Custom Cue Mythology
- Thread starter Grilled Cheese
- Start date
Only reason I may buy a custom cue: to get the following properties that effect my playing that are unrelated to the aesthetics:
-Heavier cue that is forward balanced. Pretty much all production cues that are heavier put the weight in the back. I like a short bridge, so I need forward balance or else the cue will barely lay on my open bridge. In addition, a larger mass to push engages more of my muscle and reduces the minimum speed I can shoot at. The more extreme amounts of muscle engagement, the worse your accuracy will be - both hitting very hard and very soft.
The other reason was long cue, so I could reach further shots, but extensions seem to work fine.
I'd replace the shaft with a OB-2 or the new Pro one. That's the main reason holding me back, no one will make me a nice cheaper one with that one spec without a shaft.
I prefer radial pin because it is the least amount of turns and the most contact in-case it for some reason isn't screwed down tight. Unfortunately this usually means no metal collar and less forward balance. Forget that isn't that quick-release lack of contact crap.
Also, nothing will ever warp if you throw rice in your cue case.
-Heavier cue that is forward balanced. Pretty much all production cues that are heavier put the weight in the back. I like a short bridge, so I need forward balance or else the cue will barely lay on my open bridge. In addition, a larger mass to push engages more of my muscle and reduces the minimum speed I can shoot at. The more extreme amounts of muscle engagement, the worse your accuracy will be - both hitting very hard and very soft.
The other reason was long cue, so I could reach further shots, but extensions seem to work fine.
I'd replace the shaft with a OB-2 or the new Pro one. That's the main reason holding me back, no one will make me a nice cheaper one with that one spec without a shaft.
I prefer radial pin because it is the least amount of turns and the most contact in-case it for some reason isn't screwed down tight. Unfortunately this usually means no metal collar and less forward balance. Forget that isn't that quick-release lack of contact crap.
Also, nothing will ever warp if you throw rice in your cue case.
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Great post,on a sticky subject
Just about a perfect post, Chris. I have nothing against production cues, I know plenty of people who play with them, and appear quite happy.
I have gotten to the point in my game, that I actually (finally) have a bit of a clue as to what I like. I cannot go to a production maker and tell them....I want a 3/4" Micarta ferrule, and a Milk Dud tip, on a high ring count old growth shaft with a European taper...that is to be mated with a 50 yo Brazilian rosewood butt with 4 points w/4 veneers (with paper veneers sandwiched in between) with a SS 1/2 joint and a Hoppe ring and butt plate....oh yeah, and it has to be a wrapless full splice.
I also know, and have been lucky enough to work with, makers whose 'hit' I have come to enjoy greatly. Because I have had previous experience, I know that their cues play consistently across the board.
I have had McD's that played great and others that played like pure crap...same goes with Viking...and even a custom or two. I was not as attuned to my game then as I am now...but could still get a general idea.
The point here is this....doesn't matter what you play with...as long as it plays well for you. Not everyone can afford a custom cue...although there are still some regional makers that are a great bargain these days. I save my hard earned pennies and every year or two, I get another custom order going....because I like the freedom to get EXACTLY what I want.
I should also note here that I do not technically 'collect'...my cues...every single one, (and I don't have that many), get played and play great!
Lisa
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its ok Rat, just send all your materials and equipment my way b/f you jump out the window....i'll keep trying for you lol.
I am with you, this really breaks my heart and I certainly don't know if I will ever recover, I think I am going to take my girls and move up into the mountains at least I won't be cold!!!!!:wink:
To the post OP, where did you get you knowledge from, through building cues, through disassembling cues, or from other forms of research?
Thanks for your comments
I can't reply to each and everyone of you, so I'll condense it into one post - which will hopefully clarify things and put the thread back on track. I'll also keep it anonymous - personally directed posts lead to shitstorms rather than discussion of the topic. I haven't flamed a single person in this thread, but I can't say the same about a couple of people.
A number of people in this thread have been misrepresenting what I've said, others are arguing different topics etcetera. All sorts of logical fallacies as well as off-topic arguments.
1. I do not bash, nor hate custom cues. In fact, I like them very much. I own a few, and have owned many more in the past. I have no agenda against custom cues nor custom cue makers.
2. I never stated custom cues are INFERIOR. Only that they don't play better than a decent quality production cue. I never stated they play worse.
3. I never stated that a player should be able to run the same amount of balls using a ramin wood K-mart 3-piece cue with screw on tip VS. a Tim Scruggs.
...such a cue would fail the basic requirements for being decent or good. Which I stated, means consistent. There is a base level of quality to achieve consistency.
4. This thread isn't a criticism of people who buy custom cues or why they buy them. It challenges a claim, implied or otherwise, that the mere fact that a cue is custom means it plays better.
