CTE use by pros on live streams

[luckwouldhaveit]

Since all the discussions about aiming systems, I noticed this from the tar and accustats streams:

- In Bartrum vs Dennis, Bartrum was pivoting to the left on his practice strokes for his break. His aim line looked like 2nd or 3rd ball of the 10 ball rack IIRC. On his final stroke, he stroked straight through.

- Lee Van was taking his practice strokes on long distance straight in shots with a pivot and also stroked straight through only on his final stroke. I noticed him doing this on multiple occasions.

Are these examples of pros using CTE or maybe another aiming method? I have no idea how CTE works and am just curious.

 

[Maniac]

In the long, over-dramatized thread that GMT started (and eventually got pulled), Chris made statements to the effect that he thought he was using some form of CTE without even realizing that CTE existed. He described how he aimed in a couple of his posts and asked if what he was doing sounded like CTE, but I don't think he ever got a clear, definitive answer.

Maniac

 

[SpiderWebComm]

In the long, over-dramatized thread that GMT started (and eventually got pulled), Chris made statements to the effect that he thought he was using some form of CTE without even realizing that CTE existed. He described how he aimed in a couple of his posts and asked if what he was doing sounded like CTE, but I don't think he ever got a clear, definitive answer.

Maniac

Whenever you start from an offset position and finish at center (the correct center), you must be starting from the correct visual. Chris asked if what he was using was CTE and I just said he's using the math behind it without consciously going through the construct of the system. His eyes are in the correct place through experience and then he swishes the cue.

I vaguely remember either he learned it from Danny Basavich or Danny does the same thing... one or the other. I think he called it the left-right method. Maybe in between winning money at DCC and checking the computer, Chris can comment (because my memory is terrible).

Dave

 

[lfigueroa]

Since all the discussions about aiming systems, I noticed this from the tar and accustats streams:

- In Bartrum vs Dennis, Bartrum was pivoting to the left on his practice strokes for his break. His aim line looked like 2nd or 3rd ball of the 10 ball rack IIRC. On his final stroke, he stroked straight through.

- Lee Van was taking his practice strokes on long distance straight in shots with a pivot and also stroked straight through only on his final stroke. I noticed him doing this on multiple occasions.

Are these examples of pros using CTE or maybe another aiming method? I have no idea how CTE works and am just curious.

I think it would behoove some of the CTE proponents to acknowledge that there are really only so many ways you can approach a pool shot. AND not everyone (probably nobody) who is pivoting in from left to right, or right to left, is doing so for any reason whatsoever to do with CTE. It just might (probably) be that it is the way they set up because they have found -- over time and through experimentation -- that doing that produces a nice, comfortable, accurate, reliable, and repeatable set up for them.

That's all.

I myself might pivot in from left to right. But I believe everyone here would be willing to admitted that the last thing I am doing is using CTE. So let us not jump to conclusions.

Puleeeseeee.

Lou Figueroa

 

[sfleinen]

I think it would behoove some of the CTE proponents to acknowledge that there are really only so many ways you can approach a pool shot. AND not everyone (probably nobody) who is pivoting in from left to right, or right to left, is doing so for any reason whatsoever to do with CTE. It just might (probably) be that it is the way they set up because they have found -- over time and through experimentation -- that doing that produces a nice, comfortable, accurate, reliable, and repeatable set up for them.

That's all.

I myself might pivot in from left to right. But I believe everyone here would be willing to admitted that the last thing I am doing is using CTE. So let us not jump to conclusions.

Puleeeseeee.

Lou Figueroa

Folks:

There's a good point to this. Many of the pros don't realize that they may be compensating for something in his/her stroke. Let's take an example -- the grip hand. Since the hand is asymmetrical (i.e. you have two/three/four fingers on one side of the cue, and only one finger [the thumb] on the other), you have a symmetry problem. The hand is NOT a mechanically perfect device for delivering a cue in a straight line.

