Cue Design Theft This Crap Needs To Stop!!!!

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John,
Why do you always bring the best out of people? You perpetually put the "D" in Drama Queen.

It's a talent. When they can't compete in the logic department they resort to insults and threats of violence.

This forum SHOULD be about DISCUSSING the topic at hand, not the perceived character of the person making the points.
 
John,

Nice to see you making yet another appearance in these types of posts. I have something that I really feel that I need to get of my chest.

For the past few months I have been kicking around the idea of buying a new case. And When I first saw your Jay Flowers type case I really liked these cases and I thought well there's a case that I would like to own.

However as the months went by and after reading my fair share of your posts here on AZB I have come to the decision that I will never own or buy a product from you. Why ? I cannot allow myself to support a former or current American citizen that has the opinion that you do.

While I respect the fact that all people should be allowed to state their opinion as a business man you have lost all of my business forever.

So in closing my money is going to an American Casemaker, I'm sure I'll be very happy with my new Ron Thomas case that I just ordered. I know that Ron was very happy to take my order and I feel much better knowing that my money is going to a American citizen and not someone such as yourself.

Take it however you want John but I feel you have crossed the line with many members here and your rants are now costing you $$$$

Have a nice day,

Frank

Ok, I will. I feel that you should back up your convictions and vote with your dollars. If you think that you are going censor me or silence me by administering a virtual "spanking" then you are dead wrong.

I get plenty of business from people outside the USA who don't wrap themselves in the flag and attempt to exclude the world.

I don't really get what about this thread is upsetting you though. What is it about what I have said here that upsets you.

And exactly what opinion is is that you find so controversial?

I believe in the Constitution of the United States. I believe wholeheartedly in the Declaration of Independence.

Do you believe in those things?

What is your opinion of design theft?

Do you believe that any person who makes a case that is like any other person's case is guilty of it?

If so then you know that Mr. Ron Thomas's cases are derived from those that It's George and Centennial built.

If you truly want to give your money to a USA based case maker who does original designs then try Whitten or Garth Bair at On Q.

Believe me when I tell you Frank that your business means nothing to me. I am the last person in the world who will suck up to you or anyone else to get your business.

You and others who try to use this "will never buy from you" line to get me to shut up are the kind of people I prefer not to sell to. So the feeling is mutual. If however you change you mind and decide that you want a better product then I will be happy to sell you a case as I am concerned about protecting your cue despite your particular beliefs.
 
It's a talent. When they can't compete in the logic department they resort to insults and threats of violence.

This forum SHOULD be about DISCUSSING the topic at hand, not the perceived character of the person making the points.

Ahhh your favorite method. Ignore the character. Similar to the way you blindly defended the IPT and KT. John your delusional. No one here is intimidated with your intellect, logic, business acumen or case artistry. Your methods are transparent. Find conflict and pour accelerant.
 
Ahhh your favorite method. Ignore the character. Similar to the way you blindly defended the IPT and KT. John your delusional. No one here is intimidated with your intellect, logic, business acumen or case artistry. Your methods are transparent. Find conflict and pour accelerant.

I didn't blindly defend the IPT Nick. I said give it a chance.

No one here should be intimidated by me. I am just another person giving my opinion, an opinion that is formed by my own experiences.

I happen to be in a position to present an alternate perspective on several hot button issues on this forum due to my varied experiences inside the billiard industry these past 20 years.

You and many others here often seem to forget and ignore the fact that AZ Billiards is a worldwide community now. You should be especially mindful of it since you are Canadian.

Why you allow bigoted, hateful and ignorant comments against foreigners and foreign lands to stand unchallenged is beyond me?

I told you I would be the first to stand up and denounce Kevin Trudeau and the IPT should it fail. But unlike you I wasn't working to actively undermine with negativity while it was going on.

You on the other hand got on your high horse and condemned Trudeau for his past trangressions and sought to pepper AZB with plenty of negativity. Funnily though your employer at the time was found to have committed plenty of heinous human rights abuses around the world.

So while you were busy condemning me for supporting the idea of the IPT and leaving Kevin Trudea's character out of it you were and probably still are taking money from a company that has degraded the lives of thousands around the world.

It's a messy world, none of us here are saints and least among them, me. But I am probably the only one with the cojones to stand before my community and say that and lay out what I think about issues.

You would think that people who say they value freedom would respect a person more who is open about how they feel on certain issues and backs up his statements with real world experience.

Guess not.
 
