CTE aiming.

[Elephant Man]

In a nutshell Hal asked us not to divulge the methods online.

I am pretty sure all of the information needed to figure out CTE is either in this thread or linked to it in this thread. The hardest part is figuring out what NOT to study and waste your time. Like lots of people hung up on the 1 tip off center... I still enjoy checking back here in between pocketing balls more confidently. :thumbup:

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I am pretty sure all of the information needed to figure out CTE is either in this thread or linked to it in this thread. The hardest part is figuring out what NOT to study and waste your time. Like lots of people hung up on the 1 tip off center... I still enjoy checking back here in between pocketing balls more confidently. :thumbup:

Hey, I'm glad you posted Elephant Man. Many of you don't know, but he red-repped me at the beginning of the thread saying I was negative (I prob was). After I told him everything you needed to know what in this thread, he went back and studied what was presented and voila- he got it.

Elephant, since you don't care if either Dr. Dave or myself fell off a bridge tomorrow (meaning, you don't know either of us ) - what's your take on CTE? I know you've only used it for a few days now, but give us an early report. Pros/cons

 

[justadub]

Justadub: the reason it can't be discussed is that spidey made a promise to Hal (the creator) not to post it on here. He knows people are curious and he hates to see people knock it, so he has chosen to sort of skirt the promise by offering bits and pieces that (supposedly) can be made into a full picture if you're patient enough.

Hal's not looking to profit on it, his motivations for not wanting it posted aren't spelled out... but it doesn't matter. A promise is a promise.

I pretty much understood most of that before I posted. I just wondered if there had been a better explanation as to the "why" the Creator didn't want it out there. Apparently not, at least not for public consumption. And that's cool, it certainly is his perogative. It just seems interesting to me that we have these threads about a system that isn't allowed be explained in the threads. I'm easily confused, you know. :embarrassed2:

A promise is a promise, certainly. SWC is a good man for holding up his end of that deal. That's not easily said about many folks these days.

 

[Elephant Man]

Hey, I'm glad you posted Elephant Man. Many of you don't know, but he red-repped me at the beginning of the thread saying I was negative (I prob was). After I told him everything you needed to know what in this thread, he went back and studied what was presented and voila- he got it.

Elephant, since you don't care if either Dr. Dave or myself fell off a bridge tomorrow (meaning, you don't know either of us ) - what's your take on CTE? I know you've only used it for a few days now, but give us an early report. Pros/cons

It has been said before but, you still have to be able to aim and have a smooth stroke in order for CTE to work. I have been practicing 2-4 hours a day this week. I am getting better at it, a routine, but sometimes it still takes me 30-45 seconds before I feel confident taking the shot. My almost straight in shots have dramatically improved. When I line up a shot on the rail now, it looks off, but it usually goes. Thing is after making those shots, I can make them without CTE afterwords. It is re-training my brain. Also side pockets shots have gotten cleaner. Getting good at using CTE is not an overnight process I am finding out, and I wouldn't use CTE only, yet, if anything were on the line. But I can see a day very soon where I won't even think about it, and it will just part of the routine.

One more thing. The diagram Dr Dave has been posting, with the 4 balls down the center of the table and the CB one diamond behind, isn't an easy task with any aiming method. Long shots with short bridges are proving to be hardest for me. But if the balls don't hit the pocket, they are coming damn close, and not hitting the rail like in the diagram.

Good luck all, the webinar will be worth it I am sure.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

It has been said before but, you still have to be able to aim and have a smooth stroke in order for CTE to work. I have been practicing 2-4 hours a day this week. I am getting better at it, a routine, but sometimes it still takes me 30-45 seconds before I feel confident taking the shot. My almost straight in shots have dramatically improved. When I line up a shot on the rail now, it looks off, but it usually goes. Thing is after making those shots, I can make them without CTE afterwords. It is re-training my brain. Also side pockets shots have gotten cleaner. Getting good at using CTE is not an overnight process I am finding out, and I wouldn't use CTE only, yet, if anything were on the line. But I can see a day very soon where I won't even think about it, and it will just part of the routine.