If you "look back there" and watch your grip hand when stroking the cue back and forth, you'll see a LOT of complex operations going on back there related to the fingers opening and closing, perhaps the rear fingers sliding up off the cue and sliding back onto it, etc. If I were to design a cradle to hold the cue to deliver it in a straight line, I couldn't think of a worse design than the human hand. I'd instead opt for a simple hinge that only allows forward and backward motion; it won't allow any side-to-side motion of the cue, nor involve any side-motion of the device itself (e.g. as what happens when your rear fingers slide off and back onto the cue). We've all heard of the "snatching/grabbing" the cue nastiness, right? Well, your hand is designed to do that -- its main purpose in life is gripping/grabbing, afterall! So, in order to minimize the jarring/bumping/throwing-the-cue-offline, you must make some adjustments to compensate. Those compensations may either be loosening the wrist, only letting the first two fingers grab the cue at any time, perhaps "pinching" the cue between the knuckles of the thumb and forefinger, etc.

When you put the human shooter in a stress situation -- e.g. a long shot or a shot that requires power -- sometimes the shooter is subconsciously aware that the heel of his/her hand "bumps" the cue during delivery. When the heel of the hand bumps the cue, it bumps the butt of the cue inwards towards your body. For a righthanded shooter, this means the butt of the cue gets bumped/thrown to the left (again, towards your body), which means the tip swings a bit to the right. Many pros compensate for this by aiming slightly to the left of where they actually want to shoot, and have calculated exactly how much "heel bump" throws the cue back on line, according to how much power and wrist snap they use.

Doubt me? Watch some of these pros' strokes from the overhead camera view. You'll see lining up and practice strokes that look like he/she will slightly overcut the ball. But when the final delivery stroke is applied, you'll see an OBVIOUS "hook" or "hitch" in the stroke that looks like a slight arc. For a right-handed player, you'll see the cue delivery arc to the right. This comes from the grip hand's heel bumping/pushing on that one side of the cue. Other pros address this problem by never letting his/her heel ever touch the cue (e.g. gripping the cue only with the first two fingers).

I know that pivot aimers are "Desperately Seeking Susan" when it comes to identifying pros using pivot aiming systems in videos. But like Lou, I think these efforts are roughly analogous to "when you've just walked out of the hardware store with the shiny new hammer you just bought, everything looks like a nail to you."

And like I've said before, I think folks are spending entirely too much time on this aiming system topic, as if it's the holy grail of pool greatness. Almost to the point of exclusivity! But in way, I think this topic of aiming systems is a sort of "LaBrea Tarpit," forever trapping those unwilling to trust their subconscious mind. Almost like there's a struggle for "control" by their conscious mind, and they have to forcibly keep the "aiming" part at the forefront of the conscious mind. I like to call that a "Tarpitted" pool player. Poor sap!

-Sean

 

[lfigueroa]

Folks:

There's a good point to this. Many of the pros don't realize that they may be compensating for something in his/her stroke. Let's take an example -- the grip hand. Since the hand is asymmetrical (i.e. you have two/three/four fingers on one side of the cue, and only one finger [the thumb] on the other), you have a symmetry problem. The hand is NOT a mechanically perfect device for delivering a cue in a straight line.

If you "look back there" and watch your grip hand when stroking the cue back and forth, you'll see a LOT of complex operations going on back there related to the fingers opening and closing, perhaps the rear fingers sliding up off the cue and sliding back onto it, etc. If I were to design a cradle to hold the cue to deliver it in a straight line, I couldn't think of a worse design than the human hand. I'd instead opt for a simple hinge that only allows forward and backward motion; it won't allow any side-to-side motion of the cue, nor involve any side-motion of the device itself (e.g. as what happens when your rear fingers slide off and back onto the cue). We've all heard of the "snatching/grabbing" the cue nastiness, right? Well, your hand is designed to do that -- its main purpose in life is gripping/grabbing, afterall! So, in order to minimize the jarring/bumping/throwing-the-cue-offline, you must make some adjustments to compensate. Those compensations may either be loosening the wrist, only letting the first two fingers grab the cue at any time, perhaps "pinching" the cue between the knuckles of the thumb and forefinger, etc.

