Cuemaker ethics - what do you really make?

[banged up]

I am going to agree with Roscoe on this.. this information should be available with the cue at all times. If a cuemaker posts his work and he didn't make the points and he says he did, you have to wonder what else this person might be duping you on.

I am not saying using other points is a bad practice, as long as you put that info out there. A lot of cuemakers as mentioned, back in the day, have done this plenty. However there weren't 800 cuemakers vying for a piece of the pie and if you want a piece you better be upfront. I am not talking about rumors, I am talking about hard evidence.

In the days of Bushka, had he said Burton Spain made his blanks, people would have been like "Who"? They didn't have the internet and they sure didn't have the competition that is out there today.

I do see the comparison that the pointed blank is not much more a component than a piece of cocobolo. That this is just a part of a whole item, and should be regarded as such. I don't necessarily agree with that line of thinking, however I do understand it. I buy a computer from Dell and they didn't make the hard drive or motherboard, but that information is on the units and easy to find, but it still says Dell.

JV

Just to let you know on the Dells not only is the hard drive and motherboard not made by Dell not any of it is made by Dell; same with HP (assembled by Foxconn).

I think its a shame that a customer has to do a ton of research to find out wether a product is made by the company with the name on the product when it should be clearly stated up front. Anything less is a misrepresentation IMHO.

 

[JCIN]

What pisses me off, is someone who doesn't make cues to sit there and dictate what a cue maker is, or how a cue maker should work in his shop. If you want to start your own shop and show us how it's done, be my guest, but if you ain't got no shop, shut the f--- up.

Most of the people I know who pay $500 and up for cues are not cue makers. They are customers. In the world I live in that means they are exactly the ones who get to say what a cue maker is or is not by what they buy. Some are more knowledgeable than others but unless a "cue maker" is someone who builds cues with no regard towards selling them and does it strictly just to be doing it (in which case that person would not care what anyone said or thought about him) then yes the customers have a say.

I have asked John Showman, Dennis Searing and Ernie Gutierrez about the recent phenomenon of the cue making supply industry. By that I mean all of the companies selling not cues but cue parts and cue making machines. Basically they all have said something similar in that assembling a cue is not the same as making a cue. No one slammed the guy using pre made blanks it is just two different things. IMO you can't say it's not because it is.

I know all about Balabushka and maybe when someone's name is mentioned in the same breath as his they will have an argument but I do not see that happening anytime soon, so to me it is not a sound argument. In other words just because George used others blanks in era when people could care less does not mean Billy Ray Cue Assembler cranking out the Prather six pointers today is on equal ground with George. Apples and oranges.

If I buy a cue for $500 I don't really care where the blank came from as long as it is good quality. If I am buying a $2000 cue I expect the shop to do all the work in house unless I know from the start they use outsourced blanks or it is discussed before hand. In the end it is all a matter of honesty and disclosure. To the customers who care about this detail it is a big deal so the shop needs to address it honestly if asked.

As far as the attitude of "Shut up, it's none of your business what's in this cue." As soon as I heard that I would know that I needed to be looking somewhere else for a cue.

 

[1pRoscoe]

Most of the people I know who pay $500 and up for cues are not cue makers. They are customers. In the world I live in that means they are exactly the ones who get to say what a cue maker is or is not by what they buy. Some are more knowledgeable than others but unless a "cue maker" is someone who builds cues with no regard towards selling them and does it strictly just to be doing it (in which case that person would not care what anyone said or thought about him) then yes the customers have a say.

Exactly my point, Justin... thanks.

As far as the attitude of "Shut up, it's none of your business what's in this cue." As soon as I heard that I would know that I needed to be looking somewhere else for a cue.

That kind of sums it up for me.

 

[LAlouie]

As I understand it, lot's of cuemakers by all kinds of different parts from different "pre-made" sources. I don't see why not building a forearm is any more deceptive, especially when the assumption is that you are buying CUSTOM.

An easy way around it is to design your own cue, or maybe ask the cuemaker to send you progress pics. Lots of "cuemakers" out there who know nothing and are in it for the buck. You have to do due diligence, otherwise it's buyer beware and you get what you pay for.

 

[Drawman623]

I agree that during the 1960's and 1970's many cue makers were making cues with parts supplied by other cue makers. During this time the equipment needed to make cues was not really available, along with other cue making supplies, so it was an acceptable practice then, but times change.

I see your point Craig.