Believe me when I tell you Frank that your business means nothing to me. I am the last person in the world who will suck up to you or anyone else to get your business.

Glad to know you feel this way John. Now after saying this please stop pushing your products on AZB and just get back to discussing the game of pool. Since you have made it known that the forums business means nothing to you.
 
Glad to know you feel this way John. Now after saying this please stop pushing your products on AZB and just get back to discussing the game of pool. Since you have made it known that the forums business means nothing to you.

I didn't say that the "forum's business" means nothing to me. I said YOUR business means nothing to me.

Anyone who thinks that they can shut me up by pulling out the tired old "take my business elsewhere" line is someone I don't really care if I sell something to or not.

The only reason you use it is to chastise me and attempt to make me behave as you wish me to.

I get plenty of business from the forum. Believe it or not there are actually people in the world who think along the same lines as I do.

And as I mentioned before my two best friends in the world have politics that are exactly opposite from mine. I'd step in front of a bullet for either of them and they would do the same for me. (might be needed when Snipershot Joe comes around)

I'd bet that you don't send out a questionaire to people you are going to buy from to see if their life views are aligned with yours. So basically you are singling me out because I am open on this forum.

So forgive me if I take your advice with a grain of salt.

People on this forum mean a lot to me. Enough that I am willing to risk losing the business of some of them in order to bring the whole group a perspective based on my own 20 year career in the billiard industry.

That's got to be better than the guy who drops in every once in while to sell you something.

Plus I'd still like to know what lines I crossed? It's awfully confusing for you to administer a public spanking and tell me I have been a bad boy and not tell me what exactly it is that I did.
 
I didn't blindly defend the IPT Nick. I said give it a chance.

No one here should be intimidated by me. I am just another person giving my opinion, an opinion that is formed by my own experiences.

I happen to be in a position to present an alternate perspective on several hot button issues on this forum due to my varied experiences inside the billiard industry these past 20 years.

You and many others here often seem to forget and ignore the fact that AZ Billiards is a worldwide community now. You should be especially mindful of it since you are Canadian.

Why you allow bigoted, hateful and ignorant comments against foreigners and foreign lands to stand unchallenged is beyond me?

I told you I would be the first to stand up and denounce Kevin Trudeau and the IPT should it fail. But unlike you I wasn't working to actively undermine with negativity while it was going on.

You on the other hand got on your high horse and condemned Trudeau for his past transgressions and sought to pepper AZB with plenty of negativity. Funnily though your employer at the time was found to have committed plenty of heinous human rights abuses around the world.

So while you were busy condemning me for supporting the idea of the IPT and leaving Kevin Trudea's character out of it you were and probably still are taking money from a company that has degraded the lives of thousands around the world.

It's a messy world, none of us here are saints and least among them, me. But I am probably the only one with the cojones to stand before my community and say that and lay out what I think about issues.

You would think that people who say they value freedom would respect a person more who is open about how they feel on certain issues and backs up his statements with real world experience.

Guess not.

Nice John. Yes I'm Canadian. I stated that KT would do what he did because it's outrageous to believe he is capable of doing otherwise. Would you give a convicted pedophile a job in a daycare center?

Stick to facts John. Don't flame. Nice try bringing my employer into it. Sixty year old issues. Manwon did not like the knockoffs and as per usual you like to stir the pot. If the American's on this site are proud of their country and history. I'm happy for them. They have a lot to be proud of. I sleep better at night that our best friend has more F18's than god at my side.
 
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I'd bet that you don't send out a questionnaire to people you are going to buy from to see if their life views are aligned with yours. So basically you are singling me out because I am open on this forum.

No of course I wouldn't send a questionnaire out people I'm going to buy goods or services from. But I really think what you fail to realize is that your openness on this forum is what drove me away from buying a case from you. However if you would have never posted your political thoughts here, I would have bought one of your cases.

And like I said in the previous post every person is allowed to have their own opinion on issues and that is something I value.
 
Nice John. Yes I'm Canadian. I stated that KT would do what he did because it's outrageous to believe he is incapable of doing otherwise. Would you give a convicted pedophile a job in a daycare center?

Stick to facts John. Don't flame. Nice try bringing my employer into it. Sixty year old issues. Manwon did not like the knockoffs and as per usual you like to stir the pot. If the American's on this site are proud of their country and history. I'm happy for them. They have a lot to be proud of. I sleep better at night that our best friend has more F18's than god at my side.

