Cue finish problems

2012ballen2012

New member
This is my second attempt at finishing a cue with epoxy base coat (west system) and CA finish. First time was a house cue that I made into a J/B cue. I have just finished building my first cue (big thanks to everyone that shares there knowledge on this forum) and after putting the epoxy base coat. I sanded it down with 100 grit then 220 and have some kind of ghosting effect happening. Any ideas what i may have down wrong. Thanks,
 

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scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Hi,

You burned thru the coating thickness.

100 is too aggressive.

You need to know the exact thickness of your adhesion coat and also the finish coat as referenced to the finished joint dimension.

Try .012 + on your epoxy. I use 3 coats applied 10 minute between coats on a 30 minute epoxy. This way you won't have to do 3 coats that cure and need scratching. This is a monolithic techique.

After applying the epoxy and letting it fully cure you can use 320 to flat sand down to +.006 or .003 per side total. Then apply your finish to over your joint size so you can sand to your exact joint dimension. You can do the math backwards depending on your finish mill thickness.

Hope this helps you.

Rick
 
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whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
I do an epoxy base coat and sand it with 100 then 220............ then Solarez UV finish.............. never had a problem............ you either didn't sand enough or too much............ take it down to the wood and start over

\
 

2012ballen2012

New member
Thanks for the replies. Thought I might mention too. The first time I finished a cue, I used Devcon 5 minute epoxy. this time I tried west system 105/206. Should I have used 105/207 instead. Could this have been the problem.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member

2012ballen2012

New member
As a matter of fact, I did read that page. Guess I didn't quite understand. Thought the 105/206 was ok to use as a base coat with the 105/207 as a finish coat
 

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Thanks for the replies. Thought I might mention too. The first time I finished a cue, I used Devcon 5 minute epoxy. this time I tried west system 105/206. Should I have used 105/207 instead. Could this have been the problem.



Fyi,

105 206 goes on clear but yellows on white.
 

Mcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As a matter of fact, I did read that page. Guess I didn't quite understand. Thought the 105/206 was ok to use as a base coat with the 105/207 as a finish coat

You can use 105/207 as the base coat and finishing coat. You have to apply three coats over three days. Start sanding with 320 lightly to flatten, then work your way up to 1000 apply next coat. Last coat to 2000.
If you can have the cue turning slowly on the lathe for the first 20 minutes after applying the epoxy it will help with an even distribution.

Mario
 

2012ballen2012

New member
Thanks again for the help. I will sand down back to the wood and get some 207. Is it ok to put a light coat of boiled linseed oil on the wood. really like the color it brings out of the wood?
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
207 dries clear. It's important that you mix the epoxy well and prefreably have heated it before you apply the epoxy. When spreading the epoxy, make sure you really rub it in, then level it out with a playing card.
100 grit is way to rough, try 300 - 400 grit.
Sometimes you sand through and you have to add a second coat.
As Rick mentioned, make sure you know your dimensions before adding epoxy, so you know how thick your basecoat actually is. Obvously you will need a micrometer for this.
Another point is that make sure you give the epoxy plenty of time to dry and that the temperature in the room is atleast 20c/68f.
personally I prefer BSI Finish Cure in the small bottles, less waste and I can just pop the bottles in a bowl of hot water, wich makes it water thin and thus penetrates every pore.
 

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Concerning shrinkage of coatings.

Many cue makers coat their cues one day, wait a day or two, sand then prep and spray clear coat. This is a problematic procedure. Why? All epoxies have a set time. 5, 30, 60 min or 24 hrs. All epoxies set time is listed on the container. The critical factor is cure time. The 100% cure time is always 7 days with the materials we cue makers are familiar with.

So if you sand in 2 days and clear coat over that adhesion coat the cue will still be curing and still shrinking under a premature application of your clear.

So after applying your epoxy, you must be patient for at least a week at 72 degrees.

Just saying,

Rick

PS. The slower the set time the more initial shrinkage.

I did an experiment 15 years ago. I took 3 ferrules, taped the bottoms. Then filled them to the top with G5, 30 min, and 207/105. After the epoxies set, the G5 was about .100 shrunk from the top. The 30 min was about .200 and the west system was closer to .250. That is a 25% shrinkage in the 1" ferrule.

When you consider the volumetric differential, it is huge. The shrinkage that occurs for the next 6 days can not be visually seen but even a 1/2 of a % shrinkage under a clear coat that is also curing is a compunding problem. Food for thought. Patience Grasshopper. Then you need to wait a long period of time before wet sanding a buffing the clear. I wait at least 2 weeks.

I know cue makers that epoxy, sand, clear coat, wet sand , buff then ship the cue in a few days. Wonder why the cue fit and finish looks like crap 6 months down the road.
 
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scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Concerning shrinkage of coatings.

Many cue makers coat their cues one day, wait a day or two, sand then prep and spray clear coat. This is a problematic procedure. Why? All epoxies have a set time. 5, 30, 60 min or 24 hrs. All epoxies set time is listed on the container. The critical factor is cure time. The 100% cure time is always 7 days with the materials we cue makers are familiar with.

So if you sand in 2 days and clear coat over that adhesion coat the cue will still be curing and still shrinking under a premature application of your clear.

So after applying your epoxy, you must be patient for at least a week at 72 degrees.

Just saying,

Rick

PS. The slower the set time the more shrinkage.

I did an experiment 15 years ago. I took 3 ferrules, taped the bottoms. Then filled them to the top with G5, 30 min, and 207/105. After the epoxies set, the G5 was about .100 shrunk from the top. The 30 min was about .200 and the west system was closer to .250.