One more thing. The diagram Dr Dave has been posting, with the 4 balls down the center of the table and the CB one diamond behind, isn't an easy task with any aiming method. Long shots with short bridges are proving to be hardest for me. But if the balls don't hit the pocket, they are coming damn close, and not hitting the rail like in the diagram.

Good luck all, the webinar will be worth it I am sure.

The thing that takes the most time is identifying the 6:00 line accurately, quickly and then setting up your cue parallel to the CTEL. I can do this in about 2 secs, but someone who is just learning will take a while.

Long shots--- If you perform a manual pivot, your bridge needs to be longer - not shorter. Otherwise, you have to air pivot. Your bridge (with a manual pivot) prob shouldn't be under 10". If it is, it's impossible to pivot with the right arc.

 

[AtLarge]

With all due respect Roger, and with all due respect to Dr. Dave whom I also respect very much for his work, if he does not have the COMPLETE information on something that works for so many then why not invest the time to go to the source?

All these years Dr. Dave could have gone to see Hal Houle. ...

If I were on the path to becoming the preeminent billiard instructional scholar which I believe Dr. Dave is becoming then I would certainly go to the ends of the Earth seeking out every source of such systems. Especially when such systems generate such fanatical devotees.

...

Sadly Hal will probably pass away without Dr. Dave ever having met him and at least getting his information from the source. ...

John -- Dr. Dave has said more than once (e.g., post #302 of this thread) that he has spoken with Hal multiple times by phone. So Dr. Dave did "go to the source," just not via a personal visit.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

John -- Dr. Dave has said more than once (e.g., post #302 of this thread) that he has spoken with Hal multiple times by phone. So Dr. Dave did "go to the source," just not via a personal visit.

And what did Dr. Dave get out of it? The three cut system without a pivot?

LMAO

Maybe Hal didn't like him or something, who knows. I'd be interested in reading about what Hal told him exactly. Dave, if you get a chance--- tell us the details of the conversation.

Dave

 

[LAMas]

It has been said before but, you still have to be able to aim and have a smooth stroke in order for CTE to work. I have been practicing 2-4 hours a day this week. I am getting better at it, a routine, but sometimes it still takes me 30-45 seconds before I feel confident taking the shot. My almost straight in shots have dramatically improved. When I line up a shot on the rail now, it looks off, but it usually goes. Thing is after making those shots, I can make them without CTE afterwords. It is re-training my brain. Also side pockets shots have gotten cleaner. Getting good at using CTE is not an overnight process I am finding out, and I wouldn't use CTE only, yet, if anything were on the line. But I can see a day very soon where I won't even think about it, and it will just part of the routine.

One more thing. The diagram Dr Dave has been posting, with the 4 balls down the center of the table and the CB one diamond behind, isn't an easy task with any aiming method. Long shots with short bridges are proving to be hardest for me. But if the balls don't hit the pocket, they are coming damn close, and not hitting the rail like in the diagram.

Good luck all, the webinar will be worth it I am sure.

E.M.,
That's what dr_dave was saying - that in order to cut those 4 balls into the pocket, you can't use the same CTE and you need to change something. The exact/same shot has to confirm dr_dave's diagram, for his diagram is like a cut and past of the exact/same CTE for all 4 shots.

What is new here now, is that SWC Dave is saying to increase the distance between the CB and bridge for longer shots where the OB is further away from the CB. When one does this, the included angle becomes less (fewer degrees) which is needed to keep the CB going to the intended hit on the OB to send it to the pocket. So SWC Dave is saying that for "long shots" - to increase the distance between the bridge and the CB from 10-12" to say, 14-15", 16-17" - The geometry is then more correct. Another way to deviate from the classic CTE, is to offset the 1 cue tip diameter less for longer shots to reduce the included angle - from 1 cue tip diameter to 3/4, 1/2, or 1/4 cue tip diameter etc.

