Curious about bartering

rrussotwo

rrussotwo

Jedi Knight
Silver Member
Another thread sparked this and I was hoping to have some cuemakers chime in.

I've wondered about the bartering thing. Do cuemakers like getting websites for cues?

Just asking as my degree is in graphic design and I build web applications and specialize in user interaction and interface design.

I never thought of offering services for trade because most (not all) of the cue websites out there suck balls. I specialize in content managed custom development, e-learning, and ecommerce. I just can't see doing $2,000 worth of work for a $500 cue, so I guess I'm having a hard time seeing both sides of the equation.

One one hand the design mostly sucks and that might be because they are getting crap design for cheaper cues, but it is no excuse. The cue might be 2 grand, but I'm sure it plays great. It is the designer that is willing to enter the agreement and therefore must turn out quality equal to the cue being given. On the other hand, any designer that puts out crappy work for a client should be shot.

I could never, in good faith, do substandard work for ANYONE, regardless if I'm taking a bath on the project.

I just don't see how these guys do it, unless they're hobbyists as the going rate for professional custom design/development is between $100 and $200 and hour. The average content managed site using off the shelf open source software and a one off template would be about $2,000. Once the client wants an e-commerce site, the price shoots to at least 10k for a custom designed site with features unique to them.

There's also the matter of updates as these systems need to be updated to remain secure. You don't want a client getting hacked and sending tons of spam from their domain.

I'm looking to hear from cuemakers who have engaged in bartering cues for design/development and am eager to know how the relationship has played out.

Are you happy?

How much was the cue you traded?

Would you do it again?
 
I just can't see doing $2,000 worth of work for a $500 cue
Click to expand...

Pretty sure many of the cue makers have been approached by site builders.
And it does go both ways, I doubt many well known makers are going to be handing over $2000 cues for a web site.

If you are included in the A listers that can sell a cue for 2 big ones, chances are they have a waiting list and don't need to advertise.

Basic sites are all that is needed.
Shop Tour. Optional, altho may makers are proud of their shop and like customers to see where the cues are being made.
Gallery of cues.
Cues in progress
Available cues
Price list for repair work

You don't need Beethoven's 5th playing in the background and you don't need Disney animations to display your work.
If you feel that the current sites Suck Balls, fine. I doubt you will win any contracts and cue offers for that one as
most cue makers probably build and maintain their own, I bet.

WOW, they charge $200 per hr for web design. Probably why there are so many out of work web designers that want to trade sites for cues.
 
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Hi,

I am putting my website together right now and to tell you the truth I don't think that having more than the following things is going to generate more hits or sales than have some high graphics adventure paying some $ 200.00 per hour.

Home Page
Mission Statement
Cue Makers Story - Background and Historical Sketch
Explanation of the cues design engineering and market niche
Shop Tour
Pics of Cues for sale
Pics of Sold Cues
Pics of Cues in Progress

Having great pics of your cues on a dedicated page per cue with pricing info should help the customer make a decision. It does not hurt to show sold cues because someone may say, make me one like that.

On my site, I plan on showing cue blanks .020 over size, sealed, unfinished without the pin installed. This way the customer has the option to add inlays to the points and butt sleeve in our artwork.

I am not saying your not worth that money but we are not selling Lexus cars here. People who pay $ 2,000.00 for a cue for example, don't want the Madison Ave sales pitch. The are looking for the hand crafted custom made product made here in the US by an American Cue Maker with the know how and track record. As soon as you go hollywood with the fancy website, IMO you loose that one on one imagery with the player. Keep it simple!

If a customer goes to a cue makers sight they have doubtless heard of the CM or have played with one of his cues and they liked it. The website is just the conduit. I don't think people search the internet trolling for cue makers they have not heard of and then say, I think I'll buy this one. People who do that buy a $ 100.00 China cue online.

Pool players want to have a connection to the custom cue maker and are willing to pay larger dollars because they want something or some feature that that cue offers in playability and fit, finish and design. My cues for example, have a reputation for a very firm hit because of the taper design of the shaft and the butt geometry. I am losing a large part of the market share potential by only offering this feature element to my cues but it does not matter because building 50 cues per year will keep my sorry ass busy enough. I don't want to be all things to all people.

After market sales residual value is one of the biggest factors in someone's decision making when making a high dollar cue purchase. The website does nothing for that area.

$ 200.00 per hour website contractor who generate hits and create sales with sexy graphics and fancy features are great when your dealing with a client that has large dollar commodity volume sales.