No, I would not give a convicted pedophile a job in a day care center. However I would try to give the convicted pedophile some kind of chance to redeem themselves in society.

The fact was with the IPT that it represented a chance for professionals to really be like professionals. I felt that MAYBE Trudeau was using it as a way to go legit. And because of that at least the IPT for itself should be given a chance.

I never said ignore Trudeau's past. I never said don't proceed with caution. I said don't work to actively undermine it. Which is what you and other did.

As for Americans being proud of their country and history I definitely do not agree with you that making uninformed, bigoted, racist comments shows pride in America. An American who is proud of their history is one who is proud of the melting pot and the tolerance that America is built on. An American who is proud of our history and loves our country uses the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights as their compass and not the headlines on Fox News.

Throughout history it's people like me who take the controversial viewpoint that engender change.

People like me make other aware that there is another side to the story and hopefully make people stop and consider it.

Unfortunately, the world is full of people like you who get stuck on one point and refuse to entertain any other perspective.

I can understand statements made out of ignorance. Before I started traveling the world I had a lot of ignorant beliefs as well. Now, with the net it's possible to at least read about and even meet people all over the world. One does not have to hold on to ignorant beliefs. Which is why it's so confusing to me why people like you and Joe continue to do so.

As for the earlier comment about accelerant, I believe that Craig Rittel is the forum's resident firebug in that category.

This very thread he attacks the easy target, the pitiful and despicable Carl's Cues and gets exactly the predictable response while willfully ignoring actions of the very dealers he openly supports and makes money off of. I guess he was hoping no one would challenge him.
 
Man..to be honest..I HATE to see peopl eon here bickering like this.....this really sucks. People come on here to ENJOY pool and all thats related to pool and we have to here all this CRAP!......and thats exactly what it is...its CRAP!

I know this thread is about design theft....but GOOD LORD! People will copy and try to make better any product out there....can you really blame them.

This crap really needs to stop.

I wish they would have a feature where you could put an ENTIRE THREAD on ignore.....

I am sure (at least I hope) that I am not the only one that does not want to hear this junk.

Well, I know this wont ever stop because of childish people...I know I have done this type of thing in the past so yes, I am just as guilty as everyone in this thread. I just wish we could be more civil about this!

Anyways....go on kids...and argue till your blue in the face, do you really think it will accomplish anything?
 
What is your opinion of design theft?

Do you believe that any person who makes a case that is like any other person's case is guilty of it?

I believe that more manufacturers and small businesses should at least attempt to legally cover themselves a little better by using our laws more effectively, especially patents, trademarks and copyrights. I know it's hard for small business but at times I think there is enough money at stake to make the investment.

Joe Porper has often expressed regrets that he didn't patent his injected foam core case. I don't have an opinion as to whether the design was even subject to patent, but to this day Joe feels that he really messed up by not covering himself better.

Concerning e-bay, I was selling cues and magic items for Joe some years ago on e-bay, and at the time a lot of sellers were selling cases that weren't Creative Inventions but they used the name "Porper' - especially in selling a copy of his cue pads and his big 12X24 rolling case. I asked Joe if he wanted me to do something about it. He said yes and I contacted the sellers with a polite letter asking them to not use his name in their ads. Each one readily agreed and I think they were a little surprised to be called out on it.

Even with patents, copyrights, and trademarks it's very difficult and expensive for manufactures to go after these offshore companies, but the sellers are easier to go after.

John, I don't know if you tried to copyright your designs on the Instroke, but I do think your cases were unique and novel. They were copied mercilessly too.

By the way, these Meucci's (and others) decal design copies were around long before Carl started selling them. I probably saw the first Gambler and Rose cue copies 6 or 7 years ago.

Chris
 
No of course I wouldn't send a questionnaire out people I'm going to buy goods or services from. But I really think what you fail to realize is that your openness on this forum is what drove me away from buying a case from you. However if you would have never posted your political thoughts here, I would have bought one of your cases.

And like I said in the previous post every person is allowed to have their own opinion on issues and that is something I value.

That's fine. But you could have kept your opinion to yourself and just not bought a case.

So what was the purpose of telling me about your decision?

What is that supposed to accomplish if not to publicly chastise me and get me to change how I conduct myself here.

In fact, one prominent member of this forum said a few threads ago that he believes just as I do and for that reason above others he WILL buy a case from me.

So following that post what do you suggest I do? Should I just be quiet about issues and advertise my products like others do?

