Could Stan clarify this statement in his video

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If TOI isn't an aiming system, why do you keep bringing it up in the aiming forum? Perhaps it was a different dvd I watched. I seem to remember you describing how to use varying degrees of inside to use the ensuing deflection to create the angle to pocket the ball.

I guess it's possible you're trying to bail English out as you're concerned he really isn't using toi as he has stated and could possibly embarrass you by association. Nah, that's not possible.

It does not matter if I use TOI exactly like CJ does or anyone else.

You don't seem to understand that 'TOI' is basically a physics based principle that one can utilize in a number of manners.

CJ is merely expressing how he implements it as he feels & has experienced what he thinks is the best manner to utilize it.

Some continue to use english or spin when referring to TOI. When they do that it shows that they only 'understand' a minute aspect that is basically to be avoided beyond just that 'touch' that is a side component of what happens when using the touch of inside for it's main purpose.

There is nothing of which to bail me or CJ out.

I'll just stop there.
 
Changing the subject CJ? If TOI isn't an aiming system, why do you keep posting about it in the aiming forum? Could you also post the testimonials you have, for your TOI system, from notable professionals? Why use the NBA analogy? I don't see LeBron James hawking dvd's shamelessly on a basketball forum either.

Brickyard Billiards is about an hour from my house. No CJ, I'm not a road warrior or a hustler by any means. I was simply calling out two guys who have been making personal attacks and telling defaming lies. Not sure why you feel the need to jump in on it but if you want to make it personal, no problem.

Am I one of the two guys that you say are telling defaming lies?
 
TOI increases consistency, which strengthens confidence and makes you intimidating

We don't take anything "personal," but you're throwing around challenges about TOI and you don't even know what it is......let alone how to detect or use it. There have been countless "TOI Threads" on the main forum, perhaps you'd like me to re-post them.

The NBA analogy is simple "Basket ball players don't use aiming systems" because getting the "ball in the hole" takes a lot more than "aiming" - as a matter of fact "aiming" is something very few pros even think about.

For those confused by the classification of TOI as an "aiming system," read the following article, it will help specify the differences.

For many pool players it's a natural tendency to want to spin shots in with outside "helping" English. This technique is very useful, especially if you're trying to change the natural angle of the cue ball after contact. There's another way to do this if you want to "master a shot" so you can hit the three parts of the pocket. To do this you must become more accurate and develop a "FEEL" for the pocket. This isn't any more difficult, it just requires you to simplify your Game and reduce calculations.

There are three {main} calculations you make to be accurate using "outside English," 1st) - you must judge the immediate deflection and 2nd) - you must judge how much the spin brings the cue ball "back" to it's original "shot line". 3rd) - you must decide where to hit the cue ball to accomplish the intended shot. (these calculations are related, but not necessarily connected like they are with the TOI Technique)

You will find it's necessary to hit these shots at a variety of speeds and a variety of spins to do what you need with the cue ball. This takes a LOT of different calculations because speed effects deflection AND spin. Where you hit the cue ball and how far over to get your "outside English" also effects deflection AND spin.

Over the course of hours, you will have to make numerous calculations and instinctive judgments to make every shot as planned. With the 'Touch Of Inside' system of play I am showing you how to reduce the amount of calculations and instinctive judgments considerably.

The TOI Technique shows you how to hit one "theme" of speeds, one "theme" of spins, and one "theme" of deflection. I have played many players in my life and the only concern I had was if they would play long enough. Because, even though this edge against other accomplished players may be only 1-2%, it will show up over time.

If you're cutting a ball at a "half ball" angle down the rail to the left and using "outside" (right English") you cue ball is immediately going to deflect into the object ball slightly. To overcome undercutting it you will need to spin the cue ball to make it curve back and the spin will help cut it in. This may "FEEL" like it's helping the cut, but IS IT REALLY?

You are having to hit the speed correctly, the spin correctly, the contact point (shot line) correctly and hit the cue ball precisely to do this. I'm sure you do this very well, but how about under pressure? How do you make all these calculations playing a champion player? This is where your unconscious will start to falter and break down.