I'm arguing that custom made cues do not have any special quality about them that makes them play better than say, a good quality production cue. Each will hit balls straight and consistently.
You're not going to miss a shot because you hit that ball with a Schon, Joss, Viking or Meucci. Whereas, you would have made it if you used a custom made cue.
As in my opening post, the custom cue maker is not doing anything special in the construction or design of his shafts (or butt) to make his cue perform better than a production cue. That is, a production cue that isn't defective.
5. This thread isn't about quality control. That is irrelevant. However, if you want to talk about quality control - without question the customs have higher quality control on average. Despite that fact, there are plenty of customs that still don't roll straight or have other issues. And it goes according to a cue by cue basis.
Therefore, no matter what you get - you must inspect it and qualify it for it to be considered for optimal play. If you have to do that with customs (which you do), then there's no reason you can't do that for a production cue also. There are production cues that roll straight and are not defective.
6. There are some people that mention that only with a custom can you get custom balance, weight etcetera. That's a pretty good reason to go with a custom. However, this has nothing to do with how good or bad the cue plays. It still plays the same. Those factors are personal preference and are irrelevant to the topic. That's because those people are talking about how THEY play better with certain weight, balance characteristics because of familiarity and comfort with those preferences in balance and weight. Balance and weight does not equate to better/worse play for the cue because there are other players who are world beaters with the opposite balance or different weight. The cue is striking the ball the same way. There are people who like the balance, feel and weight of their production cues and they play great with them. Those cues are not inferior to the customs, nor superior.
7. Some have used a car analogy to compare the difference between custom cues and production cues. Perhaps in finish, detail of inlay, and other aesthetic qualities. But not in performance terms. That comparison (Yugo vs. Mercedes) is invalid completely.
The difference between a Schon/Joss/Meucci vs. some custom is not extreme - in fact, there's no difference. Other than personal preference in weight, balance, wrap or no wrap. Things that don't alter the consistency or performance of the CUE.
In other words, a pro won't miss a ball switching from his custom to a Schon because there is something inherently wrong or inferior with the Schon. He might miss because he is not used to the weight or balance, that's different. That's not the cue. That's an issue of familiarity with the weight/balance. If he was familiar with that weight or balance, he would be equally as good with the Schon.
8. No one has provided not a shred of evidence as to why custom cues allegedly play better, are allegedly more consistent, allegedly make you more balls etcetera over say, a quality, non-defective production cue.
No one shred of evidence. Not one single substantial argument. Nothing.
Just a lot of angry and upset people. That was NOT the intention of this thread. This thread was not flame-bait nor an attempt to troll. I was hoping someone would come along and make a scientifically or at least, a logically sound argument as to why the custom is superior in performance over a production.
A number of people in this thread have been misrepresenting what I've said, others are arguing different topics etcetera. All sorts of logical fallacies as well as off-topic arguments.
1. I do not bash, nor hate custom cues. In fact, I like them very much. I own a few, and have owned many more in the past. I have no agenda against custom cues nor custom cue makers.
2. I never stated custom cues are INFERIOR. Only that they don't play better than a decent quality production cue. I never stated they play worse.
3. I never stated that a player should be able to run the same amount of balls using a ramin wood K-mart 3-piece cue with screw on tip VS. a Tim Scruggs.
...such a cue would fail the basic requirements for being decent or good. Which I stated, means consistent. There is a base level of quality to achieve consistency.4. This thread isn't a criticism of people who buy custom cues or why they buy them. It challenges a claim, implied or otherwise, that the mere fact that a cue is custom means it plays better.
I'm arguing that custom made cues do not have any special quality about them that makes them play better than say, a good quality production cue. Each will hit balls straight and consistently.
You're not going to miss a shot because you hit that ball with a Schon, Joss, Viking or Meucci. Whereas, you would have made it if you used a custom made cue.
As in my opening post, the custom cue maker is not doing anything special in the construction or design of his shafts (or butt) to make his cue perform better than a production cue. That is, a production cue that isn't defective.
5. This thread isn't about quality control. That is irrelevant. However, if you want to talk about quality control - without question the customs have higher quality control on average. Despite that fact, there are plenty of customs that still don't roll straight or have other issues. And it goes according to a cue by cue basis.
Therefore, no matter what you get - you must inspect it and qualify it for it to be considered for optimal play. If you have to do that with customs (which you do), then there's no reason you can't do that for a production cue also. There are production cues that roll straight and are not defective.
6. There are some people that mention that only with a custom can you get custom balance, weight etcetera. That's a pretty good reason to go with a custom. However, this has nothing to do with how good or bad the cue plays. It still plays the same. Those factors are personal preference and are irrelevant to the topic. That's because those people are talking about how THEY play better with certain weight, balance characteristics because of familiarity and comfort with those preferences in balance and weight. Balance and weight does not equate to better/worse play for the cue because there are other players who are world beaters with the opposite balance or different weight. The cue is striking the ball the same way. There are people who like the balance, feel and weight of their production cues and they play great with them. Those cues are not inferior to the customs, nor superior.