When you put the human shooter in a stress situation -- e.g. a long shot or a shot that requires power -- sometimes the shooter is subconsciously aware that the heel of his/her hand "bumps" the cue during delivery. When the heel of the hand bumps the cue, it bumps the butt of the cue inwards towards your body. For a righthanded shooter, this means the butt of the cue gets bumped/thrown to the left (again, towards your body), which means the tip swings a bit to the right. Many pros compensate for this by aiming slightly to the left of where they actually want to shoot, and have calculated exactly how much "heel bump" throws the cue back on line, according to how much power and wrist snap they use.

Doubt me? Watch some of these pros' strokes from the overhead camera view. You'll see lining up and practice strokes that look like he/she will slightly overcut the ball. But when the final delivery stroke is applied, you'll see an OBVIOUS "hook" or "hitch" in the stroke that looks like a slight arc. For a right-handed player, you'll see the cue delivery arc to the right. This comes from the grip hand's heel bumping/pushing on that one side of the cue. Other pros address this problem by never letting his/her heel ever touch the cue (e.g. gripping the cue only with the first two fingers).

I know that pivot aimers are "Desperately Seeking Susan" when it comes to identifying pros using pivot aiming systems in videos. But like Lou, I think these efforts are roughly analogous to "when you've just walked out of the hardware store with the shiny new hammer you just bought, everything looks like a nail to you."

And like I've said before, I think folks are spending entirely too much time on this aiming system topic, as if it's the holy grail of pool greatness. Almost to the point of exclusivity! But in way, I think this topic of aiming systems is a sort of "LaBrea Tarpit," forever trapping those unwilling to trust their subconscious mind. Almost like there's a struggle for "control" by their conscious mind, and they have to forcibly keep the "aiming" part at the forefront of the conscious mind. I like to call that a "Tarpitted" pool player. Poor sap!

-Sean

Well yes -- no doubt there is the possible issue of compensation for a flaw. BUT it is far more likely -- if we are talking about pro level play and stroke -- that pivoting brings them to a pure and straight line and stroke.

Udder than that I agree with everything Sean said

Lou Figueroa

 

[mlalum]

Well yes -- no doubt there is the possible issue of compensation for a flaw. BUT it is far more likely -- if we are talking about pro level play and stroke -- that pivoting brings them to a pure and straight line and stroke.

Udder than that I agree with everything Sean said

Lou Figueroa

You two are clearly pointing out what's obvious to the rest of the world. Systems only work for you if they work for you. Different people require different keys to get what they want done. I like to see people succeed. But to suggest what continues to be suggested by the CTE proponents seems just way over the top and over dramatized. And certainly way over defended. Why can't everyone just be happy with their respective religions and move on.

 

[perspicaz]

I doubt CTE is used on the break shot, IMHO.

 

[AtLarge]

I doubt CTE is used on the break shot, IMHO.

On Stan's DVD, Stevie Moore explains how he does use it on the break.

 

[perspicaz]

On Stan's DVD, Stevie Moore explains how he does use it on the break.

Interesting. Are you supposed to aim the head ball at a certain point on the table or is it a variation of CTE with no pocket involved?

I, myself, have already enough trouble hitting the head ball straight-on without pivoting.

 

[Joe T]

I think it works good on the break, as it does help line up for straight shots.

 

[TommyT]

I doubt CTE is used on the break shot, IMHO.

It's the only time I use it. I want to hit the head ball full in the face.

 

[champ2107]

just line it up like a strait in shot from anywhere u want behind the line and crush the rack like u never have before, been doin it for two years now. You can also aim at the second,third,etc ball.

 

[JB Cases]

My break is way better since beginning to use CTE to line up on the break. Regarding pros using CTE I doubt that you will find any outside of Stevie, Landon and Matt Krah who will admit to it. Most probably do a sort of natural form of CTE.

It is my observation after watching many pro matches that a lot of them do CTE-like movements when lining up and getting down on the shot. Therefore my theory on this is that how pros play for the most part is similar to how a CTE user plays. I think that coming into the shot from the side is probably a natural evolutionary thing that most pros don't even think about. They just do it because it's the best way for them to see the shot. I think.

