throw them in a rack
and you'll NEVER know if it's an intended pattern or not.
So, is it still wrong, even though you can't prove it?


What kind of question is that?
If you can't prove I stole your car, is it still wrong for me to steal it?
If you never caught your wife cheating, was it still wrong for her to cheat?
Catching someone and/or proving it, has nothing to do with whether an action is wrong or not.

That being said, "wrong" is a word I'd use for something that feels kind of morally
or ethically shitty to do.

Some rules just feel so minor and silly that I can't use the word "wrong"
or "cheating" with a straight face. Like "he cheated! he shot without his foot on the floor!"
Not quite the same as "he cheated! he marked an extra game on the wire while my back was turned!"

If you feel the same way about pattern racking I can't really argue with that.
But I personally would not feel OK with going through an entire tournament
intentionally breaking a rule. That feels wrong to me.
Considering Corey went on to win the whole thing, it might be that pattern racking
is a little more serious than shooting without a foot on the floor.
 

RioSevario

Rivers
Silver Member
I consistently use the same pattern of racking. I do this out of habit. Does that mean that I am cheating because I always use the same pattern? I rack according to the rules of eight ball in the center and one of each in the bottom corners. The other balls aren't placed at random because they are intentionally placed solid-stripe-solid and so on.

This rule simply applies to the sportsmanship I think.

As far as what people want to watch on TV, no one wants to watch a pitchers duel in baseball, no one wants to see a defensive stalemate in football. They want to see touchdown passes of 80 yards and home runs hit a mile. Even golf has evolved to a level of being something that people are ok with watching because the guys bomb it out there and stick it close to the pin. There is a reason that one pocket and straight pool matches aren't the most watched thing on TV.
 

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
I consistently use the same pattern of racking. I do this out of habit. Does that mean that I am cheating because I always use the same pattern? I rack according to the rules of eight ball in the center and one of each in the bottom corners. The other balls aren't placed at random because they are intentionally placed solid-stripe-solid and so on.

This rule simply applies to the sportsmanship I think.

Of course it doesn't mean you are cheating. But you you are violating the rule. Obviously, cheating is about knowingly violating a rule to gain and unfair advantage. Cheating is about intent.

We have all probably been guilty of violating the rule at one time or another, not necessarily in order to cheat. In league a lot of guys do exactly what you are talking about, just trying to spread the stripes and solids around in the rack. I've purposely switched one ball for another when a particular ball won't freeze up. I'm not trying to cheat my opponent, I'm just trying to get a decent rack. I've done the same thing even when racking for my opponent, to give him a good rack.
 

dabarbr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well when Corey starts breaking using the bridge then we should all worry. Oh wait, I think he's done that already.
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
I consistently use the same pattern of racking. I do this out of habit. Does that mean that I am cheating because I always use the same pattern? I rack according to the rules of eight ball in the center and one of each in the bottom corners. The other balls aren't placed at random because they are intentionally placed solid-stripe-solid and so on.

Of course it doesn't mean you are cheating. But you you are violating the rule.

There is actually an exception in the rulebook that allows for alternating solid-stripe-solid.
So he's not breaking any rules.

I don't like this rule though because I think it's based on an incorrect understanding of the break.
And it undercuts the pattern racking rule by making a pointless exception.

The balls don't spread out in a perfect little starburst all moving the same speed and distance.
When you break them hard, one ball might move 20 feet and another might move 20 inches.
When the dust settles, what you get will not be solid-stripe-solid-stripe spread evenly
across the table. It's more or less random.

What corey did is pay attention to where balls end up AFTER the break,
and then figure out a pattern based on that.
It's useless to figure out a pattern based on their position BEFORE the break.
 

