Cue Sales, Attention Buyers and Collectors

Almost everything goes up and down and when they go down significantly they almost never pop right back up. They stay down and continue down for a while. If you are selling, you need to sell.

I knew a guy in Fla, the market dropped on his house from 240K to 220K- He couldnt bring himself to sell 'losing' 20K. Then the market dropped to 200K and now he wants 220K-Long story short, he finally sold at 100K each time before that pricing it just a bit too high.

What you WANT to receive has no bearing on the market. Just sell. You are more likely to be able to buy it back cheaper later than the price will run way up on you. The best predictor on anything is that that which has been happening will continue to happen (like falling prices if that got by you) Sure it has to turn sometime but you will never know when.

BTW- the guy who finally sold at 100k, couldn't have gotten 70K a year later.

PS- i have no specific knowledge on cues but i doubt they are different from Stocks, real estate, silver or anything else
 
As my friend JV of classiccues told me recently, the thoroughbreds always run, the nags, not so much. :wink:

best,
brian kc
 
Well lets say that the market is adjusting for loss of jobs and disposable income at the moment, I feel the biggest shift is yet to come.

The big collectors of the mid 90's were in their 40's when they were making bukoo bucks and buying anything and everything. They are now in their 60's and 70's. When they kick the bucket, and they all will at some point, OR they decide to cash out, the market will not absorb the tsunami of available cues that will come out. Because there are FEW new collectors... one reason is I have seen 5-10 new guys basically turned completely off of the hobby by a few guys. These same guys do not know how to nurture a new collector, they suffocate them until they die.

JV
 
Different

Nostroke said:
Almost everything goes up and down and when they go down significantly they almost never pop right back up. They stay down and continue down for a while. If you are selling, you need to sell.

I knew a guy in Fla, the market dropped on his house from 240K to 220K- He couldnt bring himself to sell 'losing' 20K. Then the market dropped to 200K and now he wants 220K-Long story short, he finally sold at 100K each time before that pricing it just a bit too high.

What you WANT to receive has no bearing on the market. Just sell. You are more likely to be able to buy it back cheaper later than the price will run way up on you. The best predictor on anything is that that which has been happening will continue to happen (like falling prices if that got by you) Sure it has to turn sometime but you will never know when.

BTW- the guy who finally sold at 100k, couldn't have gotten 70K a year later.

PS- i have no specific knowledge on cues but i doubt they are different from Stocks, real estate, silver or anything else
Click to expand...

They are different in one way, Cues will not bounce back like stocks , real estate etc. like someone mentioned in a earlier post , younger players don't care about custom cues. If you have $ and are buying a cue for reasons other then as an investment, now is the time to buy. The days of buying cues for an investment in my opinion are over and that includes all of the big name cue makers.Sad but true.
 
classiccues said:
Well lets say that the market is adjusting for loss of jobs and disposable income at the moment, I feel the biggest shift is yet to come.

The big collectors of the mid 90's were in their 40's when they were making bukoo bucks and buying anything and everything. They are now in their 60's and 70's. When they kick the bucket, and they all will at some point, OR they decide to cash out, the market will not absorb the tsunami of available cues that will come out. Because there are FEW new collectors... one reason is I have seen 5-10 new guys basically turned completely off of the hobby by a few guys. These same guys do not know how to nurture a new collector, they suffocate them until they die.

JV
Click to expand...

This line of thought has been on my mind for some time!
 
Yeah, it's crazy to see some of these new guys in the W/FS buying/getting certain cues at retail price now and then trying to upcharge them 40-50% on a flip. Best of luck to 'em. Kinda makes me feel like we're in the twilight zone. Chickens have come home to roost on many (errr...most) cues.
 
cueaddicts said:
Yeah, it's crazy to see some of these new guys in the W/FS buying/getting certain cues at retail price now and then trying to upcharge them 40-50% on a flip. Best of luck to 'em. Kinda makes me feel like we're in the twilight zone. Chickens have come home to roost on many (errr...most) cues.
Click to expand...

All I know is when I hit dealing in 1995, I never ONCE walked around asking other dealers... "What's this worth"... Are you kidding me?!!?? :mad:, that would be like a new guy with a cue repair booth walking over to Blackburn saying.. hey how do I use this glue?

JV
 
Original by Palmer

I have followed the Palmer market since roughly 2001 and in my experience watching arm's-length sales in the open marketplace, the more common high-end Palmers have taken a big hit while the low-end cues of the line have held fairly steady and consistent.

Over the last couple of years, there have been some real bargains on J's, M's, 20's, & 11's, but the house cue conversions still have roughly the same value as in the past. I suppose one could say those entry level cues never really increased in value and the ebony cues became overpriced.

I have seen exceptions which I attribute to a few unknowledgeable buyers, but that will be the case in any market with any category of item.

Kevin once said, "List a cue on eBay for $9.99 and it will find it's value." I basically agree with that. A good cue will sell for it's market price. Actually any cue regardless of condition will sell for it's market price.

The only Palmers out there not selling, are those from sellers wanting 2-3 times their established value. Otherwise, I believe the market is active, just not robust in terms of price.
 
