Cuemaking 101

[dzcues]

(not so) hypothetical situation: someone is buying Players Sneaky Petes for $39-$59 each, replacing or sanding the buttcap (to get rid of Players logo), applying his pencilled signature between the points & clearing over the signature, then selling them for $300 and up as custom made SPs.

Most would find this practice highly unethical but ethics aside, is this the mark of a clever entrepreneur? Or are there less than legal aspects to this practice?

Just checking my moral compass.

 

[RiverCity]

Its a friggin sleazy thing to do. I dont know if there are legal issues with it...... but morally its definately wrong.
I would also be interested in the folks paying 300 for the cues...... if they are inexperienced with cues of any kind, I can see the error on their part. But someone who knows cues should be able to look at the ferrule and tip and see its one of the chinese imports (to me they all look to be the same material with a lepro tip).
I would "out" the guy and save people 270 bucks a pop.
Chuck

 

[Brickman]

I would think that its wrong, not just legally but MORALLY.....I think it all boils down to representation....i.e. if he is calling them his work then he is stealing someone elses known product name and passing them off as his, but if he is selling them as Players conversions it would be fine, or at least it would seem so to me......My opinion is that the customer is the one who would have a case against this cue maker as what the cue maker is doing is FRAUD. I wouldnt think players could say much , because once a customer buys their product he/she can do with it what they want.But if I buy a " custom sneaky" and find out its a cheap players, I am going to be ticked, and I guarantee I get a refund.

With all that being said, I think its pitiful that a cuemaker has so little pride in his self and what his work might mean to him.....I am barely even getting started in this craft and yet that is sickenning to me.....My drive for this craft is the pride and love I want in my cues, not the fact that I can get X amount of dollars by cheating someone with a welfare cue that has been made to look custom.

SORRY SO CRASS but this kind of stuff really makes me want to puke......I mean there has to be at least some standard to live by......and I for one will ALWAYS choose to live above this kind of Garbage.

 

[billiardbum]

(not so) hypothetical situation: someone is buying Players Sneaky Petes for $39-$59 each, replacing or sanding the buttcap (to get rid of Players logo), applying his pencilled signature between the points & clearing over the signature, then selling them for $300 and up as custom made SPs.

Most would find this practice highly unethical but ethics aside, is this the mark of a clever entrepreneur? Or are there less than legal aspects to this practice?

Just checking my moral compass.

Happening in my area...Actually selling them for $150, but still against all of the reasons I make cues. Another person taking off the logo, but not signing it, and selling for $100. Maybe that is a little better, but both know, that I know what they do. Sales are really slowing down for them

 

[Sheldon]

(not so) hypothetical situation: someone is buying Players Sneaky Petes for $39-$59 each, replacing or sanding the buttcap (to get rid of Players logo), applying his pencilled signature between the points & clearing over the signature, then selling them for $300 and up as custom made SPs.
Most would find this practice highly unethical but ethics aside, is this the mark of a clever entrepreneur? Or are there less than legal aspects to this practice?
Just checking my moral compass.

Pretty bad, probably not legal or moral. However, I really don't think many of the people I deal with would ever be burned by someone like that. Besides, the people that want a "custom" cue generally do it because the standard specs are not to their liking.

To pass those cues, someone would have to be selling them as already built. Which means they are NOT CUSTOM CUES at all, just a cue with the wrong name on it.
I don't imagine they will sell too many of them before their reputation goes to $#%&.

 

[BHQ]

if that is the case and they are actually doing that, spill the beans.
tell everyone who the person(s) are.

no reason to let them go on doing it,
if you or anyone else can put the kabosh on thier sneaky asses
​

 

[bubsbug]

players

I guess anyone can justify or rationalize anything. My question would be, what is the difference between this and taking a run down bar cue and making that into a sneakypete. Selling it as you own. The fact that someones modifies someone's origional product doesnt change that product. What I mean is that if someone takes a mazda miata and makes it look like a porsh, fact is its still a miata. So what is the difference??
JB

 

[ratcues]

I guess anyone can justify or rationalize anything. My question would be, what is the difference between this and taking a run down bar cue and making that into a sneakypete. Selling it as you own. The fact that someones modifies someone's origional product doesnt change that product. What I mean is that if someone takes a mazda miata and makes it look like a porsh, fact is its still a miata. So what is the difference??
JB

The difference is representation. If I make the Miata look like a Porshe and sell it as a replica, its obvious and ok. If you make the Miata and advertise it as a Porshe, there is a huge problem.