You are simply overwhelming yourself with these calculations and when you add pressure? I don't know, how does it effect you, do you play better or worse? How about over the course of a 5-10 hour set, do you rely on your game to get better and better or do you have "ups and downs?" With the TOI Technique I teach players how to use (as much as possible, of course there's exceptions, and less that you may think) ONE SPEED - ONE SHOT ANGLE REFERENCE (center or edge) - ONE TIP TARGET (the "Touch" of Inside).

The one thing you guard against {using TOI} is overcutting the ball, however, if you're going to miss a shot would you rather over cut it or under cut it? I don't know about you, but when I under cut a shot I feel like a "dogged it," however, when I over cut a shot I feel like I know what I need to do to correct what I did wrong.

TOI increases consistency, which strengthens confidence and makes your Game strong, reliable, and very intimidating. 'The Game is the Teacher'





Changing the subject CJ? If TOI isn't an aiming system, why do you keep posting about it in the aiming forum? Could you also post the testimonials you have, for your TOI system, from notable professionals? Why use the NBA analogy? I don't see LeBron James hawking dvd's shamelessly on a basketball forum either.

Brickyard Billiards is about an hour from my house. No CJ, I'm not a road warrior or a hustler by any means. I was simply calling out two guys who have been making personal attacks and telling defaming lies. Not sure why you feel the need to jump in on it but if you want to make it personal, no problem.
 
Post 138 should your answer. I'm not going to answer the perception question as it's just to vague for my tastes.
In your answer you would be shooting the shots as if you were in the blue sky, but we are not. we are on a pool table. If by subjective you mean rails and pockets yes we need that input for our initial line up.

Thanks for the direction. I did somehow miss that.

It seems no CTE proponent wants to answer that question. (regarding whether perception is objective or not in their opinion)

In the big blue sky, the application is totally objective.

If you are using the subject association of the rails & pocket then how can the system be 100% totally objective?

We seem to be working in multiple posts from 2 different threads but may be coming to an agreement.

The 75 / 25 % relation was just an example. I really would not no where to begin to put any real number to the division between the two.

So... Are you agreeing that CTE is not a 100% totally objective system or method?
 
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we all have our own ways of processing and performing

Of course you don't, we all have our own ways of processing and performing. Some of these people think there's only one way to play and "CJ" certainly doesn't know that way. That's not as funny here on this "serious forum," but it's hilarious when you see that my "critics" can't run a rack.....and don't know the first thing about TOI, TIP Banking, Aiming, or at least can't utilize the information.

One thing that must be present to learn quickly and effectively is a model. I have produced that TOI Model for many players to use, share and benefit from.

I have hundreds of emails and PMs from players that have had their eyes opened through the process of using TOI for a few hours (as outlined on the DVD).


It does not matter if I use TOI exactly like CJ does or anyone else.

You don't seem to understand that 'TOI' is basically a physics based principle that one can utilize in a number of manners.

CJ is merely expressing how he implements it as he feels & has experienced what he thinks is the best manner to utilize it.

Some continue to use english or spin when referring to TOI. When they do that it shows that they only 'understand' a minute aspect that is basically to be avoided beyond just that 'touch' that is a side component of what happens when using the touch of inside for it's main purpose.

There is nothing of which to bail me or CJ out.

I'll just stop there.
 
You know these challenges are meaningless, yet you pursue them with an unusual vigor. Does Rick represent something hostile to you?

Why are they meaningless? If you'd care to check, I didn't initiate the whole deal, 8pack did. He challenged me, I simply threw it back at him at a higher level to make it worth my while. Rick doesn't "represent" anything to me. I, and obviously other people, are simply tired of him telling lies about CTE/Pro One. I offered a very simple and cheap challenge to him where I have the opportunity to prove my side, he has the opportunity to prove his. Doesn't appear he's too eager to put his money where his mouth is, I'm sure there's a reason for that. I didn't even challenge him to play me, it was a challenge based upon his own ability. I also didn't even ask for the money to be paid to me, I suggested it be paid to a very worthy endeavor that is obviously pool related. It's friendly and it's a piddly amount, so what's holding him up?

Actually there's lot's of things in the "aiming section" that have nothing to do with your so called "aiming". You even seemed to work in a "bears thread" - I'm pretty sure football players don't use any "aiming systems"

Obviously, the Bears thing was a joke to lighten the mood after yet another group of aiming wars threads. Sorry that went over your head CJ, given the size of your ego, that's fairly difficult to accomplish.

