Cuemakers nightmare!
- Thread starter ratcues
- Start date
ratcues said:
Ryan, Maybe it would have been better if I'd have responded with a PM but this is a good topic for this forum. You seem to have been dilligent in your having tests done using different materials. The only problem is that the tests results were flawed, I believe, because I doubt if the tests were done using close fitting tennons and cylinders. Probably were done with flat objects. You are correct that the CA glues can give better adhesion on some materials when the parts are close fitting. This is why certain ones are best for tips, BUT, in that case the parts are flat, and you can get good coverage. When gluing up ringworn, ferrules or anything involving a cylinder over a tennon, when you have the proper clearance for optimum adhesion, you have a situation where when the cylinder is slipped over the tennon, it acts like a squeegee and wipes off a good portion of the CA, leaving dry spots where adhesion is less than optimum. This is why the slow setting epoxies, such as West Systems or even the "Devcon 2 ton" are a much better choice. I also use a 60deg tool and put grooves on all my tennons to give the epoxy more gluing surface and I never have a part come loose using this technique!
I appolize if my comment caused you grief, but I do hope that you learned something from my 30 years experience. In a lot of situations when building cues, as the old saying goes "there's more than one way to skin a cat". In this case the way you've been doing it, is unacceptible IMHO, and I just wanted to save you serious trouble down the road. Hope you can take the constructive criticism in the way it was meant. Not to knock you, but to help you!
Good Luck in your cuemaking adventures! If you ever find yourself near Cincinnati, please contact me and stop by my shop for a cup of coffee and some cuemaking talk!
Sincerely,
Sherm
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I understand what you are saying with the squeegee. I make sure all surfaces are covered with glue.
The CA reacts with the water in the shaft creating a adhesive bond between the wood and the plastic. There is also a cohesive bond with the other plastic rings that epoxy cannot do.
Epoxy needs a porous surface such as phenolic or other linen based materials. It does not stick as well to the ABS or whatever type of plastic is used. The reason 2-ton works so well with linen based is the it "bites" into the wood's xylem and phloem along with the linen. The same with multiple rings of the same material. It creates a cohesive bond.
I appreciate your help but I still respectfully disagree. I have not had any problems with my ringwork, no matter what material it is. I have "material specific" glues and they are the best quality on the market. Like I said, there are a dozen or so adhesives that I use on a daily basis. Saying that the method I use is "unacceptible" is a bit harsh but I guess you are entitled to your opinion. In my experience, and the combined experience of the company I work for, we are correct. We have also been educated by some of the biggest and most respected names in this industry, including Burton Spain. I still have a 4pt blank of his and a week's worth of video of him teaching how to make it. (gratuitous name drop)
I would also love to stop by if I am out that way. I haven't left the state since my sone was born 16 months ago. I do, however, get to go to SBE this year so maybe I'll see you, and everyone else, there.
Respectfully,
Ryan
The CA reacts with the water in the shaft creating a adhesive bond between the wood and the plastic. There is also a cohesive bond with the other plastic rings that epoxy cannot do.
Epoxy needs a porous surface such as phenolic or other linen based materials. It does not stick as well to the ABS or whatever type of plastic is used. The reason 2-ton works so well with linen based is the it "bites" into the wood's xylem and phloem along with the linen. The same with multiple rings of the same material. It creates a cohesive bond.
I appreciate your help but I still respectfully disagree. I have not had any problems with my ringwork, no matter what material it is. I have "material specific" glues and they are the best quality on the market. Like I said, there are a dozen or so adhesives that I use on a daily basis. Saying that the method I use is "unacceptible" is a bit harsh but I guess you are entitled to your opinion. In my experience, and the combined experience of the company I work for, we are correct. We have also been educated by some of the biggest and most respected names in this industry, including Burton Spain. I still have a 4pt blank of his and a week's worth of video of him teaching how to make it. (gratuitous name drop)
I would also love to stop by if I am out that way. I haven't left the state since my sone was born 16 months ago. I do, however, get to go to SBE this year so maybe I'll see you, and everyone else, there.
Respectfully,
Ryan
ratcues said:
When did Burton Spain tell you you to use cyanoacrylate glue in any place except a tip?
In my opinion and the opinion of EVERY other cuemaker I know of, cyanoacrylate glue is NOT suitable for cue construction.
If you are a new Cuemaker reading this thread please do not use cyanoacrylate glue on a cue except for the tip. You can get some very good advice in this forum but you can also get some information that is not good advice. Be careful of everything you hear and read about cuemaking. There are some very good usual and customary methods of cue construction and there are some methods that are just not good for the cue. In time you will learn the difference.
Good Cuemaking,
In my opinion and the opinion of EVERY other cuemaker I know of, cyanoacrylate glue is NOT suitable for cue construction.
Same here. Sooner or later CA will break or worse, crystalize.
If you can't make plastic stick, don't use it or create a mechanical bond.
Get a rod and bore the hole and thread it and thread the tenon.
Same here. Sooner or later CA will break or worse, crystalize.
If you can't make plastic stick, don't use it or create a mechanical bond.