Magog30

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The solution is quite simple. Balls should alternate between solid and stripe except for one 2 ball cluster of each suit. One cluster is in the top and second row and the other in the bottom center. If top cluster is on the right then the bottom one is on the center left. This is how a rack looks like in English 8 ball and Chinese 8 ball.

rack.jpg
 

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
There is actually an exception in the rulebook that allows for alternating solid-stripe-solid.
So he's not breaking any rules.

Yes, I know. I posted the text to that rule and the applied ruling exception a few pages ago. I'm not sure if the poster was in violation of this exception because the rule allows you to alternate around the outside of the rack only, and I don't notice he specified this. I read him to mean he alternated balls (stripe/solid) across the rows which would not fall under the exception.
 
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SpotMeee

New member
That leaves 12 slots that could be "random". However, it's only split up between 2 ball groups. Now, I'm not a mathematician, but I suppose there could be 1000 possible patterns there. Maybe more. Probably more. I don't know. Many of them would be 98% identical, tho, just by switching two balls.

I am a mathematician. Which I am sure contributes to my love of pool.

2 to the power of 12 = 4096 "different" layouts.

111111000000
111110000001
111100000011...
101010101010...
000000111111

This is also how we measure password complexity btw. Alphabet size to the power of password length.

If you don't believe me start with the math for 3 balls and work your way up to 12. ;)
 

fathomblue

Rusty Shackleford
Silver Member
Oh, I absolutely believe you. I knew it wouldn't be 50,000 or a million. I figured it would be just a few thousand.

Now, do you have an equation which shows how many are at least 83% like other patterns? I'm not kidding. If you have 12 balls that can legally be placed in a random pattern.....by swapping two of them....that should mean that it's 83% identical to the original. That should knock the 4,096 down a bit.

Btw, regarding to shooting with both feet off the floor....someone said they scoffed at that rule. Who's to say that others like myself don't scoff at rules against pattern racking? I think if everyone read "the rule book", we'd each find 1-2 things that we chuckle at, say that are just goofy, and probably shouldn't be there.

Would you still laugh, if someone shot the money ball in to win the set against you, and you saw camera footage later showing both feet of your opponent dangling upon tip contact....would you scoff at the rule then?

If you say yes, then you see my point. Because I think it's silly to have a pattern racking rule. Let's reward study and creativity.

If you say no, then you've condoned the the player cheating, which puts you in the same boat as I am in other people's eyes from this thread.

FWIW, I'm also the same guy who thinks using steroids is cheating. The use of a spitball or emery board is plain ole ingenuity and part of the fabric of the game. Yes, I suppose I'm a hypocrite. Some things just feel right, even if they're "wrong". Some things feel wrong. To me, shouting "cheater" to a guy that worked his butt off to figure out racks feels "wrong". And even if he was simply told this by a fellow player, kudos to him for listening and trying it. We all can't invent the wheel. But, we can see our neighbor using one.

Another btw, anyone who doesn't appreciate a great pitcher's battle or defensive struggle, probably isn't a true fan anyway.

We've had Texas Express, build-the-games-so-you-can-run-out-all-the-time (I still can't, lol).....for 30 years now, and pool is non-existent on TV.

Why are we trying to cater to everyone but the dedicated players anymore?
 

SpotMeee

New member
Now, do you have an equation which shows how many are at least 83% like other patterns? I'm not kidding. If you have 12 balls that can legally be placed in a random pattern.....by swapping two of them....that should mean that it's 83% identical to the original. That should knock the 4,096 down a bit.

Ok you got me... I'm a computer guy, not a mathematician.

The answer to that one is easy though... *all* of the patterns have an equivalent 83% pattern.

I would calculate that as having 10 different available positions... so 1024... in that case your first guess was pretty close!
 

fathomblue

Rusty Shackleford
Silver Member
Ok you got me... I'm a computer guy, not a mathematician.

The answer to that one is easy though... *all* of the patterns have an equivalent 83% pattern.

I would calculate that as having 10 different available positions... so 1024... in that case your first guess was pretty close!

I figured that I was in the ballpark. ;)
 
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