Coring dowel clearance ?

JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Got a new lathe and looks like .005" clearance for the dowel is plenty.
.700" hole and .695" dowel. I've tried .697" and it fit snug but still doable.
I needed .008" in the old lathe.
 
Why would the lathe have anything to do with core/hole tolerance fit?

IMO, a snug fit tends to work best, but you need valleys & grooves length & cross ways along the core to prevent the glue from being wiped away as you insert the core. Leaving a loose fit allows you to keep more glue on the core, but defeats the purpose of marrying the two woods to make one. .005" is a nice fit I think. leaves .0025" slop room for the glue.
 
qbilder said:
Why would the lathe have anything to do with core/hole tolerance fit?

IMO, a snug fit tends to work best, but you need valleys & grooves length & cross ways along the core to prevent the glue from being wiped away as you insert the core. Leaving a loose fit allows you to keep more glue on the core, but defeats the purpose of marrying the two woods to make one. .005" is a nice fit I think. leaves .0025" slop room for the glue.
Click to expand...

i was wondering that too crispy ;)
too snug, you push off the glue
too loose, hope & pray
 
JoeyInCali said:
Got a new lathe and looks like .005" clearance for the dowel is plenty.
.700" hole and .695" dowel. I've tried .697" and it fit snug but still doable.
I needed .008" in the old lathe.
Click to expand...

Joey,

What is your new lathe?

I core with a .750 gun drill and turn my 1" x 30" dowels to .750 dead straight and consistent on dimension from end to end.

I put my dowel between centers in my wood lathe and sand 4" from one end with 100 grit and then test fit. When that fits, I sand the next 4" and so on. After it fits I sand the dowel north and south before groove filing so it goes in and out smooth without friction zones. By hand sanding and hand fitting the interference fit it is more of a feel thing than a micrometer reading for me.

To answer your question my sanded dowel observation is between .742 to .745 but I rely on the way it feels going through.

Jmo,

Rick
 
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scdiveteam said:
Joey,

What is your new lathe?

I core with a .750 gun drill and turn my 1" x 30" dowels to .750 dead straight and consistent on dimension from end to end.

I put my dowel between centers in my wood lathe and sand 4" from one end with 100 grit and then test fit. When that fits, I sand the next 4" and so on. After it fits I sand the dowel north and south before groove filing so it goes in and out smooth without friction zones. By hand sanding and hand fitting the interference fit it is more of a feel thing than a micrometer reading for me.

To answer your question my sanded dowel observation is between .742 to .745 but I rely on the way it feels going through.

Jmo,

Rick
Click to expand...

I thought your clearance was .013".
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3381999&postcount=5
Eisen 12 by 36.
My handle core drill is .883. .750 is too small for handles for my liking .
 
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BHQ said:

i was wondering that too crispy ;)
too snug, you push off the glue
too loose, hope & pray
Click to expand...

And what is your clearance of choice ? :grin-square:
I can actually just sand the clearance with 220 real fast now.
.700 hole, .700 dowel. Spin sand. Groove every inch.
4 verticals.
Too tight , I think has a risk of rattling later on.
I don't use GG glue anymore fwiw.
Done.
 
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I drill with a .750 gun drill. I turn the full length coring dowel to about .740. The center always is a little fat because of tool push off. Then I sand the dowel for a nice slip fit with 100 paper. It ends up about .735 to .740 over all. I also cut a glue groove about every inch with the corner of a big file while spinning the dowel.

I use GG and never wet anything like some people do. I run a big bead of GG down the dowel and rub it in with a rubber glove then squirt in a big glob of GG in to the piece I am sliding on... Twist the piece as you slide it down the dowel and push the excess GG out. Clean it up with a paper towel and wait for the foam to appear at the ends.

Never had a problem doing it this way.

Kim
 
JoeyInCali said:
I thought your clearance was .013".
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3381999&postcount=5
Eisen 12 by 36.
Click to expand...

Joey,

Processes get revised in my procedural manual over time. 4 years ago I was at those numbers.

At that time I was turning my dowels with a two fluke bow tie router horizontal in my tool post. Today I turn my 1" dowels to .750 with a six fluke wing cutter on my CNC then sand the interference fit.