Have you posted those testimonials yet from any of the name professionals? Looking forward to them CJ.
 
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The one thing you guard against {using TOI} is overcutting the ball, however, if you're going to miss a shot would you rather over cut it or under cut it? I don't know about you, but when I under cut a shot I feel like a "dogged it," however, when I over cut a shot I feel like I know what I need to do to correct what I did wrong.

Actually, I'd prefer not to miss it either way so I'll just keep working on improving my expertise with CTE/Pro One thank you. However, when I undercut a shot, I feel like I need to cut it more the next time. If I overcut it, I feel like I need to cut it less the next time.

CTE/Pro One is the Teacher.
 
So, we have come to the conclusion that aiming is a small part of the entire pool playing process. Finally. The rest? Fundamentals, technique, experience and mental strength.

I honestly believe aiming is the most simple part of pool. What people struggle with is alignment and consistency in their PSR. CTE, TOI, SAMBA, SEE, 90/90....you name it, they all set out how you should align to shots and give you a meaningful, structured PSR hence why people have success with them. If you are in search of a mentioned system, try them all and eventually you will find one that slots into your game effortlessly.

To not try such a method then spend your days debating the validity of such a system is pathetic and gives you no right to question such a system. As a creepy inmate once said to a new inmate...try it, you might like it.
 
It does not matter if I use TOI exactly like CJ does or anyone else.

You don't seem to understand that 'TOI' is basically a physics based principle that one can utilize in a number of manners.

CJ is merely expressing how he implements it as he feels & has experienced what he thinks is the best manner to utilize it.

Some continue to use english or spin when referring to TOI. When they do that it shows that they only 'understand' a minute aspect that is basically to be avoided beyond just that 'touch' that is a side component of what happens when using the touch of inside for it's main purpose.

There is nothing of which to bail me or CJ out.

I'll just stop there.

Kewl. I guess TOI isn't objective then, at least as defined by you, since everyone can apparently have their own version. And being objective seems to be very important to you since you constantly harp on it with respect to CTE/Pro One.

Now I don't know whether TOI has something it or not. I did purchase the DVD's, I did watch them and I did spend some time working with it. I can certainly see value in using a touch of inside for a number of shots. Given where my game is at presently, I didn't feel like it was the best thing for me to focus on. I certainly don't continuously dog TOI since I lack the expertise to make a qualified judgment. I am more than happy to take the numerous people who have advocated for it at their word that it has value. If my game advances to where I feel like it is advantageous to explore it further, I'll then read all those threads more carefully and ask constructive questions about how I can learn it better to help me rather than destructively attempt to tear it down at every turn.

I respect what you said about TOI, that is kewl. So I'll make the challenge easier. You make a video of you hitting those 5 shots consecutively with any method you choose Rick. I'll do the same except use CTE. Seems fair now doesn't it? I'm sure with your 47 years of experience, it shouldn't take you more than 2 or 3 minutes to get that done. Even if one of us loses, the money goes to a great cause. How can you beat that?
 
So, we have come to the conclusion that aiming is a small part of the entire pool playing process. Finally. The rest? Fundamentals, technique, experience and mental strength.

I honestly believe aiming is the most simple part of pool. What people struggle with is alignment and consistency in their PSR. CTE, TOI, SAMBA, SEE, 90/90....you name it, they all set out how you should align to shots and give you a meaningful, structured PSR hence why people have success with them. If you are in search of a mentioned system, try them all and eventually you will find one that slots into your game effortlessly.

To not try such a method then spend your days debating the validity of such a system is pathetic and gives you no right to question such a system. As a creepy inmate once said to a new inmate...try it, you might like it.

A voice of reason amid all the insanity. LOL
 
So, we have come to the conclusion that aiming is a small part of the entire pool playing process. Finally. The rest? Fundamentals, technique, experience and mental strength.

I honestly believe aiming is the most simple part of pool. What people struggle with is alignment and consistency in their PSR. CTE, TOI, SAMBA, SEE, 90/90....you name it, they all set out how you should align to shots and give you a meaningful, structured PSR hence why people have success with them. If you are in search of a mentioned system, try them all and eventually you will find one that slots into your game effortlessly.