Most cue makers who make a living doing this are after smaller volume proprietary sales at a high price point per unit. If they are successful they can make $50.00 to $ 100.00 per hour for their labor after expenses. Quality Cue Making takes a lot of time and effort to do it in a world class manner.

I pay Tony at the Shell Station $ 75.00 per hr. to work on my car.:killingme:

Rick Geschrey
 
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Mr. Web Designer, what can you do for $200 an hour.
Mr. Fancy Schmancy Web Designer. Why, I will do anything for $200.

Good, heres a can of paint. Paint my house.

Wheres Murray Tucker when you need him. He did an absolutely hilarious Xtra Normal video re the trading of cues for web site design.
I'm going to go find him.
 
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"I just don't see how these guys do it, unless they're hobbyists as the going rate for professional custom design/development is between $100 and $200 and hour. The average content managed site using off the shelf open source software and a one off template would be about $2,000. Once the client wants an e-commerce site, the price shoots to at least 10k for a custom designed site with features unique to them."

Waiter/Drug Dealer, I'll have some of what he's smoking please!

Gary
 
rrussotwo said:
Another thread sparked this and I was hoping to have some cuemakers chime in.

I've wondered about the bartering thing. Do cuemakers like getting websites for cues?

Just asking as my degree is in graphic design and I build web applications and specialize in user interaction and interface design.

I never thought of offering services for trade because most (not all) of the cue websites out there suck balls. I specialize in content managed custom development, e-learning, and ecommerce. I just can't see doing $2,000 worth of work for a $500 cue, so I guess I'm having a hard time seeing both sides of the equation.

One one hand the design mostly sucks and that might be because they are getting crap design for cheaper cues, but it is no excuse. The cue might be 2 grand, but I'm sure it plays great. It is the designer that is willing to enter the agreement and therefore must turn out quality equal to the cue being given. On the other hand, any designer that puts out crappy work for a client should be shot.

I could never, in good faith, do substandard work for ANYONE, regardless if I'm taking a bath on the project.

I just don't see how these guys do it, unless they're hobbyists as the going rate for professional custom design/development is between $100 and $200 and hour. The average content managed site using off the shelf open source software and a one off template would be about $2,000. Once the client wants an e-commerce site, the price shoots to at least 10k for a custom designed site with features unique to them.

There's also the matter of updates as these systems need to be updated to remain secure. You don't want a client getting hacked and sending tons of spam from their domain.

I'm looking to hear from cuemakers who have engaged in bartering cues for design/development and am eager to know how the relationship has played out.

Are you happy?

How much was the cue you traded?

Would you do it again?
Click to expand...


WOW!!!! all that to ask 3 questions, "are you happy, how much was traded, and would you do it again." what kind of "content management" do you specialize in again? this one is good though "One one hand the design mostly sucks and that might be because they are getting crap design for cheaper cues, but it is no excuse." ONE ONE hand????? aahhh, the advantages of a college education. heres a thought, buy the wood and machinery to make a cue. post it over here and then we can talk about sucky websites.
 
This wasn't a knock against cuemakers, or one against these designer/developers. Maybe it wasn't fair.

I see them hawking their skills on here and craigslist for trade.

As far as the $100-$200 an hour, that's about right for design and development of a custom website. Some are cheaper, some are way more expensive. I've gotten ripped off and I've been payed fairly in the past. I've done UI design that never got published and I've written software used by 50 million people.

Like someone said earlier about top cuemakers. They have waiting lists, they don't need the advertisement. Neither do good designers and developers. They have full time jobs. They have to turn away freelance. This is why I don't understand the relationship. Even the cuemakers using these guys services make great cues. So you have unemployed designer/developers trading not so good work for good cues. You don't survive on AZ unless you make a good cue. Word travels too fast. I've bought cues from these guys and have been blown away by the cues I got and always praise their efforts in my posts.

Unemployed designer/developers are usually unemployed for a reason. There seems to be much hostility in this thread. It is my fault. I wasn't trolling and have been a designer/developer for about a decade, a college student, computer tech, ditch digger, DJ, music producer, and paperboy. There's always a job out there. It might not pay what you want, but if you're good, the good jobs find you.

As far as content management systems, I've used the following for clients: Wordpress, Drupal, MovableType, Plone, and Rhythmyx. I really specialize in Learning Management Systems and am NOT trying to drum up business with an asshole-ish rant.