Other than asking them however you can't really ever know how or why any pro does anything related to shot making. Unless they tell you.

 

[JB Cases]

I think it would behoove some of the CTE proponents to acknowledge that there are really only so many ways you can approach a pool shot. AND not everyone (probably nobody) who is pivoting in from left to right, or right to left, is doing so for any reason whatsoever to do with CTE. It just might (probably) be that it is the way they set up because they have found -- over time and through experimentation -- that doing that produces a nice, comfortable, accurate, reliable, and repeatable set up for them.

That's all.

I myself might pivot in from left to right. But I believe everyone here would be willing to admitted that the last thing I am doing is using CTE. So let us not jump to conclusions.

Puleeeseeee.

Lou Figueroa

Um, CTE proponents have said this forever. Maybe you aren't using CTE consciously but at the end of the day your set up and approach might be exactly like the same motions a CTE user does.

And anyway if you're right then it stands to reason that CTE could bring a shooter to the "professional" way of playing much faster than trial and error and shooting a million balls.

Wouldn't it just be great if someone could get there by shooting just a half million balls instead?

I think it's safe to assume that any player of average talent is going to get WAY better way faster if shown certain things than if left to flounder on their own.

Who knows? If you had learned CTE and not had to evolve into it through trail and error you might have become a contender. Instead you are just a very good player who occasionally snags a set from a champion. Just speculation though.

Better for us as we prefer you as a writer with the good trip reports.

 

[cookie man]

Folks:

There's a good point to this. Many of the pros don't realize that they may be compensating for something in his/her stroke. Let's take an example -- the grip hand. Since the hand is asymmetrical (i.e. you have two/three/four fingers on one side of the cue, and only one finger [the thumb] on the other), you have a symmetry problem. The hand is NOT a mechanically perfect device for delivering a cue in a straight line.

If you "look back there" and watch your grip hand when stroking the cue back and forth, you'll see a LOT of complex operations going on back there related to the fingers opening and closing, perhaps the rear fingers sliding up off the cue and sliding back onto it, etc. If I were to design a cradle to hold the cue to deliver it in a straight line, I couldn't think of a worse design than the human hand. I'd instead opt for a simple hinge that only allows forward and backward motion; it won't allow any side-to-side motion of the cue, nor involve any side-motion of the device itself (e.g. as what happens when your rear fingers slide off and back onto the cue). We've all heard of the "snatching/grabbing" the cue nastiness, right? Well, your hand is designed to do that -- its main purpose in life is gripping/grabbing, afterall! So, in order to minimize the jarring/bumping/throwing-the-cue-offline, you must make some adjustments to compensate. Those compensations may either be loosening the wrist, only letting the first two fingers grab the cue at any time, perhaps "pinching" the cue between the knuckles of the thumb and forefinger, etc.

When you put the human shooter in a stress situation -- e.g. a long shot or a shot that requires power -- sometimes the shooter is subconsciously aware that the heel of his/her hand "bumps" the cue during delivery. When the heel of the hand bumps the cue, it bumps the butt of the cue inwards towards your body. For a righthanded shooter, this means the butt of the cue gets bumped/thrown to the left (again, towards your body), which means the tip swings a bit to the right. Many pros compensate for this by aiming slightly to the left of where they actually want to shoot, and have calculated exactly how much "heel bump" throws the cue back on line, according to how much power and wrist snap they use.

Doubt me? Watch some of these pros' strokes from the overhead camera view. You'll see lining up and practice strokes that look like he/she will slightly overcut the ball. But when the final delivery stroke is applied, you'll see an OBVIOUS "hook" or "hitch" in the stroke that looks like a slight arc. For a right-handed player, you'll see the cue delivery arc to the right. This comes from the grip hand's heel bumping/pushing on that one side of the cue. Other pros address this problem by never letting his/her heel ever touch the cue (e.g. gripping the cue only with the first two fingers).