5 years ago I did fit test dowels down to .720 and cut them in cross section for observation.

Gorilla Glue before the water spritz is like honey and expands to gap fill so going down another .0025 per side in the annulus still produces a very hard cured gap fill. Even at .720 which was over the limit of the recommended expansion ratio the glue was very hard in the expanded state.

The devil is always in the details.

With my current method the layer of glue between my dowel and the cored billet in what I perceive as optimum because of hand fitting IMO.

Cue making is all about the control of the tolerances and keeping all tolerances as close as possible with repeatability.

I am sure that 4 years from now I will tighten up a few more procedure details and will do that until I shix the bed. I made 2 major assembly changes to my procedure this year alone.

As an objectivist and futurist I will never be done making slight incremental improvement to my cues. I know you and others here feel that way too.

Rick
 
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scdiveteam said:
Joey,

Processes get revised in my procedural manual over time. 4 years ago I was at those numbers.

At that time I was turning my dowels with a two fluke bow tie router horizontal in my tool post. Today I turn my 1" dowels to .750 with a six fluke wing cutter on my CNC then sand the interference fit.

5 years ago I did fit test dowels down to .720 and cut them in cross section for observation.

Gorilla Glue before the water spritz is like honey and expands to gap fill so going down another .0025 per side in the annulus still produces a very hard cured gap fill. Even at .720 which was over the limit of the recommended expansion ratio the glue was very hard in the expanded state.

The devil is always in the details.

With my current method the layer of glue between my dowel and the cored billet in what I perceive as optimum because of hand fitting IMO.

Cue making is all about the control of the tolerances and keeping all tolerances as close as possible with repeatability.

I am sure that 4 years from now I will tighten up a few more procedure details and will do that until I shix the bed. I made 2 major assembly changes to my procedure this year alone.

As an objectivist and futurist I will never be done making slight incremental improvement to my cues. I know you and others here feel that way too.

Rick
Click to expand...


Not to nit pick Rick but you have a habit of saying "fluke" when describing a milling cutter. The proper terminology would be "flute". Not a biggie just thought I would mention it.:grin:
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourcei...e=UTF-8#q=flutes+of+milling+cutter+definition
 
Sounds to me Joey the new lathe is better aligned for the gun drilling. ie more consistent with less wear in the bedways.
Great though that you are getting better results.
Neil
 
scdiveteam said:
Joey,

Processes get revised in my procedural manual over time. 4 years ago I was at those numbers.

At that time I was turning my dowels with a two fluke bow tie router horizontal in my tool post. Today I turn my 1" dowels to .750 with a six fluke wing cutter on my CNC then sand the interference fit.

5 years ago I did fit test dowels down to .720 and cut them in cross section for observation.

Gorilla Glue before the water spritz is like honey and expands to gap fill so going down another .0025 per side in the annulus still produces a very hard cured gap fill. Even at .720 which was over the limit of the recommended expansion ratio the glue was very hard in the expanded state.

The devil is always in the details.

With my current method the layer of glue between my dowel and the cored billet in what I perceive as optimum because of hand fitting IMO.

Cue making is all about the control of the tolerances and keeping all tolerances as close as possible with repeatability.

I am sure that 4 years from now I will tighten up a few more procedure details and will do that until I shix the bed. I made 2 major assembly changes to my procedure this year alone.

As an objectivist and futurist I will never be done making slight incremental improvement to my cues. I know you and others here feel that way too.

Rick
Click to expand...

Speaking of details, there is one big reason you don't want your drill to be .750.
Nickle and brass rings have .750 ID . They will be too lose when you sand that dowel down to .745" or less.
That's why first gun drill was .758". That way I could keep the dowel at .750" or more . And just machine it down to .750" to fit the rings . Or phen tubes with .750"
.750" for handle is way too small for my liking . At .750" , if your handle is some burl wood and you bore it for the .750" tenon, you have no maple wall.
 