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

About 10 years ago an old timer brought me 2 $30 hustlers & had me bore out the butt to fit a Meucci bumper. A few months latter he brought me 2 more. This time I asked him what he was doing with them? He said they were GIFTS, for family members. Some time after that one of them came into my shop, for a ferrule repair. Turns out he sold them all in taverns about 60 miles from me. When I told the guy what he had, he didn't believe me, till I told him that I had bored a hole in the butt, filled it with a Maple dowel & then rebored it to fit the Meucci bumper. Sure enough he took out the rubber bumper & there was the Maple plug. They were sold as Meucci's for $150...JER

 

[Brickman]

The difference is representation. If I make the Miata look like a Porshe and sell it as a replica, its obvious and ok. If you make the Miata and advertise it as a Porshe, there is a huge problem.

HEY RAT.......dont be stealing my words now

 

[MVPCues]

Hi Bob. You get your email problems worked out?

I think it is totally wrong, and might even be illegal. I personally try and draw a line between clever and deceitful, and entrepeneur and cheat.

If someone puts his signature on a cue, he is stating that is his work imo. People do it on bar cue conversions, cues made from purchased butt blanks, pointed forearms etc. When someone works on a cue, at what point does it become his work? Most probably have a rational viewpoint on that, but what you describe is clearly on the extreme end of stealing a product and deceiving the customer about the cue.

Kelly

 

[cubswin]

from a buyers perspective...if I found out about it I'd do my best to ruin his business both in local area's and online. Maybe thats harsh, but it is the truth.

I don't mind conversions of cues, or cue's made with others blanks if I know about it. But when you are trying to deceive and make a huge profit by doing so that just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[GoldRush cues]

if you dont expose them, there reputations will! just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Cue Crazy]

I feel the same way, to Me It is'nt ethical to simply scratch out the old, and put ones name on It. A conversion would be different, but then again I've had no desire to convert a players anyway. They are usually to skinny to work with IMO. Most valley house cues I've had were also, because I rarely get them with any thickness, but the older dufferins I have used, and with some there is plenty of room.

Seems like some have cues imported to put their name on them, but personally I consider those more of a production cue.

 

[macguy]

(not so) hypothetical situation: someone is buying Players Sneaky Petes for $39-$59 each, replacing or sanding the buttcap (to get rid of Players logo), applying his pencilled signature between the points & clearing over the signature, then selling them for $300 and up as custom made SPs.

Most would find this practice highly unethical but ethics aside, is this the mark of a clever entrepreneur? Or are there less than legal aspects to this practice?

Just checking my moral compass.

Some time back there were cues called Mohawk (sp). that were being reworked and passed off as southwests. If I remember right Southwest may have tried to take some legal action with the Mohawk cues because they were such knockoffs of Southwest cues.

I know one cue maker whose name would be recognizable to anyone here who was buying cues from K-mart (I swear to God) about $20.00. They had real spliced points and he used them as blanks that he made into cues people paid many hundreds of dollars.

Myself I used to sell Valley sp's I paid around $8.00 for. I would change the tips and fix the taper a bit in general improving the cues as best I could and sold them for around $50.00. They were well worth the money. I would bet I sold several thousand of those cues over those years. I remember on one trip I had maybe 80 cues in the car and sold them all in just 4 days. I would take them into a bar or pool room and sell one at a time as a used cue, like it is my cue and I want to sell it or a cue I won or something.

I would ask like $75. and would always get a low ball an offer of $30.00 to $50.00 for the cues which of course after a little negotiating I took considering what I had in the cue. If I was out for a week or two I would make $3000. or more off those cues, it was better then playing and easier.

It ended when for some reason they became hard to get. I could not get more the a dozen or two at a time and it took like 8 weeks to get them so it just died. Mike Massey turned me on to them, he made a lot of money on the road with the Valley sp's.

 

[bubsbug]

Some time back there were cues called Mohawk (sp). that were being reworked and passed off as southwests. If I remember right Southwest may have tried to take some legal action with the Mohawk cues because they were such knockoffs of Southwest cues.

