# Cushions increasing ball speed

#### SUPERSTAR

##### I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
The only other thing that comes to mind is if a rail kicks the ball in the air, and for a split second, you have the airborne time when the ball isn't experienceing the friction of the cloth.

Other then that, I would think that if a ball picks up natural spin off of rails, that the 2+ rail phenomenon might not be all in the players heads.

Not that it increases speed, but if the spin is a factor, i can see a player scratching their head wondering how the ball maintained a certain speed to well, off of rails that are goofy.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
Players at my local pool hall seem convinced that a Diamond bar table they use increases the speed of the ball after rebounding off the cushion.

Obviously you can stun a shot with spin and make it speed up off a rail, but can a center english shot actually gain speed after contacting a rail?

I find it hard to believe...where does the extra energy come from? They seem to think the cushions can add energy. I think only transferring spin to linear movement can do this. Especially if a ball hits a rail with any kind of forward spin.

Paging Dr Dave and Mr Jewett....

I'm not Dr Dave or Mr Jewett, but if you tell me which pool room this Diamond table is in, when I get to California maybe I'll stop by and perform some of my "realkingcobra" magic on it and chage the way the table plays, I might just suprise you and everyone there that plays on the table....as I'm just a mechanic

Glen

#### Tramp Steamer

##### One Pocket enthusiast.
Silver Member
Yeah, and I didn't mean any disrespect by it. While I vividly remember all of my math and physics lessons, there is a lot of history and social studies that I didn't pay attention to. We all have our strengths, right?

dld

I remember the girl who sat in front of me in study hall. She was so big I couldn't see the front of the room. She also had hair on her back and since study hall was right after lunch, I sometimes felt like tossing my cookies when I looked at her.
Pool related you say. Okay, she was as big as a snooker table. :wink:

#### 8pack

##### They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
[/QUOTE]
Dave

PS: BTW, the short answer to your question is: Yes ... it is not possible. Now, the CB can come out faster if it has running English or masse, but I think that is a different question.[/QUOTE]

Lets just say you where playing on and this did happen(The ball speeds up after
hitting the rail) what could cause this.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
Dave

PS: BTW, the short answer to your question is: Yes ... it is not possible. Now, the CB can come out faster if it has running English or masse, but I think that is a different question.[/QUOTE]

Lets just say you where playing on and this did happen(The ball speeds up after
hitting the rail) what could cause this.[/QUOTE]

A better question would be what would happen next to the cue ball. Well if it could pick up speed after hitting the first cushion, then it would pick up even more hitting the second cushion, then the third....until eventually the cue ball was traveling soooooooo fast that the cushions could no longer contain the cue ball on the table, then the cue ball would end up flying up in the air off the end rail....right back at the player...hit him right between his eyes....and knock his ass right out, forfeiting the game, and his opponent would win by default

Glen

PS. There is no what if, it CAN'T happen, it's physically impossible

#### 8pack

##### They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
Dave

PS: BTW, the short answer to your question is: Yes ... it is not possible. Now, the CB can come out faster if it has running English or masse, but I think that is a different question.

Lets just say you where playing on and this did happen(The ball speeds up after
hitting the rail) what could cause this.[/QUOTE]
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I see a small wager in the making,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,give me odds and i will produce a video for you...

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#### Celtic

Silver Member
Lets just say you where playing on and this did happen(The ball speeds up after
hitting the rail) what could cause this.[/QUOTE]

A uneven table where the ball is in effect rolling "downhill" after hitting the rail would transfer that potential energy via the force of gravity thus increasing the speed of the ball after rail contact and transfering potential energy (height) into kinetic energy (speed).

If the rail was set with a system like a pinball bumper that actually forced the ball off of the rail with added energy this would also happen, did the table you were playing on happen to have a plugin and make beeping sounds?

There are other dumb ways it could happen that would be explainable via physics, but generally speaking it is NOT possible under any normal situation.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
Lets just say you where playing on and this did happen(The ball speeds up after
hitting the rail) what could cause this.

