CTP2CTP Aiming

[Mikjary]

Mike,

It is amazing how much it isn't the aim but the stroke that causes errors in the shot.

I realize that it is my wrist that I cannot control in my delivery. So lately, I have let the cue go on the final forward stroke and catching it with my finger tips before it hits the table. This also keeps the cue travelling in a straight line rather than dipping.

Be well.

For me, those stroke errors go away with a correct visual alignment. I would think I was lined up well and I'd spasm on the stroke. No amount of fixes, like your stroke slip and catching the cue would solve all the problems. It's like a gremlin running around your stroke arm. You fix one problem and another pops up. :grin-square: When you're fixing 17 problems, it's the computer, not the machine.

I tried to change my grip, its tension, and everything related to it. I locked it, let it be super loose and every notch in between. One thing that worked for me was similar to what you're doing, but instead of doing it, I just thought about it and let it happen without physically doing it. Let me explain...

Did you ever notice how Efren has such a relaxed follow through after his stroke? He kind of does the stroke slip you're doing. He also uses his hand to get his spins on the cue ball very well. It looks like BHE and a swipe. Whatever it is, it's a relaxed movement and very smooth.

I tried to physically get my hand and wrist to relax, but that never worked. I relax by thinking about something else and not focusing on what I'm doing. I then allow my subconscious to take over. My method is one I've posted here before. It's so simple it's usually ignored as too basic and could never work.

It is simply, as I stand over the shot after doing my calculations, I imagine I'm getting ready to toss my cue underhanded at the object ball. I imagine I'm moving my back and forth and concentrating on hitting the object ball with it. Not hitting the cue ball, but hitting the object ball.

The cue ball becomes part of the stick by extension and my goal is to hit the object ball. I visualize the ball going into pocket and keep seeing my arm going back and forth fluidly getting ready to hit the object ball. This shifts my brain into a relaxed ready state and the cue slips through my hand with little tension.

Instead of telling my stroke to relax, I get it ready to work. It understands the picture in my mind instead of using words to try and control it. It also helps to get me to an automatic state after a few strokes and get out of the way so I can really relax. Just a Jedi mind trick I use. :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Yes, Initially, I tried CP2CP without using my cue, but parallax view and vision center errors got in my way so I resorted to using the cue.

I don't use the cue on what to me are cinch/dead in shots.

Be well.

I like to use my cue to line up to the contact point, too. With familiarity of the amount to pivot, I'll be able to adjust to the shot line as I move down into the shot. The tougher shots may always need the cue stick as a guide, especially at a distance.

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mike,

It is amazing how much it isn't the aim but the stroke that causes errors in the shot.

I realize that it is my wrist that I cannot control in my delivery. So lately, I have let the cue go on the final forward stroke and catching it with my finger tips before it hits the table. This also keeps the cue travelling in a straight line rather than dipping.

Be well.

I've narrowed my bit of inadvertent right english on certain shots down to my wrist/fingers doing it, but the actual cause may be my vision issues seeing the true straight line.

Fran Crimi's method of connecting to the cue with only the last three fingers works well but was a bit too uncomfortable for me as I've played a lot of other sports where I use my thumb & forefinger.

Another method that I tried was to 'tuck' the last two(2) fingers on top of the cue. It definitely has a good effect for me but it too is a bit uncomfortable for the long haul. I still use it for certain shots when I feel that that bit of right may be popping up.

As you know the wrist action & the connection to the cue have to go 'hand in hand'.:wink:

Then again, it all could come down to the feel based timing of the hit & the 'release' of the cue.

I know you know most if not all of this but I just thought hearing it said from another might help you or someone else.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[mohrt]

Aloha all,

For what it's worth, I've never read CTE/Pro1 or anything of the sort just to set the record straight, so I don't know how anything I do relates to any other method that anybody else uses or promotes. And just to let you know, I am not selling anything or promoting anything. I'm just sharing something that I think may be useful to players who are figuring out the basics and have not settled into a style yet.

Lots of people over the years have asked me how I aim and they are startled when I tell them how simple it is (for me).