What dr_dave and I concluded back at post #1.

Thanks dr_dave for saying that something has to deviate from the exact CTE for different shots and to SWC for saying that the bridge is where the pivot takes place and that the bridge is moved farther back for long shots.

That said, I will seldom use CTE for wing shots.:smile:

 

[SpiderWebComm]

E.M.,
That's what dr_dave was saying - that in order to cut those 4 balls into the pocket, you can't use the same CTE and you need to change something. The exact/same shot has to confirm dr_dave's diagram, for his diagram is like a cut and past of the exact/same CTE for all 4 shots.

What is new here now, is that SWC Dave is saying to increase the distance between the CB and bridge for longer shots where the OB is further away from the CB. When one does this, the included angle becomes less (fewer degrees) which is needed to keep the CB going to the intended hit on the OB to send it to the pocket. So SWC Dave is saying that for "long shots" - to increase the distance between the bridge and the CB from 10-12" to say, 14-15", 16-17" - The geometry is then more correct. Another way to deviate from the classic CTE, is to offset the 1 cue tip diameter less for longer shots to reduce the included angle - from 1 cue tip diameter to 3/4, 1/2, or 1/4 cue tip diameter etc.

What dr_dave and I concluded back at post #1.

Thanks dr_dave for saying that something has to deviate from the exact CTE for different shots and to SWC for saying that the bridge is where the pivot takes place and that the bridge is moved farther back for long shots.

That said, I will seldom use CTE for wing shots.:smile:

Lamas-

I think you're misquoting me. I've said for years (and multiple times in this thread since the beginning), your bridge length should be between 10-12" for every shot and all distances until the OB/CB distance is shorter than your bridge length--- then, you must shorten your bridge.

What he was saying was that he was having a tough time with long shots and a short bridge. You can't make long shots with shorter bridges because it's impossible to arc correctly (unless, of course, you air pivot).

So, nothing new here... I'm just repeating myself. And for the gazillionth time: The bridge is NEVER, EVER where the pivot takes place. If it is, you're not doing something right.
Dave

 

[Elephant Man]

E.M.,
That's what dr_dave was saying - that in order to cut those 4 balls into the pocket, you can't use the same CTE and you need to change something. The exact/same shot has to confirm dr_dave's diagram, for his diagram is like a cut and past of the exact/same CTE for all 4 shots.

What is new here now, is that SWC Dave is saying to increase the distance between the CB and bridge for longer shots where the OB is further away from the CB. When one does this, the included angle becomes less (fewer degrees) which is needed to keep the CB going to the intended hit on the OB to send it to the pocket. So SWC Dave is saying that for "long shots" - to increase the distance between the bridge and the CB from 10-12" to say, 14-15", 16-17" - The geometry is then more correct. Another way to deviate from the classic CTE, is to offset the 1 cue tip diameter less for longer shots to reduce the included angle - from 1 cue tip diameter to 3/4, 1/2, or 1/4 cue tip diameter etc.

What dr_dave and I concluded back at post #1.

Thanks dr_dave for saying that something has to deviate from the exact CTE for different shots and to SWC for saying that the bridge is where the pivot takes place and that the bridge is moved farther back for long shots.

That said, I will seldom use CTE for wing shots.:smile:

Of course something changes, but you still do the same thing for every shot. And I know that for longer shots the pivot point is further back, it says exactly how much somewhere, I think in the blog, but everyone is ignoring that information for some reason. My sentences ran together a little but to be more clear, I am having trouble when the CB is close to the rail and the OB is far away. I know where to pivot, just still haven't mastered it. Sure you can memorize different tip offsets for different angles but why?

Quote of the first paragraph in Spideys blog:
"The shot circle is the exact arc for your pivot. If you think of each shot in pool as being a circle – with your bridge being the center of the circle and the OB being the edge of the circle – you must pivot along the arc of that circle in order for your shot to go."