Your comment made me think about the criteria to become a member of the American Cuemaker's Association. As I understand it, membership requirements include a sample cue made by the applicant to demonstrate their ability to make a spliced point design.

I am not versed on the exact requirements currently, but I suspect a cue with an existing cuemaker's forearm would not qualify.

 

[ratcues]

I see it from a different angle. There are "cue makers" today that are getting into the business without going through the same trial and error process that Bushka and Boti went through. They can buy blanks and run with it. So I guess it comes down to experience. Its the knowing the "whys" instead of just "hows." Now, this doesn't apply to everyone across the board but, on balance, this has been the trend.

Buy and build now......learn later.

That's why I say the "whys." Ask the cue maker why he uses a premade blank. Is it to keep his cost down? Faster? Not happy with his own? If it is any answer other than "I tried and tried and tried but could never make one to my satisfaction so I started using XYZ's blanks...." then I'd pass. Trial and error is the most effective way to learn. Its not the fastest or the easiest.....just the most effective.

 

[HIRUN526]

To me a "custom cue maker" build's the forearm.

I would never buy a custom cue from someone that does not build the heart and soul of a cue .."the forearm". Exceptions.. bar cue conversions and Titlist conversions.

I can't think of any rational reason for not building the forearm on a custom cue except lack of ... talent,knowledge,desire,ability,(cost effective?) or just too damn lazy.

The cue maker should always tell the customer who built the forearm prior to ordering or buying the cue...there are no exceptions.
. If he doesn't..he lacks "ethics"( I'm being generous using that word)

Anyway to all the real custom cue makers out there I salute you!!

 

[Cue Guru]

That is very good.

I do both- I am in the learning process (and anyone who feels they have nothing to learn should be avoided as much as one who outwardly lies about any part of 'their' cue) with making my own blanks and appreciate the quality of well-made blanks.

I have no remorse at all about using a blank made by John Davis (or the Titlist for that matter). When you speak of experience, I do not believe there is any person alive today with more full-splice blank making experience than John. On the other hand, I have a greater sense of pride in the fact that I did make my first cue with my own full-splice blank. Even though the quality is not remotely close even to the Titlist, I have more pride in that cue because I made it, and no one can dispute that.

In fact, the value of the finished cue would likely INCREASE because I'm using John's blank- he is 'known'; I am not. His splice work is far better than mine; there is absolutely no question of that. I aspire to get to that level in my lifetime, yet may never accomplish it... BUT, that does not deter me from trying!:smile:

 

[dave sutton]

The value may increase but the cost also increases. So where it might cost me 35$ to make my own it costs 350$ to buy. you are not getting 10x the value for the blank. This is one reason some makers won't use blanks. You immediatly cut your profit in half.

Now I spend multiple thousands of dollars to make my own forearms. Would it be easier to buy them. Maybe. This is what Ryan is touching on. Some don't have the know-how or $$$$ to invest in the machinery it takes to make their own forearms.

 

[Cue Guru]

Making the splice CAN be very expensive; however I made my first one with a very modest assortment of equipment: (Radial arm saw, band saw, cabinet maker's saw, jointer, thickness planer and of course a lathe), so it CAN be made with a very modest assortment of equipment, it is certainly easier if money is no object...

I think it equates to a tool & die maker as compared to a CNC turning center: The quality will be (should be anyway) equal, the process time involved is less with CNC so therefore the cost of the part is lower. If time is not a factor, then there is no reason not to use the tool & die maker particularly if you don't happen to have a CNC turning center lying around...

So, it will take a lot longer to get a nice blank from a craftsman (like John) than a production place (like Prather) for example, who have invested a great deal in equipment to make blanks on more of a production scale. But, I (and others) do not need to make blanks with the kind of efficiency that Prather needs to have because we are not serving that volume, nor are we paying off a substantial equipment investment.

Back on topic more, I would equate Prather to the old Brunswick. Back in the day, Brunswick made the investment in the equipment to make the full splice blanks preferred at the time for their house cues, which they also sold to cue makers. Today, Prather offers a US-made blank that (appears) to be better in quality and consistency than the old Titlist blanks from back in the day.

Times have changed a great deal since then, but the basics remain.

Ultimately, it is up to the cue maker to do what he feels is 'right' and also up to his customer to have faith and trust in the maker they have chosen so that when the final product bears the "maker's mark", the purchaser is as proud to own it as the maker is to have made it.