I started playing pool before my teens and then worked in a pool hall for several years until I finished high school. I started as a banger, like everyone else, and then became so good that I could beat anyone in my area when I was 15 or 16. I used to play the old timers one pocket for $100 a game in the early 70s when I was working in the pool hall because nobody would play me 9-ball. When out-of-towners came in, I got plenty of action, because everybody thought they could beat a "kid" The owner would tell me to take whatever money I needed from the cash register and play whomever wanted to play what. I won WAY more times than I lost.

While learning to play and watching, I noticed that everybody seemed to be trying to figure out how to aim, while I always thought it was relative simple. Just hit the cue ball in the same spot that you wanted to hit the object ball in order to make it go in a line to the pocket.

It is kind of hard to explain, but easy to see when shown in person. For example if I want to cut the object ball 1/8 to the left, I just hit the cue ball on the left side 1/8 from the edge with my cue tip. That way the left 1/8 of the cue ball hits the right 1/8 of the object ball. I am aligning my cue tip to the "spot" on the object ball that I want to hit. I've heard SVB explain how he aims with the "edges" of his cue and his method may be similar to mine (He tries to explain his method here: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ-ohU0sJXE). With today's low deflection shafts, the cue ball goes "relatively" straight even if you hit off the vertical center of the cue ball. With that in mind, you can hit the cue ball from one edge to the other and it will still go straight unless you are elevating the cue which will cause swerve. When I am shooting an object ball at a 90 degree cut down a rail I am actually aiming the tip of my stick at the "EXTREME" edge of the cue ball because I want to hit the "EXTREME" edge of the object ball. The spot I am aiming at on the cue ball is a "mirror" image of the spot I want to hit the object ball, only every thing is reversed. I hit the inside edge of the cue ball in the same spot I want to hit the outside edge of the object ball. For straight in shots, it is a no brainer...center of cue ball to center of object ball. And for those of you who don't know it, straight in shots are the ONLY shots where you have a "built in" aiming reference point...the BOTTOM of the object ball. The tiny spot where the ball touches the table is the exact center of the ball...look below the ball at the table and aim at that SPOT...not the object ball itself.

One of the things you will quickly notice when you use this method is that you are aiming at the "inside" of the cue ball all the time when you are aiming. If you want to put a bit of outside, you adjust your whole cue over just a bit after you have made your alignment.

For lack of knowing what this method is called, I call it "Contact Point To Contact Point" aiming. I'll even give it a fancy acronym like "CP2CP" so it will sound like something special and important, but it is actually SIMPLE and ACCURATE.

The other day, one of the guys in the pool hall asked me if I was over 60 yet and I asked why and he said he didn't see many 60 year old guys running racks too often. I had just put a 5-pack on him and then made the 9 on the break in the 6th game and scratched. Shortly after that, I put a 3-pack on him and then made the 9 on the break again and scratched. It is getting harder and harder to run those at my age, but having made my game as "simple" as possible it makes it a bit easier to do than if I was trying to figure out where to aim every shot.

This method may not be for everyone, but it works for me.

Can you share how you calculate 1-2-3 rail banks? Do you use diamond systems to find the contact point on the OB? Do you shoot the CB off-center just the same?

 

[peppersauce]

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[LAMas]

1) I still don't understand how you aim with your tip CTP to CTP.

2) You can't put inside English on every single shot.

3) Also, there must be some kind of pivot involved and if you pivot to center ball from certain angles, you might miss the entire OB.

4) For example, a 45 degree cut from 7 ft away. If you were to line up CTP to CTP and pivot to center ball I don't think you would even hit the OB. What happens if you want to use outside English?

5)Do you line up CTP to CTP and pivot past center ball?

6)That might work if you hit it very hard and squirt to CB at the OB but how in the world would you control that? If you have to use outside with a soft stroke, I don't see that working at all.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't understand.

Thanks for your interest.

1) You establish an aim line with the full length of the cue aimed at the contact point on the CB (other side) while standing where you can see both balls and visualize the contact points as fraction about their equator. point the tip at the fraction on the OB with the tip of your cue on that line.

2) You start while standing with what may be where you could apply inside English, but you pivot the tip, with the axis being the grip hand, until the tip is aimed at the CB center - no more inside English and a new aim line.