So when someone makes a false and malicious comment about something that I happen to know the facts about do you suggest that I don't say anything?

I am really not sure what your purpose is here if not to attempt to silence me?
 
I would buy a case from John..in a heartbeat. He makes very nice cases.....But, I think what stands him apart, is he is true to himself. I also want my cues PROTECTED....I feel Johns cases are some of the best out there.. I dont have anything against, a Justis....or anyone else...I will probably own one from every casemaker at some point or another.

I am all for Buy American...but, if I can get something better, that suits me more..and its made in China..I will buy it. So does that make me a Sellout?
 
No, I would not give a convicted pedophile a job in a day care center. However I would try to give the convicted pedophile some kind of chance to redeem themselves in society.

The fact was with the IPT that it represented a chance for professionals to really be like professionals. I felt that MAYBE Trudeau was using it as a way to go legit. And because of that at least the IPT for itself should be given a chance.

I never said ignore Trudeau's past. I never said don't proceed with caution. I said don't work to actively undermine it. Which is what you and other did.

As for Americans being proud of their country and history I definitely do not agree with you that making uninformed, bigoted, racist comments shows pride in America. An American who is proud of their history is one who is proud of the melting pot and the tolerance that America is built on. An American who is proud of our history and loves our country uses the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights as their compass and not the headlines on Fox News.

Throughout history it's people like me who take the controversial viewpoint that engender change.

People like me make other aware that there is another side to the story and hopefully make people stop and consider it.

Unfortunately, the world is full of people like you who get stuck on one point and refuse to entertain any other perspective.

I can understand statements made out of ignorance. Before I started traveling the world I had a lot of ignorant beliefs as well. Now, with the net it's possible to at least read about and even meet people all over the world. One does not have to hold on to ignorant beliefs. Which is why it's so confusing to me why people like you and Joe continue to do so.

As for the earlier comment about accelerant, I believe that Craig Rittel is the forum's resident firebug in that category.

This very thread he attacks the easy target, the pitiful and despicable Carl's Cues and gets exactly the predictable response while willfully ignoring actions of the very dealers he openly supports and makes money off of. I guess he was hoping no one would challenge him.

Let's be accurate here.

1. KT was running a obvious Ponzi scam. I was shown to be right. You at the time simply yelled down anyone who didn't drink from the challis of lies.

2. I made no bigoted comments. Stop deflecting.

3. I have traveled the world and done business in China. My employer operates in a 191 countries. Bringing skills and ideas from all cultures. You know nothing about me. Why do you assume your better traveled?

Let me ask you a personal question. How many failed marriages have you had? I would assume you must have burned through at least 3 women by now.
 
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I believe that more manufacturers and small businesses should at least attempt to legally cover themselves a little better by using our laws more effectively, especially patents, trademarks and copyrights. I know it's hard for small business but at times I think there is enough money at stake to make the investment.

Joe Porper has often expressed regrets that he didn't patent his injected foam core case. I don't have an opinion as to whether the design was even subject to patent, but to this day Joe feels that he really messed up by not covering himself better.

Concerning e-bay, I was selling cues and magic items for Joe some years ago on e-bay, and at the time a lot of sellers were selling cases that weren't Creative Inventions but they used the name "Porper' - especially in selling a copy of his cue pads and his big 12X24 rolling case. I asked Joe if he wanted me to do something about it. He said yes and I contacted the sellers with a polite letter asking them to not use his name in their ads. Each one readily agreed and I think they were a little surprised to be called out on it.

Even with patents, copyrights, and trademarks it's very difficult and expensive for manufactures to go after these offshore companies, but the sellers are easier to go after.

John, I don't know if you tried to copyright your designs on the Instroke, but I do think your cases were unique and novel. They were copied mercilessly too.

By the way, these Meucci's (and others) decal design copies were around long before Carl started selling them. I probably saw the first Gambler and Rose cue copies 6 or 7 years ago.

Chris



By the way, these Meucci's (and others) decal design copies were around long before Carl started selling them. I probably saw the first Gambler and Rose cue copies 6 or 7 years ago.

Chris the cue that are currently being brought into0 the US are not for sale by any of the current distributers as catalog items. I have also seen some of the older knock off cues, including a decal Road Agent Model. I suspect that Mr Carl from Carls cues is having this current group of cues made, along with some knock off Joss Cues.