Type79 said:
I have followed the Palmer market since roughly 2001 and in my experience watching arm's-length sales in the open marketplace, the more common high-end Palmers have taken a big hit while the low-end cues of the line have held fairly steady and consistent.

Over the last couple of years, there have been some real bargains on J's, M's, 20's, & 11's, but the house cue conversions still have roughly the same value as in the past. I suppose one could say those entry level cues never really increased in value and the ebony cues became overpriced.

I have seen exceptions which I attribute to a few unknowledgeable buyers, but that will be the case in any market with any category of item.

Kevin once said, "List a cue on eBay for $9.99 and it will find it's value." I basically agree with that. A good cue will sell for it's market price. Actually any cue regardless of condition will sell for it's market price.

The only Palmers out there not selling, are those from sellers wanting 2-3 times their established value. Otherwise, I believe the market is active, just not robust in terms of price.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with your assessment. Sold all my big Palmers around 2005-06 and I'm quite glad that I did.

The one thing on ebay....for that to really work, a cue has to be properly listed and referenced, so that it shows up on common searches. Also, you've got to come to a place like here and advertise the auction. Only then, when a large enough pool of potential bidders are aware, will you arrive at a 'market price', more or less.
 
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Type79 said:
I have followed the Palmer market since roughly 2001 and in my experience watching arm's-length sales in the open marketplace, the more common high-end Palmers have taken a big hit while the low-end cues of the line have held fairly steady and consistent.

Over the last couple of years, there have been some real bargains on J's, M's, 20's, & 11's, but the house cue conversions still have roughly the same value as in the past. I suppose one could say those entry level cues never really increased in value and the ebony cues became overpriced.

I have seen exceptions which I attribute to a few unknowledgeable buyers, but that will be the case in any market with any category of item.

Kevin once said, "List a cue on eBay for $9.99 and it will find it's value." I basically agree with that. A good cue will sell for it's market price. Actually any cue regardless of condition will sell for it's market price.

The only Palmers out there not selling, are those from sellers wanting 2-3 times their established value. Otherwise, I believe the market is active, just not robust in terms of price.
Click to expand...

Great avatar!!
 
TATE said:
I see people complaining that cues aren't selling, then I see them asking sky high prices. Price them right, or auction them, if they're good cues, they'll sell. Don't be stubborn unless you want to keep it forever - values have dropped in many cases and we have to live with it.

For buyers or collectors, if you ever wanted your dream cue, make offers. Now is the time to get that dream cue you've always wanted. Keep an open mind. If you buy smart, you'll come out OK. Buy what you love.

Over the years I've bought and sold many cues. Right now, at this moment, it is a buyer's or collectors dream. Cherry pick the best cues and keep them.
Click to expand...

Henry Ford said if your cars aren't selling then you haven't reached the price the public will pay.

My mother said if you price it too high then you want to show and tell and not show and sell.
 
franko said:
They are different in one way, Cues will not bounce back like stocks , real estate etc. like someone mentioned in a earlier post , younger players don't care about custom cues. If you have $ and are buying a cue for reasons other then as an investment, now is the time to buy. The days of buying cues for an investment in my opinion are over and that includes all of the big name cue makers.Sad but true.
Click to expand...

I think you're mistaken about what younger players care about. I talk to a lot of young buyers, later 20s-mid 30s who are on their third and fourth custom cues, some with BIG cues from big names, who are proud of their cues and passionate about collecting more as finances permit. They save for the cues they target and absorb and and all information they can.

As to the investment aspect I wouldn't know. I think that there are probably a few names where the value will always stay up there but some of them which are/were touted so highly are not bringing over retail on the secondary market as the "talk" suggested they would/should. I never buy billiard stuff for investment purposes. If I happen to find an old ball set or something at an antique store then I will buy it to flip it as soon as possible. The high end cue market is a mystery to me actually even though I have sold hundreds of cues.
 
Tate refers to what values I achieve at auction as "street value" I call it actual cash value.

Assuming its a well publicized auction on eBay it will get plenty of looks (astounding numbers really in comparison to other collectibles) and if the seller looks trustworthy (not as much of a consideration as it used to be), the cue will achieve its actual cash value very reliably. That value is not wholesale, eBay will generally generate a higher value for items than dealers looking to resell can pay and anticipate a profit. The high bidder in a good eBay auction will generally be the end user or collector as the case may be.

One of the things to take into consideration is "turn rate", that amount of time a seller is willing to take to achieve his price. If you are looking to turn an item into cash at today's fair market price, a well publicized auction attended by people that are interested in like items, is a very good method of achieving that goal.

Thanks

Kevin
 
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This Little Cue Went To Market

There are cues for sale on various websites that have literally been there for years, maybe as much as ten years. IMHO, those cues are not for sale as their prices don't relate to anything.

Unfortunately, this has a negative influence on unknowledgeable sellers/owners who equate "asking price" with "value". There is one site in particular that lists a handful of Palmers that is a good example of this because owners hit on it and think their $350-$500 bar-cue Palmer is worth $900-$1,100.