3) When the CB and OB are close together, pivoting from the grip hand will impart only a 1 or 2 degree error that is not that significant and helps compensate for CIT.

4) That is where you need to move the cue parallel to the CP2CP line. You can do this by moving he grip hand the same distance from the CP on the OB to the center of the CB then move the bridge hand to the center of the CB. This will eliminate that 1 or 2 degree error and end the CB to contact the OB correctly at 7 feet.

5) No see above

6) You are shooting center ball with no squirt imparted.

I hope this helps.

Be well.

 

[mohrt]

Thanks for your interest.

1) You establish an aim line with the full length of the cue aimed at the contact point on the CB (other side) while standing where you can see both balls and visualize the contact points as fraction about their equator. point the tip at the fraction on the OB with the tip of your cue on that line.

2) You start while standing with what may be where you could apply inside English, but you pivot the tip, with the axis being the grip hand, until the tip is aimed at the CB center - no more inside English and a new aim line.

3) When the CB and OB are close together, pivoting from the grip hand will impart only a 1 or 2 degree error that is not that significant and helps compensate for CIT.

4) That is where you need to move the cue parallel to the CP2CP line. You can do this by moving he grip hand the same distance from the CP on the OB to the center of the CB then move the bridge hand to the center of the CB. This will eliminate that 1 or 2 degree error and end the CB to contact the OB correctly at 7 feet.

5) No see above

6) You are shooting center ball with no squirt imparted.

I hope this helps.

Be well.

I don't think the OP said anything about pivoting, he is merely shooting directly down the CTP2CTP line. So the steeper the cut, the farther off center-cue-ball the shot will be (inside spin.) Is that not what was stated?

 

[Mikjary]

I don't think the OP said anything about pivoting, he is merely shooting directly down the CTP2CTP line. So the steeper the cut, the farther off center-cue-ball the shot will be (inside spin.) Is that not what was stated?

No, he didn't mention a pivot. LAMas posted a variation on the OP's statement.

I've been playing around with both versions for something to do and expand my pool knowledge. Now I'm totally confused!

Best,
Mike

 

[peppersauce]

.................

 

[ENGLISH!]

Another way to phrase my question...if the OP places his cue on the CTP to CTP line on every shot, he's is shooting EVERY shot with inside english. No exceptions.

Now, if you want to make a shot with center ball, your cue MUST be on the line going through center CB that's parallel with the CTP to CTP line and stroke down that line. (I'm using center ball because that negates squirt and swerve for my example)

So then, how does the OP shoot a shot with center ball by first laying his cue on the CTP to CTP line? The only way is to pivot to center ball, in which case you are now aimed somewhere else and will not make the ball.

This is what I'm not understanding here. Is the OP saying he only uses inside english? Always? Without exception?

The Hawaiian will have to answer what he is actually doing.

But keep in mind the contact point to center pocket is not the actual contact point for some shots because of the collision induced throw.

I don't think anyone here is using a typical pivot like one does for BHE as I too see that resulting in missed shots.

But... Lamas has mentioned going to a 'parallel' shift for the higher angled cuts at distance.

Just some things to keep in mind. All methods have some adjustments, at least all of which I am aware.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[LAMas]

Another way to phrase my question...if the OP places his cue on the CTP to CTP line on every shot, he's is shooting EVERY shot with inside english. No exceptions.

Now, if you want to make a shot with center ball, your cue MUST be on the line going through center CB that's parallel with the CTP to CTP line and stroke down that line. (I'm using center ball because that negates squirt and swerve for my example)

So then, how does the OP shoot a shot with center ball by first laying his cue on the CTP to CTP line? The only way is to pivot to center ball, in which case you are now aimed somewhere else and will not make the ball.

This is what I'm not understanding here. Is the OP saying he only uses inside english? Always? Without exception?

Ditto...You will have to ask HawaiianEye.

I had a hard time making the 90 degree cuts using inside English with his method.

 

[Mikjary]

Ditto...You will have to ask HawaiianEye.

I had a hard time making the 90 degree cuts using inside English with his method.