A better question would be what would happen next to the cue ball. Well if it could pick up speed after hitting the first cushion, then it would pick up even more hitting the second cushion, then the third....until eventually the cue ball was traveling SO fast that the cushions could no longer contain the cue ball on the table, then the cue ball would end up flying up in the air off the end rail....right back at the player...hit him right between his eyes....and knock his ass right out, forfeiting the game, and his opponent would win by default

Glen

PS. There is no what if, it CAN'T happen, it's physically impossible[/QUOTE]
______________________________________________________________________

I see a small wager in the making,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,give me odds and i will produce a video for you...[/QUOTE]

I see someone else that questions my knowledge as a mechanic. Save your money, as videos can be altered, and learn something in the process. If I were to bet you on this, I'd bet you for ALL your money, not just a little.

Take a super-ball, bounce it on the ground as hard as you can, watch how high it bounces, then let it bounce on the ground again, and watch and see if the second bounce is higher than the first....or shorter, because that's the same energy you're talking about with a cue ball coming off a cushion faster than it goes into it

#### JoeyInCali

##### Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
A better question would be what would happen next to the cue ball. Well if it could pick up speed after hitting the first cushion, then it would pick up even more hitting the second cushion, then the third....until eventually the cue ball was traveling SO fast that the cushions could no longer contain the cue ball on the table, then the cue ball would end up flying up in the air off the end rail....right back at the player...hit him right between his eyes....and knock his ass right out, forfeiting the game, and his opponent would win by default

Glen

PS. There is no what if, it CAN'T happen, it's physically impossible
______________________________________________________________________

I see a small wager in the making,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,give me odds and i will produce a video for you...[/QUOTE]

I see someone else that questions my knowledge as a mechanic. Save your money, as videos can be altered, and learn something in the process. If I were to bet you on this, I'd bet you for ALL your money, not just a little.

Take a super-ball, bounce it on the ground as hard as you can, watch how high it bounces, then let it bounce on the ground again, and watch and see if the second bounce is higher than the first....or shorter, because that's the same energy you're talking about with a cue ball coming off a cushion faster than it goes into it[/QUOTE]

If it happened we can have free electricity.
Imagine a pendulum bouncing off two cushions infinitely!

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Lets just say you where playing on and this did happen(The ball speeds up after
hitting the rail) what could cause this.
A uneven table where the ball is in effect rolling "downhill" after hitting the rail would transfer that potential energy via the force of gravity thus increasing the speed of the ball after rail contact and transfering potential energy (height) into kinetic energy (speed).

If the rail was set with a system like a pinball bumper that actually forced the ball off of the rail with added energy this would also happen, did the table you were playing on happen to have a plugin and make beeping sounds?

There are other dumb ways it could happen that would be explainable via physics, but generally speaking it is NOT possible under any normal situation.
Good answers. I can think of many more along these lines, but they are also silly.

Another possibility is if the cushion could somehow convert the rotation of the ball into stored energy that could somehow be returned to the ball as translational energy, but I can't imagine any way this could be possible with regulation pool equipment.

Again, I think this video explains and demonstrates the physics quite well:

The CB looses quite a bit of speed off a rail, even with slick conditions.

Regards,
Dave

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#### 8pack

##### They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
A better question would be what would happen next to the cue ball. Well if it could pick up speed after hitting the first cushion, then it would pick up even more hitting the second cushion, then the third....until eventually the cue ball was traveling SO fast that the cushions could no longer contain the cue ball on the table, then the cue ball would end up flying up in the air off the end rail....right back at the player...hit him right between his eyes....and knock his ass right out, forfeiting the game, and his opponent would win by default

Glen

PS. There is no what if, it CAN'T happen, it's physically impossible
______________________________________________________________________

I see a small wager in the making,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,give me odds and i will produce a video for you...[/QUOTE]

I see someone else that questions my knowledge as a mechanic. Save your money, as videos can be altered, and learn something in the process. If I were to bet you on this, I'd bet you for ALL your money, not just a little.

Take a super-ball, bounce it on the ground as hard as you can, watch how high it bounces, then let it bounce on the ground again, and watch and see if the second bounce is higher than the first....or shorter, because that's the same energy you're talking about with a cue ball coming off a cushion faster than it goes into it[/QUOTE]
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I woudnt cheat you.Now your never going to know what you dont know.