JoeyInCali said:
And what is your clearance of choice ? :grin-square:
I can actually just sand the clearance with 220 real fast now.
.700 hole, .700 dowel. Spin sand. Groove every inch.
4 verticals.
Too tight , I think has a risk of rattling later on.
I don't use GG glue anymore fwiw.
Done.
Click to expand...
after getting a couple cores stuck half way in,
i learned my lesson.:(, more clearance needed for GG.

.008" under my hole size
grooves every inch and
4 grooves lengthwise
 
So back to my question, what does tolerance have to do with lathe? :scratchhead: The hole made with a gun drill should be the same regardless of the lathe, and a core cut between centers should be the same regardless of lathe. I guess if the ways are sloppy enough, the tolerance of the core could be inconsistent from end to end, and/or have hi or lo spots along its length. Is that what the problem was with the old lathe?
 
qbilder said:
So back to my question, what does tolerance have to do with lathe? :scratchhead: The hole made with a gun drill should be the same regardless of the lathe, and a core cut between centers should be the same regardless of lathe. I guess if the ways are sloppy enough, the tolerance of the core could be inconsistent from end to end, and/or have hi or lo spots along its length. Is that what the problem was with the old lathe?
Click to expand...

The old lathe didn't drill quite as straight .
 
:thumbup:
JoeyInCali said:
Speaking of details, there is one big reason you don't want your drill to be .750.
Nickle and brass rings have .750 ID . They will be too lose when you sand that dowel down to .745" or less.
That's why first gun drill was .758". That way I could keep the dowel at .750" or more . And just machine it down to .750" to fit the rings . Or phen tubes with .750"
.750" for handle is way too small for my liking . At .750" , if your handle is some burl wood and you bore it for the .750" tenon, you have no maple wall.
Click to expand...

Joey,

You don't miss a trick.

I cut my silver rings on the CNC and I drill all my ring billets with my best friend, the 47/64 drill bit and I hand sand the IDs of every cut off stitch ring to get a tight fit so all integrated ring alignment is assured a correct radial line up with no slop.

I don't purchase or use any tube either as it is nominal sizing. I prefer to make everything from rod material so I can bore or drill under size and sand the ID to fit.:thumbup:

Rick
 
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BHQ said:
after getting a couple cores stuck half way in,
i learned my lesson.:(, more clearance needed for GG.

.008" under my hole size
grooves every inch and
4 grooves lengthwise
Click to expand...

I got 2 stuck while dry fitting.....I had to use a shop press to get them out..
 
Hi,

If you put water inside the billet in maple before gorilla glue for example the the wood will swell up, the hole shrinks, and the dowel will lock up fast. Ebony or Cocobolo is a little more forgiving time wise.

If you put the GG on your dowel and spritz atomized water over the glue you will have at least a minute be for things start to get tight in maple or softer woods like Padauk. So there is no rush and you can rotate the billet and go in and out with out rushing because of worry about lock up.

I saw a GG video about 5 years ago where a tenon repair was done that way and since then I have never had to get my rubber sledge hammer out again. LOL.

Rick
 
scdiveteam said:
Hi,

If you put water inside the billet in maple before gorilla glue for example the the wood will swell up, the hole shrinks, and the dowel will lock up fast. Ebony or Cocobolo is a little more forgiving time wise.

If you put the GG on your dowel and spritz atomized water over the glue you will have at least a minute be for things start to get tight in maple or softer woods like Padauk. So there is no rush and you can rotate the billet and go in and out with out rushing because of worry about lock up.

I saw a GG video about 5 years ago where a tenon repair was done that way and since then I have never had to get my rubber sledge hammer out again. LOL.

Rick
Click to expand...
Or you can use thin epoxy then medium one after the thin has soaked.
But, it costs more and takes more time.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
Or you can use thin epoxy then medium one after the thin has soaked.
But, it costs more and takes more time.
Click to expand...

Joey,

That is a very good method if you want a ring out of your cues as I know is your preference and that's cool.

If you wish to have a subdued or quieter hit, GG is the way to go. There is a difference that can be felt and heard when you hit a cue ball for sure especially when using a solid cored cue on a single maple dowel end to end. Night and day.

The amount of money difference between West 105 207 and GG is pennies.

JMO,

Rick
 
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