Get a rod and bore the hole and thread it and thread the tenon.
ratcues said:
My dentist has a trick new CAD-CAM crown manufacturing setup.
http://www.cereconline.com/
He can prep and apply a crown in one visit, no temporary caps, no coming back, nuthin'. The manufactured crowns are cut from a proprietary ceramic, and he uses sulfuric acid to etch the glue surface for optimal adhesion. I don't know what sort of adhesives he uses - he alluded once that it was similar to CA - but he uses an infrared stylus to cure it.
Ken
Arnot Wadsworth said:
Burton did not tell me to use CA. I just used him as a reference to show that I am not some fly-by-night cuemaker. I have a wealth of experience and resources to pull from.
I find it amazing how you guys are reacting to this. Just because it may not have worked for you, you think I am wrong. Telling other new cuemakers not to follow my advice is, in my opinion, childish and unbecoming of members of the ACA, of which I am a member.
This "I'm right, your wrong" attitude is getting old. Just agree to disagree and drop it. If you are just trying to steer people away from me, from my work, at least have the guts to put it in print. You guys are showing your true colors and I hope the 1700 or so people who have read this thread understand the difference. As I have said all along, you do not have to agree with me but don't discredit my work. The shop I work in has been operating since 1957. I have built an emorous customer base and they are satified with the work I do. My ringwork does not get brittle and break down. My ringwork does not crack under stress. My ringwork does not shift or move.
I feel I have been respectful and given clear and true info throughout this thread. You guys have offered none.
RAT
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That is true Ryan but the wood would prolly rot first.ratcues said:
I dropped some epoxy on my lathe pan.
About the size of a nickle and about 2 nickles thick.
I've hammered that thing a few times and it has not budged.
That thing is stuck on the pan which has oil and dust.
It's tensile and shear strength are good enough for golf driver face.
It ain't going nowhere as a joint epoxy imo.
Cuemakers nightmare
Somewhere, and I think it was this forum, I remember seeing a shelf with a bunch of Tad Kohara installed butt sleeves sitting on it. And along with them was a few bottles of super glue. May have just been a coincidence. How about Diekman using it as a sealer and filler on cues. Guess we had better look out for white Diekmans. I know several cuemakers who use it while doing folded veneers, and they have been making cues since before so of these Nye sayers where old enough to get into a pool hall. Guess all the veneer work will get a white line in it.
One respondent once confided in a Friend of mine he was super gluing his v points in, guess he has a short memory. Joey, try a sharp chisel, it will shear right off.
Somewhere, and I think it was this forum, I remember seeing a shelf with a bunch of Tad Kohara installed butt sleeves sitting on it. And along with them was a few bottles of super glue. May have just been a coincidence. How about Diekman using it as a sealer and filler on cues. Guess we had better look out for white Diekmans. I know several cuemakers who use it while doing folded veneers, and they have been making cues since before so of these Nye sayers where old enough to get into a pool hall. Guess all the veneer work will get a white line in it.
One respondent once confided in a Friend of mine he was super gluing his v points in, guess he has a short memory. Joey, try a sharp chisel, it will shear right off.
I think people can see the fact that you have done a lot in the way of testing your theory's regarding proper glue selection in relation to material. If I am following you correctly you are only suggesting the use of CA's when using certain types of plastics. Reason being that It creates a better bond than epoxy with those materials. IMO I think you are using sound logic and you have clearly done your homework. On the other hand other posters are probably not wrong in steering rookies from using CA's for ring work. Not because it doesn't work but because it requires tighter tolerances to achieve the proper fit and you have to have sound prep technique. Epoxy is much more forgiving in this regard. So for what it is worth IMO I believe the fact that you use CA's for some types of repair should not mar your good reputation nor do I believe anybody was trying to slander it.ratcues said:
Ain't nothin beats good 'ole white elmers for all glueing needs........
Even glued the neighbors cat to the side of the barn with it one time!
Even glued the neighbors cat to the side of the barn with it one time!
John Barton
New member
I once melted the joint and buttcap of a Meucci while trying to remove the old finish. I offered a brand new Mali or the purchase price of the cue as compensation. I was told that I messed up the cue because I really "wanted" it. I said, "it's a Meucci, no one wants it."
was the stripper too strong is that how it was messed up ?John Barton said:I once melted the joint and buttcap of a Meucci while trying to remove the old finish. I offered a brand new Mali or the purchase price of the cue as compensation. I was told that I messed up the cue because I really "wanted" it. I said, "it's a Meucci, no one wants it."
ratcues said:
I'm going to disagree with this one. I am not a cuemaker (though I hope to tinker with the trade some day), but I have a lot of experiance and knowledge with epoxy. Epoxy resin breaks down due to UV rays (sunlight), if properly finished and cared for epoxy resin will easily outlast the wood that it is bonded to. While it is true that epoxy does not hold as strong to plastics as CA initially, overtime its bond will outlast IMO. I did however use CA to repair a shaft collar on my brothers current break cue and have yet to have any problems with it. So, in closing, I say to each his own! You using CA does not make me think any less of you as a cuemaker Ryan, this is becuse you warrenty your work and believe it works for you, so I believe you too.
-J