#### Underclocked

##### .........Whut?.........
Silver Member
Let's say the rails are enriched with Uranium 235 and cue ball is reallly a low energy neutron... :grin-square:

#### chevybob20

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let's say the rails are enriched with Uranium 235 and cue ball is reallly a low energy neutron... :grin-square:

Assuming the neutron was either born at the proper speed or thermalized to the proper speed for the microscopic crossection of absorbtion for the U235 atom, then the incident neutron would exit with a higher speed after the fission event along with the rest of the neutrons, but the total resultant energy from the fission still does not add up to the energy stored in the U235 atom. E = M(C squared) where M is the mass deficit from the component parts of the atom and the total mass weight and C is the speed of light in mega-electron volts or 931 Mev. Energy is gained but it is converted from the mass change after fissioning the U235 atom. Nothing is free not even in nuclear physics.

#### iusedtoberich

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I see a small wager in the making,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,give me odds and i will produce a video for you...

I woudnt cheat you.Now your never going to know what you dont know.

I'll put up \$20 to you \$10. Its worth it to me if I lose to know something more. You make a ball exit the rail at a faster speed then it entered at. No sidespin. Normal ball and normal table. No tricks.

I've seen plenty of tables that were way faster than they were supposed to be, even to the point of looking faster than when the ball entered. But I agree with the physics its not possible.

#### greenlight

##### Go
Silver Member
I am going to side with the impossible group on this one, even though my eyes have told me different at times. Reminds me of this one road you can drive on around here and you would swear you were driving up hill, but your really going down. You cant always trust what you see.

#### Underclocked

##### .........Whut?.........
Silver Member
chevybob20, :winknudge:

yep, dat'z rite.

#### chevybob20

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am going to side with the impossible group on this one, even though my eyes have told me different at times.

I have felt this too. If ever in Chattanooga, stop in CBC East(Chattanooga Billiard Club) and shoot some. The Gold Crowns are wicked fast. I measured the cushion nose hieght against the ones at Mr. Q's in Atlanta and found the CBC tables to be 3/16 of an inch shorter, causing the cushion to contact the cue more in the center. The rails bank extremely short. Massive amouts of adjustment is required when playing on these tables. They bank shorter than Diamonds.

#### 8pack

##### They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
I'll put up \$20 to you \$10. Its worth it to me if I lose to know something more. You make a ball exit the rail at a faster speed then it entered at. No sidespin. Normal ball and normal table. No tricks.

I've seen plenty of tables that were way faster than they were supposed to be, even to the point of looking faster than when the ball entered. But I agree with the physics its not possible.

I want 100 to 1 odds .Everyone says it cant be done .So you cant possibly
lose.Do you think with your eyes you can tell whether or not the balls speeding up after hit the rail?

I just shot the shot infront of 6 people ,everyone said the ball pick up
speed after hit the rail.(EveryOne) But our eyes re probably tricking us.
But if you seen for yourself you would agree 100 percent....
Something is not right about the rails on this table.

#### iusedtoberich

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'll give you infinite odds: I'll put up 20 if you win, you put up 0 if you lose.

I agree with you I've played on some GC's with messed up rails that look like the ball was coming out faster than it was going it. But I think what is going on is it is so different than what we expect on normal rails, that our mind thinks its faster on the way out then on the way in.

I don't want to bet too much, because I can see this turning into a proof argument that will end up being a whole bunch of hassle for everyone involved.

#### pt109

##### WO double hemlock
Silver Member
??????

I want 100 to 1 odds .Everyone says it cant be done .So you cant possibly
lose.Do you think with your eyes you can tell whether or not the balls speeding up after hit the rail?

I just shot the shot infront of 6 people ,everyone said the ball pick up
speed after hit the rail.(EveryOne) But our eyes re probably tricking us.
But if you seen for yourself you would agree 100 percent....
Something is not right about the rails on this table.

I think what you are seeing is the ball leaving the rail faster than
anticipated.
If the ball is gaining energy you are breaking the 2nd law of
thermodynamics.
This is illegal and incarceration may result.