I know one cue maker whose name would be recognizable to anyone here who was buying cues from K-mart (I swear to God) about $20.00. They had real spliced points and he used them as blanks that he made into cues people paid many hundreds of dollars.

Myself I used to sell Valley sp's I paid around $8.00 for. I would change the tips and fix the taper a bit in general improving the cues as best I could and sold them for around $50.00. They were well worth the money. I would bet I sold several thousand of those cues over those years. I remember on one trip I had maybe 80 cues in the car and sold them all in just 4 days. I would take them into a bar or pool room and sell one at a time as a used cue, like it is my cue and I want to sell it or a cue I won or something.

I would ask like $75. and would always get a low ball an offer of $30.00 to $50.00 for the cues which of course after a little negotiating I took considering what I had in the cue. If I was out for a week or two I would make $3000. or more off those cues, it was better then playing and easier.

It ended when for some reason they became hard to get. I could not get more the a dozen or two at a time and it took like 8 weeks to get them so it just died. Mike Massey turned me on to them, he made a lot of money on the road with the Valley sp's.

Im sorry, To me this sounds like hustling. I want to think that cuemakers build cues because they love the art of craftmanship, not to make a quick buck. These are the kind of things that keep people skeptical. Buyer beweare!!

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

(not so) hypothetical situation: someone is buying Players Sneaky Petes for $39-$59 each, replacing or sanding the buttcap (to get rid of Players logo), applying his pencilled signature between the points & clearing over the signature, then selling them for $300 and up as custom made SPs.

Most would find this practice highly unethical but ethics aside, is this the mark of a clever entrepreneur? Or are there less than legal aspects to this practice?

Just checking my moral compass.

It is strange to me that nobody got morally offended when those cues from Canada were offered. I don't see any difference.

 

[macguy]

Im sorry, To me this sounds like hustling. I want to think that cuemakers build cues because they love the art of craftmanship, not to make a quick buck. These are the kind of things that keep people skeptical. Buyer beweare!!

If you were reffering to me, buying cues wholesale and selling them on the road at a price that would be around what the billiards supplies were getting or less is hustling? Remember, I have reworked the cues, retapered in many instances, replaced the tips with good tips. These cues were a good deal for the buyer.

The only thing I did by selling them as used cues or my cue was to tap into the instinct most people have for a good deal, since they offer me what they feel is nothing for the cue, because they think I may need the money. It is just selling, nothing too ominous about it. They got a good cue for the money, no deception.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Exactly

It is strange to me that nobody got morally offended when those cues from Canada were offered. I don't see any difference.

Mr. Wadsworth -

I agree with you. We seem to have a selective memory on morals.

More on the sneakies, I had a local cuemaker take the Players or J and J and put a "southwest" style pin in, replace the ferrelle and the tips. He sold them for 100. He sold them as "tuned" sneakys and the played pretty well.

Now is that wrong? I think not.

How many cuemakers are using Prather forearms and not mentioning that?

JMO

Ken

 

[MVPCues]

It is strange to me that nobody got morally offended when those cues from Canada were offered. I don't see any difference.

I disagree with you, I see a difference. When I look at that picture, I don't see cues, I see blanks.

We all know those were made by Falcon for Predator. Predator can't keep duc from selling them, but they can keep him from advertising them as Predator blanks. I presume a buyer of those blanks would put in a joint, add his own custom shaft, possibly add a wrap, possibly some inlays. Some turns might have to be made on those to clean them up and bring them to size, maybe even some bumping to even the points. Maybe some will do nothing but add a joint and shaft, but that is not the same as what Bob has described. If a maker buys one of the predator blanks and does little to change it and signs his name and then tells people he made the blank or lets people assume he made the blank, then there is definitely some deceit involved, but not to the level Bob has described. Furthermore, if someone finishes those blanks, adds his own shaft, adds a wrap etc...and when he shows it to people tells them it is full splice under the wrap and the blank was made by the same people who made predator blanks, there is absolutely zero deceit involved.

I see little difference in selling those predator blanks than Prather selling butt blanks with a cap installed. What each cuemaker does with it, how he advertises it etc is what makes it either wrong or ok. Arnot, you may never buy a blank at any time, so you may have a dim view of buying any blank from anyone and finishing it into a cue period. You certainly have a right to take that viewpoint, but that is far different than buying players cue completely finished and removing the logo and signing one's name.

Just my opinion,
Kelly