It was a rant, but I've been so impressed and happy with the quality of people here on AZ, I was hoping to get some objective insight into this phenomenon.

To the person who pointed out the ONE ONE, I typed that (and this) on an iPhone. Sorry.
 
I've seen designer/developers work for as little as $35 an hour, but they usually are hobbyists who know how to use their pirated Photoshop and Dreamweaver. Their work ranges from utter crap to meh. If they ever get good, they charge more.

I've also worked with people who make well over $200 an hour. I've seen sites go for as high as $100k. Good design is not cheap. Good development is not cheap. Good designers are not usually good developers. Good developers usually have no clue about design.

When someone is good at both, try command higher premiums because they SAVE their client money. One guy at $120 an hour for 20 hours is cheaper than 2 guys at 75 an hour for 20 hours each.

Btw, unless you are selling music, playing music on your site is a BIG no no.
 
WOW!

Let me say this; I am not a cue maker.

But, Damn! A guy makes a statement, then asks some pretty simple questoins, and "BAM!" you guys come out of the wood work to chastise the man. He must have struck a chord.

I know you guys are around chemicals, wood and metal all day; but try to lighten up a bit.

EDIT: I am in the IT field, his numbers are spot on.

Josh
 
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I never see cue makers asking to trade cues for web-sites, only IT guys asking if anybody will trade. If cue makers charged $35-$200/hr. then nobody could afford a cue. If you IT guys make that much money, then quit haggling over a trade & just buy the cue outright. Cue makers want to be paid for their work in currency that pays their bills & buys them food. IMO, IT guys offer up some of their spare time to trade for a cue maker's professional work. Worse yet, yall bring up the topic in an open forum, and then can't understand why cue makers answer with a condescending tone?

I have had NUMEROUS IT guys ask me to trade cues for a site. I always say no. Finally, one guy tells me that he only wants to build me one so he can show his skills, as an advertisement of sorts. I still say no but he nags & nags & nags. I finally relent. Next thing I know, he's having troubles with naming the site because somebody had already bought the domain name & was sitting on it. Finally get that worked out & the site is completed. Then he calls me to tell me how much I gotta pay for web space. Keep in mind I never wanted a web site & never wanted any advertising. Now i'm having to pay yearly fees to have it. It's not expensive, so ok. Still annoying. Got the site that was supposed to be just a gallery with a blog, but now it has a contact button where messages from the site go to my personal email :angry: Very f*cking annoying!!!! Now after all the BS I went through over this site, i'm now being bombarded by emails from folks I have no clue who they are, and the blog is interactive so it's getting bombarded with spam. A friend of mine calls me up to ask how much I paid for the site & I tell him nothing. He says that's good because it's a cheap, generic site that I could have tossed together myself for free. He then tells me that if I wanted a 'real' site, that he could help me out with it. He was actually being a friend & being honest. I believe him. He's a super successful internet business guru & knows web-sites. So that kinda aggravated me a bit more with the guy who built the site. But wait, there's more!!!! The dude calls me up to ask how his cue is coming along, and how much he owes. I tell him when I think I might be able to get to it & how much it'll be. He then reminds me of the web-site that he worked so diligently on & had the balls to tell me how much he charges for sites like that, insinuating that it will cost me more than the cue is worth if I actually make him pay for a cue. So this begging me to build a site to advertise his skill has now turned in to trying to strong arm me into GIVING him a cue. Seriously.

I read between the lines & told him ok, we'll work it out when the cue is done. That time, I think he realizes by now, is never going to come. The only thing I hate more than being lied to & scammed is somebody actually trying to strong arm me into doing something I didn't agree to. I found out soon after all of this that he had also screwed another cue maker, under different circumstances but still utilizing dishonest tactics to get his way. I told him then to do what it took to make things right. He swore it was all a misunderstanding & he never intended wrong, that he'd make it right. Never happened, but he told me how much he did to correct it & how he would stop the business he piggy backed off of this other cue maker. That never happened, either. He just lied over & over. I guess he thinks we cue makers aren't friends & don't communicate.