I know that pivot aimers are "Desperately Seeking Susan" when it comes to identifying pros using pivot aiming systems in videos. But like Lou, I think these efforts are roughly analogous to "when you've just walked out of the hardware store with the shiny new hammer you just bought, everything looks like a nail to you."

And like I've said before, I think folks are spending entirely too much time on this aiming system topic, as if it's the holy grail of pool greatness. Almost to the point of exclusivity! But in way, I think this topic of aiming systems is a sort of "LaBrea Tarpit," forever trapping those unwilling to trust their subconscious mind. Almost like there's a struggle for "control" by their conscious mind, and they have to forcibly keep the "aiming" part at the forefront of the conscious mind. I like to call that a "Tarpitted" pool player. Poor sap!

-Sean

Some good info here but to stay on topic with thread, are you saying no pro's would ever be using cte ? except stevie moore of course.

 

[perspicaz]

So CTE on the break is used to align a proper straight full-on shot on the head ball?

Maybe I'm weird, but I have no trouble aligning a straight-in shot... my problem relies in proper cue delivery when trying to hit them really hard. Looking at a spot on the cue ball has helped me enormously.
I know many people have trouble seeing/aiming straight-in shots though, but that is not my case.

On general shots, I aim mostly with a ghost ball method that seems natural to me. Although it has become more of a "feel" or memory where I'm semi-conciously compensating for squirt, swerve, throw, etc. Not a great player myself so :boring2:

 

[champ2107]

So CTE on the break is used to align a proper straight full-on shot on the head ball?

Maybe I'm weird, but I have no trouble aligning a straight-in shot... my problem relies in proper cue delivery when trying to hit them really hard. Looking at a spot on the cue ball has helped me enormously.
I know many people have trouble seeing/aiming straight-in shots though, but that is not my case.

On general shots, I aim mostly with a ghost ball method that seems natural to me. Although it has become more of a "feel" or memory where I'm semi-conciously compensating for squirt, swerve, throw, etc. Not a great player myself so :boring2:

Yes that is how i break with cte, you will hit the head ball square on! You use what ever breaking mechanics you normally use but line up the head ball using cte. Its great for 8 ball or if you just want to open them up nice.

 

[sfleinen]

Some good info here but to stay on topic with thread, are you saying no pro's would ever be using cte ? except stevie moore of course.

Hi Dave!

I am not saying "no pros would ever be using CTE." What I am saying are the following:

1. Whatever "system" the pros used to initially learn to aim, has long since been absorbed into their subconscious. Aiming is not a conscious concern anymore. I dare say that if you were to talk up to any pro (and I'm not talking the CTE guidon bearers like Stevie Moore, Matt Krah, et al.), and then ask him/her how he/she aims the shot, you most likely will get a pause -- they might have to think about the question. And then they might say, "I don't know, I aim 'here'." Or, they might explain to you variations of CP-to-CP aiming, ghostball, Back-of-ball, CTE, ferrule/shaft aiming, etc. The point is, the question itself causes them to have to think about the answer. It's not a conscious concern anymore.
   
   
2. With rare exceptions (e.g. Cowboy Jimmy Moore, Robb Saez), you won't find signs that a pro is pivoting. Are the pros you don't see using a perceptible pivot, instead "air pivoting"? Perhaps. But will you, as an observer, know it? I think not. It will be so natural to them that it'd been absorbed into his/her pre-shot routine long ago. And I dare say that at this level of play, the "steps" for CTE have long since been dissolved into their subconscious that that particular pro now uses a catalog-based aiming system. You know it as "feel." See the shot, see the solution instantly, line up on the shot, execute it. The problem is that people want to end-run the hard work it takes to become a great player. They want cheat codes to aiming, thinking it will help them bypass or end-run many years of hard work and experience to becoming a great player. Before I get into this one too heavy, let me leave it as the meat for the next bullet.
   