The system you infected my game with cuts those 80+ degree cuts well.

I'm still getting used to certain shots, but I see some merit to it. It's going to be a while before I can easily get down without having to keep re-measuring the mirror images, but it's happening. I can only last an hour or so before I have to give my brain a rest. I'm just not used to thinking so much.

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI will help create a bigger pocket zone with any type of aiming method

Thank you. That is the method I am referring to. I don't know who figured it out first or who promoted it, but that is a tried and true method that actually works.

For those of you who haven't noticed yet, this could also be called "TOI" because every angle of hitting the object ball on a cut of any type is using the "inside" of the cue ball if you hit the actual aiming "spot" on the cue ball.

In some cases you will have way more than a "touch" of inside, but it all works out when utilized together.

That's right, players can't even "aim" at the contact points unless they use the inside of the cue ball. That's why TOI isn't an "aiming system," it's an overall playing system.

I'm not concerned with what kind of aiming method a player uses, the TOI will help create a bigger pocket zone.....and that, in it's self is worth the price of admission (which is actually free).

 

[fathomblue]

Hawaiian, could you.....or anyone.....make a quick YouTube video showing this? I'd like to see how this compares to CJ's TOI method.

Just a 1-2 minute video might make a lifetime's worth of difference.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Another way to phrase my question...if the OP places his cue on the CTP to CTP line on every shot, he's shooting EVERY shot with inside english. No exceptions.

Now if you want to make a shot with center ball, your cue MUST be on the line going through center CB that's parallel with the CTP to CTP line and stroke down that line. (I'm using center ball because that negates squirt and swerve for my example)

So then, how does the OP shoot a shot with center ball by first laying his cue on the CTP to CTP line? The only way is to pivot to center ball, in which case you are now aimed somewhere else and will not make the ball.

This is what I'm not understanding here. Is the OP saying he only uses inside english? Always? Without exception?

You are CORRECT, but I think we have some confusion. I am TRYING to use inside on every shot, if I have the choice. I plan my patterns to play the diamonds and stay with inside (as little as can get away with), always bringing the cue ball towards the inside and middle of the table and off the rails or into whatever "zone" I need the cue ball to go to.

I play the table by patterns and numbers, and mirror opposites. The entire table is a bunch of little diamonds and squares that all play identical angles as long as you can stay on a line. I try to keep all my OB angles shallow so that I am always hitting the cue ball "heavy" (not so far towards the edge). That way I always have the same feel when I'm hitting the ball so it allows me to adjust to the table speed better and I'm not having to go from cross rail to cross rail (back and forth between the short rails) unless I have to, When you get caught having to go back and forth a lot and need a sharp angle, you have to use "spin" more, which allows the cue ball to get loose a lot easier.

I know how my much my cue deflects, which allows me to "flex" the line a little and have the cue ball come into the "pocket" on the object ball, sort of like bowling if you think about it. My cue ball is always coming into the pocket like a regular strike when you bowl. When you use "outside" English, you are spinning away from the ball (pin) and hitting like a "backup ball"..

Unless your eyes work differently than mine, your cue is "never" pointed at the object ball if you are cutting a ball and using outside English, unless you are very close to the object ball. When you use inside English, your cue is on the same side as the line and the contact points on both balls. The width of the tip is close to about 3/8" or so and the object ball is 2 1/4. It isn't too hard to figure out a little shift of the whole cue over a bit to keep the same line as the contact points and allow you to hit center ball if you need to..

One "noticeable" thing is that it sounds like I'm hitting the balls harder than most people. And this is because I am...because I'm keeping the angles shallower, consistent, and hitting the balls fuller than most people do on almost every shot.I am "driving" the cue ball around the angles instead of "spinning" around the table. Driving allows me to hit the cue ball harder, which keeps it straighter on the line as the cue ball goes around the table.

It is way harder to explain than on a forum than it is to show someone and explain it on a table. If you can "visualize" the table with the angles and lines, all you have to do is find the line (not too hard) and stay on it (bit easier said than done). Try to keep all of your shots the "same". Try to feel as much of the 6 oz cue ball as you can. If you are feeling the weight of the cue ball it means you are hitting closer to the center of the cue ball on every shot. You want the same angle, the same speed, the same feel (weight) on every shot if you can see your pattern options and get that worked into your line as soon as possible.