Anyway, I washed my hands with the guy. I don't need that crap. But i'm still stuck with this BS web-site that gets spammed all the time & overloads my email with crap I don't want or need. So naturally my opinion on trading web-sites for cues is not a great one. I never even made that deal and somebody tried to force it on me after the fact. It's not worth it. I'm sure a good IT guy is worth what he gets paid. He should be able to afford a cue. If a cue maker approaches an IT guy wanting to trade, then that's another story. But I have yet to see that happen. All I see is cue makers being exploited with BS cheap sites for their hard work. It takes months or years to build a good cue. It takes hours to build a web-site. If bartering is going to be an option then it has to be fair & not weighed by market value of each skill. If it is then cue makers always lose. There's no lack of computer nerds & a good site can be had easy for any builder seriously considering a site. The thread wanted opinions & this is mine. I refrained from posting for a while but once I seen the confusion over the animosity cue makers have towards IT guys trying to trade cues for sites, I figured i'd share my experience & give an example of why we don't want to trade cues for sites. We always get screwed.
 
2 large

WOW!!!$2k!!!it had better come with a guarantee that I'll make my money back in a hurry!Id rather barter for wood/supplies like I do now over a site that cost that much to make then have to pay per month just to keep it.....JMHO
 
qbilder said:
.... But i'm still stuck with this BS web-site that gets spammed all the time & overloads my email with crap I don't want or need. .....
Click to expand...

Stop paying and it will go away. Seriously, if you do not want a website then you CAN make it go away, with or without any help. The current domain name is registered until Jan 30 2013, which is when the "don't pay" plan would make it go away. Otherwise you can cancel the registration with godaddy.com, assuming that you were listed on the registration as an authority. If your designer registered the domain with his name as the authority then he has to cancel it.

Another option would be to tell the hosting outfit (Peer 1 Network Inc.) to shut it down.

Good luck.

Dave
 
DaveK said:
Stop paying and it will go away. Seriously, if you do not want a website then you CAN make it go away, with or without any help. The current domain name is registered until Jan 30 2013, which is when the "don't pay" plan would make it go away. Otherwise you can cancel the registration with godaddy.com, assuming that you were listed on the registration as an authority. If your designer registered the domain with his name as the authority then he has to cancel it.

Another option would be to tell the hosting outfit (Peer 1 Network Inc.) to shut it down.

Good luck.

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave, Eric,

You might not want to give up the domain name quite so quickly. If this guy gets mad and has access to the site or can buy the domain name, he could cause you misery. Yes, shut down the site if you don't like it, but keep the domain name - they are cheap but hard to get the one you want sometimes.

My 2 cents,

Gary
 
JoeyInCali said:
A Facebook page, Twitter account and Youtube channel, who needs a website ?
Click to expand...

Hi,

I have GoDaddy and they have a program called "website tonight". Everything is interactive cut and paste text and Pic. No HTML code to have to deal with.

I bought a 999 page website for $ 12.95 per month with Email, domain name and all the other stuff you need - no blog. You can get 8 pages for like $ 9.00 or 999 pages for $ 13.00 go figure. I will never need 999 but I plan on have a dedicated page for each cue offered instead of small little pic of multiple cue you can clic to blow up.

It's funny, I have a cue maker friend who went with the I'll trade a cue for your website type of thing also. The story that Eric told of his experience was almost identical to my friends.

The only kicker is that my friend was paying this guy when ever he wanted to post new pic because he as the cue maker was not able to under stand the code required to do that. :shocked2:

That was 10 years ago, things have changed.

Rick
 
qbilder said:
I never see cue makers asking to trade cues for web-sites, only IT guys asking if anybody will trade. If cue makers charged $35-$200/hr. then nobody could afford a cue. If you IT guys make that much money, then quit haggling over a trade & just buy the cue outright. Cue makers want to be paid for their work in currency that pays their bills & buys them food. IMO, IT guys offer up some of their spare time to trade for a cue maker's professional work. Worse yet, yall bring up the topic in an open forum, and then can't understand why cue makers answer with a condescending tone?

I have had NUMEROUS IT guys ask me to trade cues for a site. I always say no. Finally, one guy tells me that he only wants to build me one so he can show his skills, as an advertisement of sorts. I still say no but he nags & nags & nags. I finally relent. Next thing I know, he's having troubles with naming the site because somebody had already bought the domain name & was sitting on it. Finally get that worked out & the site is completed. Then he calls me to tell me how much I gotta pay for web space. Keep in mind I never wanted a web site & never wanted any advertising. Now i'm having to pay yearly fees to have it. It's not expensive, so ok. Still annoying. Got the site that was supposed to be just a gallery with a blog, but now it has a contact button where messages from the site go to my personal email :angry: Very f*cking annoying!!!! Now after all the BS I went through over this site, i'm now being bombarded by emails from folks I have no clue who they are, and the blog is interactive so it's getting bombarded with spam. A friend of mine calls me up to ask how much I paid for the site & I tell him nothing. He says that's good because it's a cheap, generic site that I could have tossed together myself for free. He then tells me that if I wanted a 'real' site, that he could help me out with it. He was actually being a friend & being honest. I believe him. He's a super successful internet business guru & knows web-sites. So that kinda aggravated me a bit more with the guy who built the site. But wait, there's more!!!! The dude calls me up to ask how his cue is coming along, and how much he owes. I tell him when I think I might be able to get to it & how much it'll be. He then reminds me of the web-site that he worked so diligently on & had the balls to tell me how much he charges for sites like that, insinuating that it will cost me more than the cue is worth if I actually make him pay for a cue. So this begging me to build a site to advertise his skill has now turned in to trying to strong arm me into GIVING him a cue. Seriously.