   
3. That aiming system threads are out of control. They're almost sublime, in fact; like a government conspiracy. The aiming system "X Files" with Mulder and Scully -- the "truth is out there." I mean, look at the title of *this* very thread as an example. "CTE use by pros on live streams." E.g.: "by golly, we're going to find evidence that a pro is using CTE if it kills us! Whoa, what was that movement he/she just made with the cue? Could that be... a pivot? CTE! CTE! CTE!" Come on folks, learn all you can (learn everything, in fact), find something that works for you, and WORK AT IT! Develop it. Practice it. Ingrain it. Make it second nature to where you don't have to think about it anymore. There are no shortcuts, no panaceas, no methods to end-running years of hard work and practice to becoming a good player. You have to put the work into it. And, as I alluded to in the previous bullet, I think *THAT* is the very problem. People think there's an "aiming system holy grail" out there, a "cheat code," if you will, that if they take the time to learn it, they'll magically pocket balls from all over the table, and... "their search is over -- they will be a 'player' to be reckoned with" without all the hard work. Sorry folks, there is no Santa Claus in this regard. Ya gots to put the work in to get to the level you want.

I hope that helps clarify it,
-Sean

 

[champ2107]

Hi Dave!

I am not saying "no pros would ever be using CTE." What I am saying are the following:

1. Whatever "system" the pros used to initially learn to aim, has long since been absorbed into their subconscious. Aiming is not a conscious concern anymore. I dare say that if you were to talk up to any pro (and I'm not talking the CTE guidon bearers like Stevie Moore, Matt Krah, et al.), and then ask him/her how he/she aims the shot, you most likely will get a pause -- they might have to think about the question. And then they might say, "I don't know, I aim 'here'." Or, they might explain to you variations of CP-to-CP aiming, ghostball, Back-of-ball, CTE, ferrule/shaft aiming, etc. The point is, the question itself causes them to have to think about the answer. It's not a conscious concern anymore.
   
   
2. With rare exceptions (e.g. Cowboy Jimmy Moore, Robb Saez), you won't find signs that a pro is pivoting. Are the pros you don't see using a perceptible pivot, instead "air pivoting"? Perhaps. But will you, as an observer, know it? I think not. It will be so natural to them that it'd been absorbed into his/her pre-shot routine long ago. And I dare say that at this level of play, the "steps" for CTE have long since been dissolved into their subconscious that that particular pro now uses a catalog-based aiming system. You know it as "feel." See the shot, see the solution instantly, line up on the shot, execute it. The problem is that people want to end-run the hard work it takes to become a great player. They want cheat codes to aiming, thinking it will help them bypass or end-run many years of hard work and experience to becoming a great player. Before I get into this one too heavy, let me leave it as the meat for the next bullet.
   
   
3. That aiming system threads are out of control. They're almost sublime, in fact; like a government conspiracy. The aiming system "X Files" with Mulder and Scully -- the "truth is out there." I mean, look at the title of *this* very thread as an example. "CTE use by pros on live streams." E.g.: "by golly, we're going to find evidence that a pro is using CTE if it kills us! Whoa, what was that movement he/she just made with the cue? Could that be... a pivot? CTE! CTE! CTE!" Come on folks, learn all you can (learn everything, in fact), find something that works for you, and WORK AT IT! Develop it. Practice it. Ingrain it. Make it second nature to where you don't have to think about it anymore. There are no shortcuts, no panaceas, no methods to end-running years of hard work and practice to becoming a good player. You have to put the work into it. And, as I alluded to in the previous bullet, I think *THAT* is the very problem. People think there's an "aiming system holy grail" out there, a "cheat code," if you will, that if they take the time to learn it, they'll magically pocket balls from all over the table, and... "their search is over -- they will be a 'player' to be reckoned with" without all the hard work. Sorry folks, there is no Santa Claus in this regard. Ya gots to put the work in to get to the level you want.

I hope that helps clarify it,
-Sean

I use cte and really couldnt care less if anyone else does or doesnt, thats his or her's own option but im just going to say this "explain to me what you have clarified other than giving your opinion?" Look back at the history of the cte threads on this board and follow them to this post, you will notice something. A year from now earl may come out of the closet and say he has used cte his whole career ... im just saying.