To not try such a method then spend your days debating the validity of such a system is pathetic and gives you no right to question such a system. As a creepy inmate once said to a new inmate...try it, you might like it.

Boy just look at the bait thrown into what might have been a good post.
 
Here's where we have come to:

People who post in these aiming threads that have nothing to add with their comments will be given a long break from the forums.

I do not care who started it, why you were compelled to attack..no excuses.
If it isn't constructive and on topic.....I will be forced to act.

It will be unfortunate if I am not taken seriously on this matter.

If you are not here to help, share info, have fun, meet friends, you might want to consider a different forum.

Dave
 
This is the basis of how the '3 Part Pocket System' is used to create a pocket zone

So you aim by feel, glad you finally clarified that for us.

The question is, can you feel the center, inside, and outside of the pocket at the same time....or could it be better to "feel" the inside of the pocket and hit the cue ball in such a way that it over cuts into the center or outside part of the pocket? This is the basis of how the '3 Part Pocket System' is used to create a "pocket zone" rather than "trying" to hit the center, and adjusting (by feel) if you overcut, or undercut a ball.

Food for thought, and yes, this is informative if it's kept calm and collective. If anyone wants more clarification on what I described above, please click here for a free video.

Happy Holidays, and "Aim" to Please:welcome:




If I overcut it, I feel like I need to cut it less the next time.

CTE/Pro One is the Teacher.
 
So you aim by feel, glad you finally clarified that for us.

The question is, can you feel the center, inside, and outside of the pocket at the same time....or could it be better to "feel" the inside of the pocket and hit the cue ball in such a way that it over cuts into the center or outside part of the pocket? This is the basis of how the '3 Part Pocket System' is used to create a "pocket zone" rather than "trying" to hit the center, and adjusting (by feel) if you overcut, or undercut a ball.

Food for thought, and yes, this is informative if it's kept calm and collective. If anyone wants more clarification on what I described above, please click here for a free video.

Happy Holidays, and "Aim" to Please:welcome:


CJ, my comment was tongue in cheek. Turn your wit meter on please.

Using CTE, if I want to cheat the pocket one way or the other, I simply adjust from the center pocket aim line, the system provides, one direction or the other. As I'm sure you're aware, CTE simply provides that center pocket aim line to work off of. If I want to use a bit of outside or inside, I pivot 1 tip or less in the desired direction using bhe. If I have to load it up with lots of spin, I either attempt a safety or close my eyes and hope since I'm just not that good (However, I am realistic about my ability).
 
I asked you a 'first' question that you did answer. I then asked you a 'second' question. Did I miss your answer to that question & if so can you please direct me to that answer?

Here is what many seem to not understand what Anthony, I & I think Colin are saying.

If one executes the shots with the visuals & the 1/2 tip pivot totally objectively with no subjective input the shots miss by significant amounts. It is NOT due to bad stroke or anything like that. It is because we have done the best that we can to not allow any thing else subjective to influence the shot. We have done our best to execute the shots as though a robot would.

Let me ask you the this question.

Do you consider perception to be objective?

What's the matter with the answer you got in post #100? Instead of acting like a robot, maybe you just need to actually follow the directions given as they are stated. The perception is as objective as can be. To think that it isn't only shows you don't understand what the perception even is. Even after having it explained to you. What is your objective? To cut the ball or to bank the ball. How can your objective not be objective? It can't. Your perception is where you need to roughly stand. If you want to cut the ball in the side, you instantly draw an objective line approximating where the ghost ball line is. That line is very objective. To say that it isn't, means that you never have any idea where to even start from to make any shot.

Then you have your visuals. Center to edge with edge to A. Very objective lines. Half tip pivot, again, very objective. What is not objective? None of it. No adjustments, no guessing.

Why do you keep coming up with things that aren't even part of the system, such as no rails, no pockets, ball in the sky stuff? Why try and discredit the system by using things that aren't even part of the system? The only reason you need a pocket is so you know where to make the ball, and for the ball to fall into. The only reason you need the rails is to get a perception of where the pocket would be to obtain your perception of the shot at hand if the pocket is blocked from your vision by a curtain. Your statements aren't even making any sense.
 