As a result, I see some cues on the market, in some cases very desirable cues, that unknowledgeable sellers ask or list at auction for multiples of their value and end-up not making a sale because they hold-out for an unrealistic value. Or if they are a buyer, they might end-up over-paying for another similar model cue they find at 2x value and think they are getting a deal, when what they are doing is purchasing something they can't unload when that time comes around. And that time always comes around.

And I've seen a few trades where buyers paid some high prices. Not many but a few. One in particular was a 3rd Catalog Model 4 Palmer that sold for a whopping $1,200. Huh?

Jay

Kevin wrote:
"One of the things to take into consideration is "turn rate", that amount of time a seller is willing to take to achieve his price. If you are looking to turn an item into cash at today's fair market price, a well publicized auction attended by people that are interested in like items, is a very good method of achieving that goal."
 
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Type79 said:
There are cues for sale on various websites that have literally been there for years, maybe as much as ten years. IMHO, those cues are not for sale as their prices don't relate to anything.

Unfortunately, this has a negative influence on unknowledgeable sellers/owners who equate "asking price" with "value". There is one site in particular that lists a handful of Palmers that is a good example of this because owners hit on it and think their $350-$500 bar-cue Palmer is worth $900-$1,100.

As a result, I see some cues on the market, in some cases very desirable cues, that unknowledgeable sellers ask or list at auction for multiples of their value and end-up not making a sale because they hold-out for an unrealistic value. Or if they are a buyer, they might end-up over-paying for another similar model cue they find at 2x value and think they are getting a deal, when what they doing is purchasing something they can't unload when that time comes around. And that time always comes around.

And I've seen a few trades where buyers paid some high prices. Not many but a few. One in particular was a 3rd Catalog Model 4 Palmer that sold for a whopping $1,200. Huh?

Jay

Kevin wrote:
"One of the things to take into consideration is "turn rate", that amount of time a seller is willing to take to achieve his price. If you are looking to turn an item into cash at today's fair market price, a well publicized auction attended by people that are interested in like items, is a very good method of achieving that goal."
Click to expand...

Jay (thought that was you)

Yes that is precisely what happens. Plus. often when a cue actually sells (here at AZ for example) not only is the sales price unknown, but ofttimes the asking price disappears. I know the common answer to "why?" is that the buyers want it that way, but its also possible that the sellers decide that what the item actually sold for is better off unknown (in the seller's best interest next time around).

Having established and transparent comparable sales record has never hurt the art world or the real estate market, and to my way of thinking, having the info transparent and assessable would stimulate cue sales by bolstering buyer confidence.

Kevin
 
"Plus. often when a cue actually sells (here at AZ for example) not only is the sales price unknown, but ofttimes the asking price disappears."

Not on eBay.

I will share a little eBay secret about Best Offer auctions. The price does not show on the eBay screens but if you select "See Original Listing" at the top of the screen and then scroll half-way down and select the "Print" button the Best Offer price will appear.

Jay
 
The tire kicking has reached epic levels. If you really want sonething and have the cash, just pull the trigger.

Lately I just price stuff to move. Right at the least I would accept. I have a beautiful josswest here for 1100, absolute steal. Had to put it on ebay. Has 18 watchers and ends tomorrow. Might sell, who knows. Id rather burn it then sell for 1000.

There just aren't buyers here. The same cues endlessly bumped. 80% are priced out of line.
 
JB Cases said:
I think you're mistaken about what younger players care about. I talk to a lot of young buyers, later 20s-mid 30s who are on their third and fourth custom cues, some with BIG cues from big names, who are proud of their cues and passionate about collecting more as finances permit. They save for the cues they target and absorb and and all information they can.

As to the investment aspect I wouldn't know. I think that there are probably a few names where the value will always stay up there but some of them which are/were touted so highly are not bringing over retail on the secondary market as the "talk" suggested they would/should. I never buy billiard stuff for investment purposes. If I happen to find an old ball set or something at an antique store then I will buy it to flip it as soon as possible. The high end cue market is a mystery to me actually even though I have sold hundreds of cues.
Click to expand...

There is some hope for a renaissance too. There are some pool related television reality shows in the works. I know a few large cable networks are looking for ideas and proposals. My wife's cousin is in the production business and they are into pool - edgy young people who are aggressive with business, money and life. They are stoked by the different lifestyles out there. Pool players - our alternate world - is a very interesting subculture to outsiders.
 
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takeitdown said:
The tire kicking has reached epic levels. If you really want sonething and have the cash, just pull the trigger.

Lately I just price stuff to move. Right at the least I would accept. I have a beautiful josswest here for 1100, absolute steal. Had to put it on ebay. Has 18 watchers and ends tomorrow. Might sell, who knows. Id rather burn it then sell for 1000.

There just aren't buyers here. The same cues endlessly bumped. 80% are priced out of line.
Click to expand...

I saw that - it should sell. If not, Ebay has a large turnover of lookers. Sometimes you have to just take it down for a few weeks, relist and boom -the right people come along.
 
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