When you consider the volumetric differential, it is huge. The shrinkage that occurs for the next five days can not be visually seen but even a 1/2 of a % shrinkage under a clear coat that is also curing is a compunding problem. Food for thought. Patience Grasshopper. Then you need to wait a long period of time before wet sanding a buffing the clear. I wait at least 2 weeks.

I know cue makers that epoxy, sand, clear coat, wet sand , buff then ship the cue in a few days. Wonder why the cue fit and finish looks like crap 6 months down the road.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Concerning shrinkage of coatings.

Many cue makers coat their cues one day, wait a day or two, sand then prep and spray clear coat. This is a problematic procedure. Why? All epoxies have a set time. 5, 30, 60 min or 24 hrs. All epoxies set time is listed on the container. The critical factor is cure time. The 100% cure time is always 7 days with the materials we cue makers are familiar with.

So if you sand in 2 days and clear coat over that adhesion coat the cue will still be curing and still shrinking under a premature application of your clear.

So after applying your epoxy, you must be patient for at least a week at 72 degrees.

Just saying,

Rick

PS. The slower the set time the more shrinkage.

I did an experiment 15 years ago. I took 3 ferrules, taped the bottoms. Then filled them to the top with G5, 30 min, and 207/105. After the epoxies set, the G5 was about .100 shrunk from the top. The 30 min was about .200 and the west system was closer to .250.

When you consider the volumetric differential, it is huge. The shrinkage that occurs for the next five days can not be visually seen but even a 1/2 of a % shrinkage under a clear coat that is also curing is a compunding problem. Food for thought. Patience Grasshopper. Then you need to wait a long period of time before wet sanding a buffing the clear. I wait at least 2 weeks.

I know cue makers that epoxy, sand, clear coat, wet sand , buff then ship the cue in a few days. Wonder why the cue fit and finish looks like crap 6 months down the road.

The 105/207 DID NOT SHRINK.
it penetrated the walls of the ferrule.
Wet mix do not shrink .
They shrink after they harden up .

And that experiment just proved the 105/207 is one of the best base coat . And 105 as A-joint epoxy .
If you know what you are doing.
Heaven forbid if some use 5-minute epoxy as base coat .
 
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BarenbruggeCues

Unregistered User
Silver Member
Concerning shrinkage of coatings.

Many cue makers coat their cues one day, wait a day or two, sand then prep and spray clear coat. This is a problematic procedure. Why? All epoxies have a set time. 5, 30, 60 min or 24 hrs. All epoxies set time is listed on the container. The critical factor is cure time. The 100% cure time is always 7 days with the materials we cue makers are familiar with.

So if you sand in 2 days and clear coat over that adhesion coat the cue will still be curing and still shrinking under a premature application of your clear.

So after applying your epoxy, you must be patient for at least a week at 72 degrees.

Just saying,

Rick

PS. The slower the set time the more initial shrinkage.

I did an experiment 15 years ago. I took 3 ferrules, taped the bottoms. Then filled them to the top with G5, 30 min, and 207/105. After the epoxies set, the G5 was about .100 shrunk from the top. The 30 min was about .200 and the west system was closer to .250. That is a 25% shrinkage in the 1" ferrule.

When you consider the volumetric differential, it is huge. The shrinkage that occurs for the next 6 days can not be visually seen but even a 1/2 of a % shrinkage under a clear coat that is also curing is a compunding problem. Food for thought. Patience Grasshopper. Then you need to wait a long period of time before wet sanding a buffing the clear. I wait at least 2 weeks.

I know cue makers that epoxy, sand, clear coat, wet sand , buff then ship the cue in a few days. Wonder why the cue fit and finish looks like crap 6 months down the road.

Wasn't it just around 9 years ago you were on here asking for help because you couldn't put a joint pin in a cue straight and now you're an epoxy expert?
Are you still "massaging" your pin into zero as the glue is setting because you oversize bore the hole on a barrel style pin?
 
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whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
you can always tell who makes cues fast............ because just like predator cues ....... you can feel every ring and inlay........................ I assemble a cue and take a first cut........... let it set for 2 weeks at 75 deg............ cut it to final size and put on the Max 1618 base coat.......... let it set for 2 weeks at 75 deg........... sand it and put on the Solarez clear coat ..... let it set for 2 weeks at 75 deg................ wet sand and buff it out............ you will never feel the rings or inlays............. Max 1618 and Solarez will never yellow......................... .

you are welcome

Kim
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
you can always tell who makes cues fast............ because just like predator cues ....... you can feel every ring and inlay........................ I assemble a cue and take a first cut........... let it set for 2 weeks at 75 deg............ cut it to final size and put on the Max 1618 base coat.......... let it set for 2 weeks at 75 deg........... sand it and put on the Solarez clear coat ..... let it set for 2 weeks at 75 deg................ wet sand and buff it out............ you will never feel the rings or inlays............. Max 1618 and Solarez will never yellow......................... .

you are welcome

Kim

Assemble the cue then take first cut then epoxy coat in two weeks ?
I must be missing something .
 

Double-Dave

Developing cue-addict
Silver Member
Assemble the cue then take first cut then epoxy coat in two weeks ?
I must be missing something .

Indeed.

I remember selling some 1.5" squares of really nice figured wood to a cuemaker and 6 weeks later I see pictures of a finished cue with a cored forearm of that same wood.

6 weeks is barely enough to turn it round from square:confused:
 
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