Think about this until you understand.

 

[sfleinen]

[...]
...(unless, of course, you air pivot).
[...]

Dave:

What is this, and how do you do it? I initially thought this was when, after eating lunch, I lean to one side in my office chair, let one go, and the chair spins around.

J/K! A little levity to break-up the monotony,
-Sean

 

[LAMas]

Of course something changes, but you still do the same thing for every shot. And I know that for longer shots the pivot point is further back, it says exactly how much somewhere, I think in the blog, but everyone is ignoring that information for some reason. My sentences ran together a little but to be more clear, I am having trouble when the CB is close to the rail and the OB is far away. I know where to pivot, just still haven't mastered it. Sure you can memorize different tip offsets for different angles but why?

Quote of the first paragraph in Spideys blog:
"The shot circle is the exact arc for your pivot. If you think of each shot in pool as being a circle – with your bridge being the center of the circle and the OB being the edge of the circle – you must pivot along the arc of that circle in order for your shot to go."

Think about this until you understand.

" I know that for longer shots the pivot point is further back,.."
SWC Dave says:
"I've said for years (and multiple times in this thread since the beginning), your bridge length should be between 10-12" for every shot and all distances...."

What say you about a shot where the CB is one inch from the foot rail and the OB is on the spot - where you have to place your bridge hand on the rail to hold your cue - help me understand where the pivot is and how to pivot along the arch of the OB?.

"The shot circle is the exact arc for your pivot."

A circle is not an arc....an arc is a segment of a circle. The bridge is at the center of that circle and is the pivot point of the arc.

"Think about this until you understand"
Elephant Man

 

[Elephant Man]

" I know that for longer shots the pivot point is further back,.."
SWC Dave says:
"I've said for years (and multiple times in this thread since the beginning), your bridge length should be between 10-12" for every shot and all distances...."

What say you about a shot where the CB is one inch from the foot rail and the OB is on the spot - where you have to place your bridge hand on the rail to hold your cue - help me understand where the pivot is and how to pivot along the arch of the OB?.

"The shot circle is the exact arc for your pivot."

A circle is not an arc....an arc is a segment of a circle. The bridge is at the center of that circle and is the pivot point of the arc.

"Think about this until you understand"
Elephant Man

Look man I am not trying to be a dick. Learning how to pivot takes work, I still suck at it, especially in the scenario you described. But knowing where to pivot is the first priority. Figure out how later. There is a reason he doesn't say HALF CIRCLE. Yes the bridge is in the middle of the FULL CIRCLE. The OB is on one side of the circle...

And you don't pivot in a 360 degree circle, just a portion of the circle, hence the arc.

Again, with the friendliest intentions, read this and stare at the picture.:

""The shot circle is the exact arc for your pivot. If you think of each shot in pool as being a circle – with your bridge being the center of the circle and the OB being the edge of the circle – you must pivot along the arc of that circle in order for your shot to go."

Until that is understood, even if it is sorta cryptic, why go onto the next step?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Anyone else not understanding the pivot? Until you get beyond the fact that the bridge isn't the pivot point, you're going to be mired in mud. For non-pivoters, this point is sometimes extremely difficult to grasp. The arc of your pivot is part of the shot circle, not the bridge circle. You can bridge from the same place and arc many different ways.

If you move your back hand (like BHE), you risk pivoting along the wrong arc (you don't have to, although you risk it). Move your upper torso like a tank turret while staring at the OB to make sure you get your distance/arc correctly. Note: This torso "turn" while stepping into your shot is what makes air pivoting work.

Either you understand this and you're successful with CTE or you don't and you won't.


Dave

 

[AtLarge]

Anyone else not understanding the pivot? Until you get beyond the fact that the bridge isn't the pivot point, you're going to be mired in mud. For non-pivoters, this point is sometimes extremely difficult to grasp. The arc of your pivot is part of the shot circle, not the bridge circle. You can bridge from the same place and arc many different ways.

