Cue ball weight and balance point effect on squirt / deflection

kwoshunli

kwoshunli

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello All

TITLE: CUE WEIGHT , NOT CUE BALL WEIGHT. (sorry about that)
I have a custom cue made

weight: 18.5 oz

Shaft: low deflect shaft. with industrial foam inside.

balance point: slightly at the back of the usual typical cue (my cue doesn't have metal joint colar, only plastic)

I'm planning to have a metal joint colar placed so the weight would be 19oz and the balance point will be somehwere nearer the center (my preference)

Question: does cue weight and balance point have significant effect on squirt / deflection?

Please enlighten me so I can make the decision as to what kind of metal joint I need to have. (1 inch, 3/4, 1/2).

Thanks in advance!:grin-square:
 
Last edited:
Neil, thanks a lot!!
Now all I can see is "end mass" equations running through my head....grrr...
 
How much deflection do you consider "ideal"?

kwoshunli said:
Hello All

TITLE: CUE WEIGHT , NOT CUE BALL WEIGHT. (sorry about that)
I have a custom cue made

weight: 18.5 oz

Shaft: low deflect shaft. with industrial foam inside.

balance point: slightly at the back of the usual typical cue (my cue doesn't have metal joint colar, only plastic)

I'm planning to have a metal joint colar placed so the weight would be 19oz and the balance point will be somehwere nearer the center (my preference)

Question: does cue weight and balance point have significant effect on squirt / deflection?

Please enlighten me so I can make the decision as to what kind of metal joint I need to have. (1 inch, 3/4, 1/2).

Thanks in advance!:grin-square:
Click to expand...


What is your outcome? How much deflection do you consider "ideal"? Let's work backwards from there, and get you to where you want to be.
 
CJ Wiley said:
What is your outcome? How much deflection do you consider "ideal"? Let's work backwards from there, and get you to where you want to be.
Click to expand...

honestly, when i used the house cue (of the weight i like), both left and right english went to my aiming line.

Using my cue, left english goes to my aiming line,

right english usually deflects more. This is what surprises me really. I know about the endmass theory. But what i'm seeing is, with my personal cue's backward weight balance, my right english result isn't very desirable.
 
kwoshunli said:
honestly, when i used the house cue (of the weight i like), both left and right english went to my aiming line.

Using my cue, left english goes to my aiming line,

right english usually deflects more. This is what surprises me really. I know about the endmass theory. But what i'm seeing is, with my personal cue's backward weight balance, my right english result isn't very desirable.
Click to expand...

Then quit using right english. ;)
 
haha right.

I will stop using my right english. as much as I can. But i don't think i'll be happiest with that kind of answer lol.

Buying a house cue was an option, but i'd rather have my personal cue modify it's weight. I'm going to send it to the cue maker today.
 
kwoshunli said:
honestly, when i used the house cue (of the weight i like), both left and right english went to my aiming line.

Using my cue, left english goes to my aiming line,

right english usually deflects more. This is what surprises me really. I know about the endmass theory. But what i'm seeing is, with my personal cue's backward weight balance, my right english result isn't very desirable.
Click to expand...

The cue deflects, the cue ball squirts. How much it squirts is dependent on the stiffness of the shaft, the end mass of the shaft, and how far from vertical center you strike the cue ball. It is not dependent on what speed you strike with. If you get more squirt on one side of the cb than the other, with the same cue, it can only mean one thing- you are hitting two different distances from the vertical center line.

Now, knowing that, it is very possible that you can hit the cb correctly on both sides with the house cue because your fundamentals are a little flawed, and the balance of the house cue helps you keep the cue on a straight line. Whereas, with your cue, the balance being different, you actually are stroking it differently and not going straight.

If you really like the balance of the house cue, find the balance point and get your cue balanced in the same place.
 
Thank you very much sir,

Your response is very helpful.

Neil said:
The cue deflects, the cue ball squirts. How much it squirts is dependent on the stiffness of the shaft, the end mass of the shaft, and how far from vertical center you strike the cue ball. It is not dependent on what speed you strike with. If you get more squirt on one side of the cb than the other, with the same cue, it can only mean one thing- you are hitting two different distances from the vertical center line.

Now, knowing that, it is very possible that you can hit the cb correctly on both sides with the house cue because your fundamentals are a little flawed, and the balance of the house cue helps you keep the cue on a straight line. Whereas, with your cue, the balance being different, you actually are stroking it differently and not going straight.

If you really like the balance of the house cue, find the balance point and get your cue balanced in the same place.
Click to expand...
 
Neil said:
The cue deflects, the cue ball squirts. How much it squirts is dependent on the stiffness of the shaft, the end mass of the shaft, and how far from vertical center you strike the cue ball. It is not dependent on what speed you strike with. If you get more squirt on one side of the cb than the other, with the same cue, it can only mean one thing- you are hitting two different distances from the vertical center line.

Now, knowing that, it is very possible that you can hit the cb correctly on both sides with the house cue because your fundamentals are a little flawed, and the balance of the house cue helps you keep the cue on a straight line. Whereas, with your cue, the balance being different, you actually are stroking it differently and not going straight.

If you really like the balance of the house cue, find the balance point and get your cue balanced in the same place.
Click to expand...

That is a really good answer. If only we had more like that on AZ. A lot of posters on AZ seem to be beginners , and we were all there at one time. Thanks Neil.
 