7. Some have used a car analogy to compare the difference between custom cues and production cues. Perhaps in finish, detail of inlay, and other aesthetic qualities. But not in performance terms. That comparison (Yugo vs. Mercedes) is invalid completely.
The difference between a Schon/Joss/Meucci vs. some custom is not extreme - in fact, there's no difference. Other than personal preference in weight, balance, wrap or no wrap. Things that don't alter the consistency or performance of the CUE.
In other words, a pro won't miss a ball switching from his custom to a Schon because there is something inherently wrong or inferior with the Schon. He might miss because he is not used to the weight or balance, that's different. That's not the cue. That's an issue of familiarity with the weight/balance. If he was familiar with that weight or balance, he would be equally as good with the Schon.
8. No one has provided not a shred of evidence as to why custom cues allegedly play better, are allegedly more consistent, allegedly make you more balls etcetera over say, a quality, non-defective production cue.
No one shred of evidence. Not one single substantial argument. Nothing.
Just a lot of angry and upset people. That was NOT the intention of this thread. This thread was not flame-bait nor an attempt to troll. I was hoping someone would come along and make a scientifically or at least, a logically sound argument as to why the custom is superior in performance over a production.
Well...unless I missed it somewhere, you haven't exactly provided a 'shred of evidence' as to why they don't.
I'm think that robot machine that used to hit the shows comparing shaft deflection, if modified slightly, might be perfect for just such a comparison.
Lisa
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I don't have to, because I'm not the one making the claim that custom cues play better. It's up to those who support that position to prove it or at least provide some evidence.
Thanks, but this thread already had enough logical fallacies.
Well now, that doesn't seem hardly fair, does it? Every great debate has to have a Pro side and a Con.
Lisa
GoTulane
Shizzle-rific
Still haven't supported your position
No, your position is:
So I think I understand what Lisa is saying
So 8 pages, and still no EVIDENCE - so where is your logic?
Who drank the wrong Kool Aid now?
Michael
No, your position is:
So I think I understand what Lisa is saying
So 8 pages, and still no EVIDENCE - so where is your logic?
Who drank the wrong Kool Aid now?
Michael
Fair has nothing to do with it. It's like saying 'God exists'...then someone says 'prove it' ..and that person turns around and says 'no, you prove God doesn't exist'...
That line has been rejected as flawed centuries ago.
In this case, the Pro side says 'custom cue plays better'
The Con side says 'prove it'
The only way to do that would be to set up a test using one of those mechanical devices that swings a cue the same way each time. Perhaps this has already been done. It's been done for deflection tests, but I'm not aware if it has been done to compare the precision/accuracy of a custom or the speed/spin it generates vs. a production cue.
Now, I don't expect anyone to go out and buy or build such a contraption. However, if hypothetically the custom does perform better - then the reasons for this must be quantifiable and verifiable. It can't just be because the hands of the custom cue maker are blessed with powers unexplainable by science.
That brings up the question, what would or could, hypothetically, lead to the custom playing better? Well, we have to look at what a cue is. A cue is a number of materials. Those materials are assembled and/or treated a variety of different ways.
I suggested that those ways do not differ in any meaningful way as to lead to one playing better.
This wasn't the case a long, long time ago. This is evident by the evolution in the design of the cue.
Certain features of a cue, such as ferrule, taper, joints, construction methods have standardized (for the most part) throughout the decades into the design we know today as the modern pool playing cue.
The reason for that is because those features DID lead to better play.
However, today - the production cue has all of those design features and methods once only found in custom cues.
Then why is a custom better?
If a person said, well Bola, you just said it yourself - the custom cue makers INNOVATE new features that improves play. Sure. They DID. Do they now? Perhaps. But who? Who is making something new and unique that actually equates to better play? And what are those features? How do they work?
No one can come up with anything verifiable.
GoTulane
Shizzle-rific
Painting a picture of yourself?
WOW - check my last post - YOU are the one that started this thread, and therefore the debate is with you as the pro side.
Here is the topic from your own keyboard/soap box:
SO PROVE IT!!!!!!!!
Otherwise you are just blowing hot air, and we have enough of that around here.
Michael
WOW - check my last post - YOU are the one that started this thread, and therefore the debate is with you as the pro side.
Here is the topic from your own keyboard/soap box:
SO PROVE IT!!!!!!!!
Otherwise you are just blowing hot air, and we have enough of that around here.
Michael
There really should be no argument.
I have always taken it as a no-brainer that an entry level production cue is all that's needed to play great pool. I just had a full splice $100 Adam for 20 years that served me every bit as well as the Gina (stolen) it replaced. Pool players, within reason, can adapt. Many production cues are fine tools for shooting pool.