If you move your back hand (like BHE), you risk pivoting along the wrong arc (you don't have to, although you risk it). Move your upper torso like a tank turret while staring at the OB to make sure you get your distance/arc correctly. Note: This torso "turn" while stepping into your shot is what makes air pivoting work.

Either you understand this and you're successful with CTE or you don't and you won't.


Dave

Dave, you haven't answered my post #440 yet. I've got a hunch that your answer will be something about the pivot; something like what you said in the quoted post here.

But aren't what you call the "shot circle" and the "bridge circle" two concentric circles with the same center -- the bridge. Isn't pivoting around the center of any circle the same as pivoting around the center of all other circles that are concentric with it?

Help, please!

 

[CreeDo]

I'm getting hung up on this too. I'm seeing contradictions.

If your bridge is the center of a circle, whether that circle extends to the CB, the OB, or the neighbor's window... you are pivoting within the SAME CIRCLE. Furthermore, your bridge is by definition the pivot point if you're calling the bridge the center of the circle.

If the pivot point happens somewhere further back, like maybe around the joint of the cue (which dave has implied in his video) then the bridge is NOT the center of the circle (the joint of the cue is). Or it's a center of SOME circle, but it's totally irrelevant because you're not supposed to pivot from it. The bridge just rides along while the entire stick pivots around its joint.

I don't see the need for the confusion and seemingly useless distinctions between the various circles. From what I understand it's this simple:

1. Line up your stick correctly at the start, somewhere PARALLEL to the CTEL line. Apparently the offset is a half ball, i.e. it will end up edge to edge and then you rotate til it's center to edge.

Correct lineup means bridge placement (which we know is 10"-12"). It ALSO means using the shot circle to decide how you're planting your body, as explained here: http://spiderwebcomm.blogspot.com/2010/04/center-to-edge-center-to-which-edge-as.html

2. Using point X as the CENTRAL PIVOT POINT, pivot the cue until you are visually pointing at the center of the cue ball.

All we need to know now is... what is point X? Don't say "along such and such arc" .. just tell me what is the center of the clockface. The base of the turrent. Where the 4 helicopter blades meet. The hub of the wagon wheel.

What is the EXACT POINT around which the pivot happens? If you say it's somewhere on the cue behind the bridge but you're not sure exactly where that's fine. I can find it. If you say it's your hips and the point is somewhere in your small intestine, that's fine. If you admit it's sort of a matter of feel, that's fine too. Or if it's classified that's fine too.

I just want some straight answer about what the literal (dime-sized) CENTER of the pivoting action is.
------------

And spider, as I dig through your past posts in an effort to piece together the system, I still never see a mention of reference to the pocket.

Recently you mentioned the shishkebab system and saying you didn't like it because it had no reference to the eventual target:

But, for the life of me.... I can't figure out how the system knows the location of the second ball (because once I'm lined up, you can move the second ball and how would the first know where the second is?)

So you know what I'm talking about when I say this: There HAS to be a reference to the pocket somewhere in CTE. It's literally impossible for it to work without one. So what is it? All of the bits I can find never mention the pocket/target. I have a formula for approaching and planting my back foot and lining up the cue stick pre-pivot. As far as I can tell the formula doesn't care where the pocket is. And there's no mention of the pocket in the pivot process.

I thought I had it when I saw a CTE diagram that showed the ghostball contact point. But from what you've described that diagram wasn't quite right. So was the ghostball contact point incorrect? Does it not get factored?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dave, you haven't answered my post #440 yet. I've got a hunch that your answer will be something about the pivot; something like what you said in the quoted post here.

But aren't what you call the "shot circle" and the "bridge circle" two concentric circles with the same center -- the bridge. Isn't pivoting around the center of any circle the same as pivoting around the center of all other circles that are concentric with it?

Help, please!

Although you're holding it in the center (bridge), you're not pivoting from it--- it's farther back.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm getting hung up on this too. I'm seeing contradictions.