 

[SK Custom Cues]

You are twisting what I said to make me look bad and I don't appreciate it.

Most of the people I know who pay $500 and up for cues are not cue makers. They are customers. In the world I live in that means they are exactly the ones who get to say what a cue maker is or is not by what they buy. Some are more knowledgeable than others but unless a "cue maker" is someone who builds cues with no regard towards selling them and does it strictly just to be doing it (in which case that person would not care what anyone said or thought about him) then yes the customers have a say.

I have asked John Showman, Dennis Searing and Ernie Gutierrez about the recent phenomenon of the cue making supply industry. By that I mean all of the companies selling not cues but cue parts and cue making machines. Basically they all have said something similar in that assembling a cue is not the same as making a cue. No one slammed the guy using pre made blanks it is just two different things. IMO you can't say it's not because it is.

I know all about Balabushka and maybe when someone's name is mentioned in the same breath as his they will have an argument but I do not see that happening anytime soon, so to me it is not a sound argument. In other words just because George used others blanks in era when people could care less does not mean Billy Ray Cue Assembler cranking out the Prather six pointers today is on equal ground with George. Apples and oranges.

If I buy a cue for $500 I don't really care where the blank came from as long as it is good quality. If I am buying a $2000 cue I expect the shop to do all the work in house unless I know from the start they use outsourced blanks or it is discussed before hand. In the end it is all a matter of honesty and disclosure. To the customers who care about this detail it is a big deal so the shop needs to address it honestly if asked.

As far as the attitude of "Shut up, it's none of your business what's in this cue." As soon as I heard that I would know that I needed to be looking somewhere else for a cue.

 

[Cue Guru]

So where it might cost me 35$ to make my own [blank] it costs 350$ to buy [a blank]. you are not getting 10x the value for the blank.

I see your point, but I think that $35.00 is quite low. That probably covers materials, but what about your time? I have to assume you place a value on your time, and with a couple sticks and a pile of veneers you are looking at ~4 hours of labor? Probably more? Even at only $10.00/hr that is another $40.00 at least.

Not trying to start a pissing contest with you Dave but my time has value and I'm sure your's does as well (perhaps more than mine) so I just wanted to clarify that.

It still comes no where near the $350.00 purchase price of a pre-made full-splice blank, so your original point remains... As far as making short blanks, well I agree with you 100% on that. Although they can be purchased inexpensively, there is really no reason to purchase a short blank in my opinion. So much so I have sometimes considered making these for myself as well, but decided against it and will continue to only use a full-splice, regardless of where the blank comes from.

 

[Neil]

.....................

 

[63Kcode]

I think this has gotten way off topic. The topic, if I read this right is honesty. I don't think any poster here thinks it's OK to be dishonest.

Since we are off topic allready and this has turned into who is a cue make and who isen't, I have afew questions.

1 Does a cue make have to make pointed blanks to be a cue maker?

2 If a person buys all his tools and reads a book buy the tool maker. Is he more or less cue maker than a guy doing it himself tuning from squares an a metal lathe with tooling he made himself.


Larry

 

[Cue Guru]

I don't think we are way off topic.

This is the original question:

Cuemaker ethics - what do you really make?

So we are talking about a Cue maker's ethics, as well as what that cue maker does and does not make.

 

[SK Custom Cues]

I agree 100% with Dave here. I think the people in this thread know perfectly well what is up here, but there are some who decide they are going to cross the line and try and force their opinions on others and that is wrong.

There is no doubt a cue maker should be honest and do business ethically, and misrepresentation is interpreted differently among different people. Either way you slice it, lying is never good.

There is a finer line here that is being illuminated and that is when is it necessary to say what goes in your cue, and to whom?
There are lots of reasons people do things, and as I have already expressed, it normally doesn't matter unless you have someone who is knowledgeable enough to know the difference and they really want to know. For someone like me who is just starting out, I have no choice but to use blanks, but as my skills progress, I plan on making my own, but that's my personal business practice. It kind of like a chef who could care less to explain what he put in his food. Yes, the customer has a right to know, but damn! Come on. Get real here. If I ain't gonna list all those ingredients and my suppliers on the menu.

I agree that the higher end cues from master cue makers should be constructed as much as possible from scratch, but there are reasons a les experienced cue maker doesn't, and if you have nothing to do with that cue maker, you really don't have a right to tell that cue maker what's up.