Neil said:
The cue deflects, the cue ball squirts. How much it squirts is dependent on the stiffness of the shaft, the end mass of the shaft, and how far from vertical center you strike the cue ball. It is not dependent on what speed you strike with. If you get more squirt on one side of the cb than the other, with the same cue, it can only mean one thing- you are hitting two different distances from the vertical center line.

Now, knowing that, it is very possible that you can hit the cb correctly on both sides with the house cue because your fundamentals are a little flawed, and the balance of the house cue helps you keep the cue on a straight line. Whereas, with your cue, the balance being different, you actually are stroking it differently and not going straight.

If you really like the balance of the house cue, find the balance point and get your cue balanced in the same place.
Click to expand...

Neil, i like to add, the "end Mass" is really a vague term, i really do not think it is the end mass as much as allowing the cue to flex (if it is HD cue- low CB squirt cue), the longer the bridge, the higher the flex, opposite is true too, also how tight is your bridge, how loose is the butt grip, and how hard you stroke, all factors. One more important factor, is the distance between bridge hand and butt hand determines the squirt amount plus how much tip of english you have (talking about fast shots where swerve and stun out of the picture), I do not think cue balance has direct effect on squirt.
 
naji said:
Neil, i like to add, the "end Mass" is really a vague term, i really do not think it is the end mass as much as allowing the cue to flex (if it is HD cue- low CB squirt cue), the longer the bridge, the higher the flex, opposite is true too, also how tight is your bridge, how loose is the butt grip, and how hard you stroke, all factors. One more important factor, is the distance between bridge hand and butt hand determines the squirt amount plus how much tip of english you have (talking about fast shots where swerve and stun out of the picture), I do not think cue balance has direct effect on squirt.
Click to expand...
Can you demonstrate any of this? Most of it is contrary to the present understanding of squirt.
 
naji said:
Neil, i like to add, the "end Mass" is really a vague term, i really do not think it is the end mass as much as allowing the cue to flex (if it is HD cue- low CB squirt cue), the longer the bridge, the higher the flex, opposite is true too, also how tight is your bridge, how loose is the butt grip, and how hard you stroke, all factors. One more important factor, is the distance between bridge hand and butt hand determines the squirt amount plus how much tip of english you have (talking about fast shots where swerve and stun out of the picture), I do not think cue balance has direct effect on squirt.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, I did not say that cue balance has an effect on squirt. I DID say that cue balance CAN have an effect on stroking straight and hitting the cb where you want to.

As Bob said, can you show any tests relating to your claims on squirt? All the other tests that have been done show basically the opposite of what you are claiming.
 
Does bridge placement behind CB change Squirt?

The diagram below (from "Fundamentals - Part IV: bridge length" - BD, December, 2008) shows how a change in "effective pivot length" changes the amount of cut. The diagram shows two different bridge positions, but it could also represent two different "effective cue-pivot-points" created by a non-rigid-bridge pivot method (see more below).

aim_bridge.jpg

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#English_effects
 
Overthink

After teaching for many years, and then reading the title of your thread, your question reminded me of one student/engineer masters degree. From my pt of view the question is very nebulous. I'm sure you can get allot of technical info out there with measurements and wts and such, but how much benefit would you get? Personally would rather talk to you first to understand how you think, then watch you play, only then would I be able to come up with a helpful response. TLI at this point. Good luck with whatever you really want from the responders.
 
Thank you all for your responses!

I wish I have the luxury to make a video and show everyone. as much info I can get from this forum, I appreciate.

I don't really mind having some kind of debates going on because that only brings me to learn more things.

I'm only a C player, trying to improve. I don't mind listening better players argue with their ideas. ;) Just keep them professional and no below the belt posts.:grin::D
 
kwoshunli said:
Thank you all for your responses!

I wish I have the luxury to make a video and show everyone. as much info I can get from this forum, I appreciate.

I don't really mind having some kind of debates going on because that only brings me to learn more things.

I'm only a C player, trying to improve. I don't mind listening better players argue with their ideas. ;) Just keep them professional and no below the belt posts.:grin::D
Click to expand...

Learn to cut all balls in with natural rolling top center cue ball. This cueing allows the cue ball to roll naturally ''immediately''. This is your baseline. Yrs' ago I did a confrence with Allison at the BCA trade show, and when someone asked her a similar question, it was her same response. You need to first learn to make balls this way to begin getting a feel of cue ball speed. Once thats in place your ready to move on. When a pro looks at a shot he ALWAYS would rather shoot a natural rolling ball to get shape than any other type of cueing, why, its the highest percentage shot because its natural and you can get control/feel and develop muscle memory of cue ball speed allot quicker.
 
Island Drive said:
Learn to cut all balls in with natural rolling top center cue ball. This cueing allows the cue ball to roll naturally ''immediately''. This is your baseline. Yrs' ago I did a confrence with Allison at the BCA trade show, and when someone asked her a similar question, it was her same response. You need to first learn to make balls this way to begin getting a feel of cue ball speed. Once thats in place your ready to move on. When a pro looks at a shot he ALWAYS would rather shoot a natural rolling ball to get shape than any other type of cueing, why, its the highest percentage shot because its natural and you can get control/feel and develop muscle memory of cue ball speed allot quicker.
Click to expand...

I Agree! ;)
 
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