If your bridge is the center of a circle, whether that circle extends to the CB, the OB, or the neighbor's window... you are pivoting within the SAME CIRCLE. Furthermore, your bridge is by definition the pivot point if you're calling the bridge the center of the circle.

If the pivot point happens somewhere further back, like maybe around the joint of the cue (which dave has implied in his video) then the bridge is NOT the center of the circle (the joint of the cue is). Or it's a center of SOME circle, but it's totally irrelevant because you're not supposed to pivot from it. The bridge just rides along while the entire stick pivots around its joint.

I don't see the need for the confusion and seemingly useless distinctions between the various circles. From what I understand it's this simple:

1. Line up your stick correctly at the start, somewhere PARALLEL to the CTEL line. Apparently the offset is a half ball, i.e. it will end up edge to edge and then you rotate til it's center to edge.

Correct lineup means bridge placement (which we know is 10"-12"). It ALSO means using the shot circle to decide how you're planting your body, as explained here: http://spiderwebcomm.blogspot.com/2010/04/center-to-edge-center-to-which-edge-as.html

2. Using point X as the CENTRAL PIVOT POINT, pivot the cue until you are visually pointing at the center of the cue ball.

All we need to know now is... what is point X? Don't say "along such and such arc" .. just tell me what is the center of the clockface. The base of the turrent. Where the 4 helicopter blades meet. The hub of the wagon wheel.

What is the EXACT POINT around which the pivot happens? If you say it's somewhere on the cue behind the bridge but you're not sure exactly where that's fine. I can find it. If you say it's your hips and the point is somewhere in your small intestine, that's fine. If you admit it's sort of a matter of feel, that's fine too. Or if it's classified that's fine too.

I just want some straight answer about what the literal (dime-sized) CENTER of the pivoting action is.
------------

And spider, as I dig through your past posts in an effort to piece together the system, I still never see a mention of reference to the pocket.

Recently you mentioned the shishkebab system and saying you didn't like it because it had no reference to the eventual target:



So you know what I'm talking about when I say this: There HAS to be a reference to the pocket somewhere in CTE. It's literally impossible for it to work without one. So what is it? All of the bits I can find never mention the pocket/target. I have a formula for approaching and planting my back foot and lining up the cue stick pre-pivot. As far as I can tell the formula doesn't care where the pocket is. And there's no mention of the pocket in the pivot process.

I thought I had it when I saw a CTE diagram that showed the ghostball contact point. But from what you've described that diagram wasn't quite right. So was the ghostball contact point incorrect? Does it not get factored?

I was referring to that combo system, not the shishkebob aiming system. The only reference you need for the pocket is whether it's thick or thin. I don't focus on the base of the turret, I focus on where the bullet comes out -- I let the base of the turret calibrate itself based on where the front goes.

Dave

 

[AtLarge]

Although you're holding it in the center (bridge), you're not pivoting from it--- it's farther back.

Suppose I'm doing an on-the-table mechanical pivot, not an air pivot. So I'm holding the shaft fairly snugly in my left (bridge) hand, which is on the table. No matter where I move my right hand -- no matter what arc I try to trace with the tip of the cue -- the shaft is going to turn/pivot around the point where it is being held in the left hand unless I also somehow move my left hand, or part of it, to allow the shaft to somehow recognize some other pivot point. Is that what is happening?

What's the fallacy of my point about concentric circles?

Post #440 -- how do I make a shot that is a half-ball hit when my cue is being held off the CTEL because of the pre-pivot cue offset?

 

[CreeDo]

I was referring to that combo system, not the shishkebob aiming system. The only reference you need for the pocket is whether it's thick or thin. I don't focus on the base of the turret, I focus on where the bullet comes out -- I let the base of the turret calibrate itself based on where the front goes.

Dave

Ok, that tells me what I need to know, namely that I don't need to waste any more time on it Thank god I didn't blow money on this stuff.