Take care Chris
 
I believe that more manufacturers and small businesses should at least attempt to legally cover themselves a little better by using our laws more effectively, especially patents, trademarks and copyrights. I know it's hard for small business but at times I think there is enough money at stake to make the investment.

I fully agree. Most of us don't factor in the cost of patents and trademark registrations when we start out. Sadly the other part of it is having enough money to defend your patent or trademark when it comes up.

Joe Porper has often expressed regrets that he didn't patent his injected foam core case. I don't have an opinion as to whether the design was even subject to patent, but to this day Joe feels that he really messed up by not covering himself better.

I agree with this 100% - if anything was patentable as a bonafide improvement then it is the injection molded foam core case.

You may however be interested to know that the first company that was contacted to copy Porper's case had no idea how to do it. That company was making only box cases at the time and they built a square box and used cardboard tubes inside of it to emulate the Porper case. Unfortunately for them they built the box using staples so it fell apart rather quickly. Unfortunately for Porper it didn't take long for them to figure out how to make the foam core interiors.

Concerning e-bay, I was selling cues and magic items for Joe some years ago on e-bay, and at the time a lot of sellers were selling cases that weren't Creative Inventions but they used the name "Porper' - especially in selling a copy of his cue pads and his big 12X24 rolling case. I asked Joe if he wanted me to do something about it. He said yes and I contacted the sellers with a polite letter asking them to not use his name in their ads. Each one readily agreed and I think they were a little surprised to be called out on it.

I did the same with Instroke with some success.

Even with patents, copyrights, and trademarks it's very difficult and expensive for manufactures to go after these offshore companies, but the sellers are easier to go after.

I fully agree. The thing is that the offshore companies have no legal responsibility to NOT make something that is not protected in their country. It's the people who import into the USA who are breaking the law if they import copies. But the law is very tricky here and these unscrupulous companies exploit every trick they can to skirt it.

John, I don't know if you tried to copyright your designs on the Instroke, but I do think your cases were unique and novel. They were copied mercilessly too.

I found that I couldn't copyright an ornamental design on a utilitarian product. If something has a useful function as in a case or a T-shirt then it cannot be copyrighted. So that leaves design patents which are very strict and allow for subtle changes to effectively destroy a claim of infringement.

I had some success as you did, by asking people to refrain from using my trademark in comparative ways. I was also somewhat successful in getting people to not use my copyrighted descriptions verbatim. Overall though it did nothing to stem the tide of knockoffs.

By the way, these Meucci's (and others) decal design copies were around long before Carl started selling them. I probably saw the first Gambler and Rose cue copies 6 or 7 years ago.

Chris

They have been around longer than that. In the late 80's and early 90's the only cues on the market from Asia were mostly Meucci and McDermott knockoffs.

The funny thing about Carl's Cues is that he even has a knockoff of a Fury design on sale.

As for the whole design theft thing. I am against it but ambivalent about it as well.

Just last week I was at the ICCS and was fortunate to meet Dennis Glenn, of the famous Glenn collection in Texas.

He brought many fine old cases from the past.

I found out that Ernie Gutierrez of Gina did the first Fellini style case BEFORE Fellini. Fellini's version was larger but essentially was an exact copy of Gina's case.

And Harvey Martin was doing folded leather end cases with slip on caps before Gina.

So all of these cases are derivatives of each other in some way or another.

I have a bombshell that no one will believe about cases. I have to verify it first but if true it will blow away a lot of people assumptions about "quality" and "made in".

Anyway, I digress.
 
That's fine. But you could have kept your opinion to yourself and just not bought a case.

So what was the purpose of telling me about your decision?

What is that supposed to accomplish if not to publicly chastise me and get me to change how I conduct myself here.

In fact, one prominent member of this forum said a few threads ago that he believes just as I do and for that reason above others he WILL buy a case from me.

So following that post what do you suggest I do? Should I just be quiet about issues and advertise my products like others do?

So when someone makes a false and malicious comment about something that I happen to know the facts about do you suggest that I don't say anything?

I am really not sure what your purpose is here if not to attempt to silence me?

John,

I really think that you missed my point of my posts. I'm sure there are alot of members that will buy your cases. However there are members here such as myself that will not due to your openness here.

However I'm sure there are a few other Businessmen here that have views that people feel strongly enough about that they may decide to not support them. But they keep quiet and their customers are none the wiser.

In closing if you can afford to lose $$$ from customers like me then by all means keep posting your personal views on these issues.

Congratulations you must be a rich man
 
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