Custom cues are not about playing good pool. They are about pride of ownership. They are about quality, precision, and owning something special built by a respected craftsman. They are about having your imprint and specs on the tool of your choice, and having a look suitable to your own specific ideas and tastes.
And face it, there is often a big "gee whiz" factor. A custom cue is built for you - they are not made for the generic 5'10" 160 pound male person who is a league player.
Good? Of course!
Necessary? Of course not.
Play better? Maybe not. Cues don't make you play better. Learning, competing and practice does. But from experience, a bad cue can sure make you play worse. :smile: Feel better? Very likely
Chris
I have always taken it as a no-brainer that an entry level production cue is all that's needed to play great pool. I just had a full splice $100 Adam for 20 years that served me every bit as well as the Gina (stolen) it replaced. Pool players, within reason, can adapt. Many production cues are fine tools for shooting pool.
Custom cues are not about playing good pool. They are about pride of ownership. They are about quality, precision, and owning something special built by a respected craftsman. They are about having your imprint and specs on the tool of your choice, and having a look suitable to your own specific ideas and tastes.
And face it, there is often a big "gee whiz" factor. A custom cue is built for you - they are not made for the generic 5'10" 160 pound male person who is a league player.
Good? Of course!
Necessary? Of course not.
Play better? Maybe not. Cues don't make you play better. Learning, competing and practice does. But from experience, a bad cue can sure make you play worse. :smile: Feel better? Very likely
Chris
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Let me start out by saying that I appreciate and love many of the custom cues out there in the marketplace today. The time, creativity and expertise that goes into these pieces is many times beyond compare and if I win the lottery (!), there's going to be portion of that devoted to buying cues from several of the artists who's cues I admire.
On the subject of playability though, a "decent" production cue and a custom cue are as good (no better) than the person wielding them.
Give me a Southwest and give SVB or Mika an off the shelf Lucasi (or similar) and I still lose every single time - no question in my mind.
Give me a Southwest, give one of the two mentioned above a Lucasi and a blindfold and I like my chances all of a sudden ....
Now would I love to have a full on, $5,000 custom cue - absolutely - I'd love to have several! But it's not going to make me play better. Period.
On the subject of playability though, a "decent" production cue and a custom cue are as good (no better) than the person wielding them.
Give me a Southwest and give SVB or Mika an off the shelf Lucasi (or similar) and I still lose every single time - no question in my mind.
Give me a Southwest, give one of the two mentioned above a Lucasi and a blindfold and I like my chances all of a sudden ....
Now would I love to have a full on, $5,000 custom cue - absolutely - I'd love to have several! But it's not going to make me play better. Period.
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Obviously you didn't read this:
But seriously, is that all that you can resort to?
As for my harmful baggage comment in the beginning of the thread:
It is harmful to a person's game. There are people who think their cue makes their game.
So what happens if that cue is lost, destroyed or stolen? Does that player's game die or disappear with the cue? Where did it go? Did that person's skills reside inside the cue? Reminds me of some kind of tribal belief where spirits or powers are in pieces of wood or stone.
Superstition. Crazy.
These are the same people who blame cues they feel are inferior (vs. a cue they been wanting to get) for missing shots. That's weak. Laughable too.
Unless that cue they are using is actually defective or inconsistent, it's just pathetic excuse making.
That's a line of thinking that is restrictive. People holding themselves back. Often rotting at the same level for a long, long time.
I DID NOT SAY that all or even most custom cue owners are like that. Never said that. I own custom cues, I'm not like that. That comment was about those people who think their cue is their game. Rather than the cue is merely a tool of their game.
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DrOnePocket
Banned
I completely understand the basis of your entire argument and I have seen a decent player get beat by a guy with a mop in his hand. That being said....
You are incorrect in the statement above about technology and materials. There are most definitely some cue makers that use both better materials, better technology, and better construction methods in general. All of which can attribute to a better playing or even more consistent cue.
How can anyone other than a fool support an opinion that they can't or isn't back up with facts, and frankly that is all this thread is about "Opinions".
Except where the construction techniques used to build a custom cue verse a production cue are concerned. Your comparison and comment that there really is no differences between Joss, Schon, Meucci, and a custom is laughable and that is not an opinion it is a fact. This is not something that is opinion based, it can be scientifically proven through testing unlike how a cue hits.Please don't confuse the two, your doing pretty well, you have many buying into this thread and trying to defend a position that is indefensible, now that is what I find very very funny!!!!!
But just to make one thing clear, I have brought the spray out so go away before I use it..!!!
Michael he has proven his point to me, and I understand exactly where he is coming from 1 + 1 = does equal 2 even in this case!!!
The Guy is a:
The orly thing that surprises me is how many people are giving this guy the attention that he clearly wants!!!!!
JIMO