Hope I confused everyone enough. It is midnight now and I got to get up for work at 4:30 A.M., so I guess I'll call it a night.

Aloha.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Can you share how you calculate 1-2-3 rail banks? Do you use diamond systems to find the contact point on the OB? Do you shoot the CB off-center just the same?

This guy can show you a lot of stuff with his free videos. He isn't a world champion, but he has a lot of stuff that will get you in the ballpark.

http://manningcues.com/

Aloha.

 

[peppersauce]

.................

 

[fathomblue]

This really does sound like how CJ plays, if I'm not mistaken, Hawaiian.

 

[ENGLISH!]

You are CORRECT, but I think we have some confusion. I am TRYING to use inside on every shot, if I have the choice. I plan my patterns to play the diamonds and stay with inside (as little as can get away with), always bringing the cue ball towards the inside and middle of the table and off the rails or into whatever "zone" I need the cue ball to go to.

I play the table by patterns and numbers, and mirror opposites. The entire table is a bunch of little diamonds and squares that all play identical angles as long as you can stay on a line. I try to keep all my OB angles shallow so that I am always hitting the cue ball "heavy" (not so far towards the edge). That way I always have the same feel when I'm hitting the ball so it allows me to adjust to the table speed better and I'm not having to go from cross rail to cross rail (back and forth between the short rails) unless I have to, When you get caught having to go back and forth a lot and need a sharp angle, you have to use "spin" more, which allows the cue ball to get loose a lot easier.

I know how my much my cue deflects, which allows me to "flex" the line a little and have the cue ball come into the "pocket" on the object ball, sort of like bowling if you think about it. My cue ball is always coming into the pocket like a regular strike when you bowl. When you use "outside" English, you are spinning away from the ball (pin) and hitting like a Brooklyn strike.

Unless your eyes work differently than mine, your cue is "never" pointed at the object ball if you are cutting a ball and using outside English, unless you are very close to the object ball. When you use inside English, your cue is on the same side as the line and the contact points on both balls. The width of the tip is close to about 3/8" or so and the object ball is 2 1/4. It isn't too hard to figure out a little shift of the whole cue over a bit to keep the same line as the contact points and allow you to hit center ball if you need to..

One "noticeable" thing is that it sounds like I'm hitting the balls harder than most people. And this is because I am...because I'm keeping the angles shallower, consistent, and hitting the balls fuller than most people do on almost every shot.I am "driving" the cue ball around the angles instead of "spinning" around the table. Driving allows me to hit the cue ball harder, which keeps it straighter on the line as the cue ball goes around the table.

It is way harder to explain than on a forum than it is to show someone and explain it on a table. If you can "visualize" the table with the angles and lines, all you have to do is find the line (not too hard) and stay on it (bit easier said than done). Try to keep all of your shots the "same". Try to feel as much of the 6 oz cue ball as you can. If you are feeling the weight of the cue ball it means you are hitting closer to the center of the cue ball on every shot. You want the same angle, the same speed, the same feel (weight) on every shot if you can see your pattern options and get that worked into your line as soon as possible.

Hope I confused everyone enough. It is midnight now and I got to get up for work at 4:30 A.M., so I guess I'll call it a night.

Aloha.

I think that is a fairly good explanation of how you play.

The thing is, IMO, it seems that many never 'feel' the cue ball. To me, that is very important. I'm not just talking about feeling it heavy.

I'm talking about not feeling it at all through their contact with it.

But that is a whole other topic & is much more difficult to discuss in text, if it even really can be.

I just noticed you talking about it & that told me something.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[Neil]

This guy can show you a lot of stuff with his free videos. He isn't a world champion, but he has a lot of stuff that will get you in the ballpark.

http://manningcues.com/

Aloha.

Sorry, but his videos have a lot of misinformation in them. Much better off watching Dr. Daves, Jimmy Reid's, Bert Kinisters, Jerry Briesaths videos.