The last cue I made was a not from a blank I made. If I were to sell that cue, I would not list the maker of that blank unless the prospect really needed to know, then I would disclose that info. Is that dishonest? Not in my book. That is how many a cue maker makes and sells cues and has done so for years.

When it comes to certain things, there is a line you do not cross and that is to tell a cue maker how to run his shop especially if you don't make cues. It's that simple. You don't tell a soccer coach how to coach his team, you don't tell a chef how to cook your food, and you don't tell a cue maker how to make and sell his cues. If you are dealing with an individual cue maker who is making you a cue, you have every right to know anything you want to know about that cue, but that's only if you have the knowledge to back those questions up. If you are like most who don't have a clue and don't care one wood from the next than you shouldn't even worry about it in the first place.

If someone outright lies and claims he made a blank when in fact he didn't, that is wrong, and we all know that. If you have to ask that question in the first place, or prove that to the world, you need to ask yourself what is wrong with your judgement.

Those who have respect show it. Those who have knowledge demonstrate it. Those who have no class and twist what other people say or dictate how a craftsman practices his craft need to get a life.

why is the car analogy a bad one? would nike be a better one. when you buy a nike driver for 400$ do you ask did you make this head, shaft or grip... no.

this buisness just about the only one in the world where the customer thinks he has the right to know everything. i dont agree with this. before they call it just a "trade secret"
anyone that has done any buisness with me knows i am about as hands on as possible. i want everyone to be happy. however if you know nothing about cuemaking what purpose do you gain from this knowledge? its its quality it shouldnt matter. the cue has my taper and my specs. do you ask where i bought the wood or metal rings joints screws. i dont make my own phenolic or delrin but i machine it. is this ok?

the problem now is customers have access it suppliers ect today so they have much more knowledge then before. does this give them the right to know "everything" no. i could be wrong but... if i am show me where its written.

i suppose this is why certin makers dont talk to people. not bc they are being deceptive but the customers sometimes are into things they dont need to be

so... finally tell me this. you spend 9500$ on a gus over say 6500$ on a barry. u want the gus bc its a gus... its the dad... hes the master. do you think gus told the world that barry made the forearms in alot of gus's cues. does this change your mond about the gus?

the answer is no

so heres my breakdown

wood bell forrest
joint atlas
pin atlas
phenolic atlas
rings prather/atlas
veneers dustin cookson
wrap atlas
leather tiger brianna hightower
tips atlas
ferrule atlas
delrin atlas

 

[63Kcode]

I don't think we are way off topic.

This is the original question:

Cuemaker ethics - what do you really make?

So we are talking about a Cue maker's ethics, as well as what that cue maker does and does not make.

I was refering to post#4 where the original poster added

"Guess I left out something specific.....

What if they represent it as their own when infact it's not? "

Larry

 

[Cue Guru]

OK Larry, no problem.

And I agree that that is not ethical to represent other's work as your own.

 

[Big Perm]

A couple of thoughts from the peanut gallery :grin:

IMHO, it doesn't matter how the guy answers as long as it's the truth:

I make my own blanks, and let me tell you about the detail I put in, etc.....love to buy from this guy
I make my own blanks, but I don't disclose my process.....respect his candor...
I don't make my own blanks, but I get them from so and so, their process is excellent, etc.....love this guy too....
I don't make my own blanks, and I don't disclose where I get them.....weary of him, but at least he's honest...

Methinks the guy we are all concerned about is Mr. "Yes, I make my own blanks", but he doesn't and justifies the lie thinking it's not the customers business.....these guys exist in all areas of business, so it's likely they are in cuebuilding too somewhere....

As far as cars go, much of this is disclosed and expected in high end products.....the Mercedes AMG line of engines are hand built, or at least they were, by a top level engine builder in Germany....which is why the series demands a greater pricetag.....I think all manufacturers disclose the percentage of parts and where vehicle is made.....I remember hearing, more than once, "I want a Toyota that is made in Japan"....

As far as Nike drivers, much like the cues, as long as you get a high quality, well made product for your dollar that performs, you are happy....it's when companies outsource something to a low cost provider that has quality control issues that ultimately can cost them millions and hurt the brand....

My two cents...

 

[icon2]

The value may increase but the cost also increases. So where it might cost me 35$ to make my own it costs 350$ to buy. you are not getting 10x the value for the blank. This is one reason some makers won't use blanks. You immediatly cut your profit in half.

if you can make something for $35, that sells for $350, shouldn't you be selling them?
think you left some cost out of your equation. : )