Ahh the old close the eyes and have faith system. You may benefit from marking your shafts for various pivot points. Back from my days of using CTE I marked all my shafts for pivot lengths and tip positions, for varying angles of delivery. I had about 10 or so little marks on my shafts and playing with no, little or extreme English became simple and resulted in a centre pocket pot. That's one thing that originally put me off. I always used English by feel, never pivoted or used FHE. Then I took the time to mark my shafts and experiment with different bridge lengths of all kinds of tip positions and speeds and it became simple.
 
Ahh the old close the eyes and have faith system. You may benefit from marking your shafts for various pivot points. Back from my days of using CTE I marked all my shafts for pivot lengths and tip positions, for varying angles of delivery. I had about 10 or so little marks on my shafts and playing with no, little or extreme English became simple and resulted in a centre pocket pot. That's one thing that originally put me off. I always used English by feel, never pivoted or used FHE. Then I took the time to mark my shafts and experiment with different bridge lengths of all kinds of tip positions and speeds and it became simple.

Pidge, thanks for that recommendation. I use an ob 2 LD shaft and find for most shots, no adjustment is needed for applying one tip or less. I'll take your suggestion and calibrate my shaft for bhe and mark it accordingly. I think the pivot point for the ob2 is about 14 or 15". I'd probably miss the shot with that long of a bridge anyway. Lol
 
Experience was a factor, as was alignment, speed, wrist motion, and tip targeting.

So you don't "aim" by feel?

Sometimes what we need the most we already possess. What you think is "tongue in cheek" may be what you've been looking for all along......feel.....which is the "secret" to pool. The challenge is trying to teach touch/feel because it's a subconscious process.

My feel was especially good last night at a tournament. My ticket got drawn and I had to break and run a rack of 10 ball on an extremely tight table. I broke, made a ball and no one in the room thought I could cut the one in......it was an extreme angle, and the balls were about an inch apart.

I justed the extreme throw stroke that Buddy Hall showed me in Tampa.....the one cut almost backwards into the pocket allowing the cue ball to travel 12' into perfect position. There's no "aiming system" in the world that I could use for that shot. Experience was a factor, as was alignment, speed, wrist motion, and tip targeting.

What I could do is align to to the inside of the pocket and "throw" the ball with a quick, staccato stroke that imparts maximum "quick english"......in other words, it's how you go about pocketing the ball more than how you "aim".....you must understand how a pocket zone is created, or you'll be stuck "aiming at the center of the pocket".


CJ, my comment was tongue in cheek. Turn your wit meter on please.

Using CTE, if I want to cheat the pocket one way or the other, I simply adjust from the center pocket aim line, the system provides, one direction or the other. As I'm sure you're aware, CTE simply provides that center pocket aim line to work off of. If I want to use a bit of outside or inside, I pivot 1 tip or less in the desired direction using bhe. If I have to load it up with lots of spin, I either attempt a safety or close my eyes and hope since I'm just not that good (However, I am realistic about my ability).
 
Thanks for the direction. I did somehow miss that.

It seems no CTE proponent wants to answer that question. (regarding whether perception is objective or not in their opinion)

In the big blue sky, the application is totally objective.

If you are using the subject association of the rails & pocket then how can the system be 100% totally objective?

We seem to be working in multiple posts from 2 different threads but may be coming to an agreement.

The 75 / 25 % relation was just an example. I really would not no where to begin to put any real number to the division between the two.

So... Are you agreeing that CTE is not a 100% totally objective system or method?
Again not sure about your definition of totally objective. Does CTE pocket balls of most angles without adjustments, YES. I say most just because some extreme angles shouldn't be attempted. So its basically all angles that you would normally shoot.
 
Pidge, thanks for that recommendation. I use an ob 2 LD shaft and find for most shots, no adjustment is needed for applying one tip or less. I'll take your suggestion and calibrate my shaft for bhe and mark it accordingly. I think the pivot point for the ob2 is about 14 or 15". I'd probably miss the shot with that long of a bridge anyway. Lol
Ha yeah that's quite a lengthy bridge. I think it would be better to utilize FHE for your shaft. You could always calibrate it for FHE.
 
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