I read between the lines & told him ok, we'll work it out when the cue is done. That time, I think he realizes by now, is never going to come. The only thing I hate more than being lied to & scammed is somebody actually trying to strong arm me into doing something I didn't agree to. I found out soon after all of this that he had also screwed another cue maker, under different circumstances but still utilizing dishonest tactics to get his way. I told him then to do what it took to make things right. He swore it was all a misunderstanding & he never intended wrong, that he'd make it right. Never happened, but he told me how much he did to correct it & how he would stop the business he piggy backed off of this other cue maker. That never happened, either. He just lied over & over. I guess he thinks we cue makers aren't friends & don't communicate.

Anyway, I washed my hands with the guy. I don't need that crap. But i'm still stuck with this BS web-site that gets spammed all the time & overloads my email with crap I don't want or need. So naturally my opinion on trading web-sites for cues is not a great one. I never even made that deal and somebody tried to force it on me after the fact. It's not worth it. I'm sure a good IT guy is worth what he gets paid. He should be able to afford a cue. If a cue maker approaches an IT guy wanting to trade, then that's another story. But I have yet to see that happen. All I see is cue makers being exploited with BS cheap sites for their hard work. It takes months or years to build a good cue. It takes hours to build a web-site. If bartering is going to be an option then it has to be fair & not weighed by market value of each skill. If it is then cue makers always lose. There's no lack of computer nerds & a good site can be had easy for any builder seriously considering a site. The thread wanted opinions & this is mine. I refrained from posting for a while but once I seen the confusion over the animosity cue makers have towards IT guys trying to trade cues for sites, I figured i'd share my experience & give an example of why we don't want to trade cues for sites. We always get screwed.
Click to expand...


Yeah, like I said, he must have struck a chord.

You posted your experience and opinion; good post. You didn't belittle the man like most.

Everyone just needs to keep in mind; just like you, time is money to an "IT guy" as well. Just like you, we get paid for our craft. The tools are just different. True web application design/building takes more the just "hours". Yet it is true any idiot can throw together a straight HTML web site using note pad and Google. Ask Bob Dzuricky now long it took him to build his own site.

I wont comment on the shady character; but I will point out, there are also shady cue makers (please don't take this a pointing to Eric).

Josh
 
scdiveteam said:
Hi,

I have GoDaddy and they have a program called "website tonight". Everything is interactive cut and paste text and Pic. No HTML code to have to deal with.

I bought a 999 page website for $ 12.95 per month with Email, domain name and all the other stuff you need - no blog. You can get 8 pages for like $ 9.00 or 999 pages for $ 13.00 go figure. I will never need 999 but I plan on have a dedicated page for each cue offered instead of small little pic of multiple cue you can clic to blow up.

It's funny, I have a cue maker friend who went with the I'll trade a cue for your website type of thing also. The story that Eric told of his experience was almost identical to my friends.

The only kicker is that my friend was paying this guy when ever he wanted to post new pic because he as the cue maker was not able to under stand the code required to do that. :shocked2:

That was 10 years ago, things have changed.

Rick
Click to expand...

This stuff is nice, but I don't think it is what the OP was talking about. True web app design/building is not drag-n-drop or cut-n-paste.

If he were to truely design you an app, I'm sure you would have the ability to add pics and text without the need for code knowlegde. We could code you and Admin side so you could cut-n-paste and drag-n-drop. That is a web app, not a web site. It would also be secure, and could parse and delete your spam email.

Sorry for all this, but......I'm just say'n.

Josh
 
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Eric,

You can stop getting emails from the contact pretty easily. There are a few ways to do it with a CMS. If you want it to stop shoot me a PM and I'll explain it to you.

David
 
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