Custom Cue Mythology

Manwon,

It's unfortunate that your feelings got hurt and you had to default to throwing a temper tantrum.

Perhaps the questions posed in this thread are too much for you. They obviously have shaken your comfort zone.

There's not much I can say to reply to you since you posts are void of information or facts, and they just sling a lot of venom at me.


I never thought that saying a Schon/Joss/Viking/Meucci plays as well as a custom would cause people so much distress.


One word for you folks: RELAX
 
Tap tap tap

Michael he has proven his point to me, and I understand exactly where he is coming from 1 + 1 = does equal 2 even in this case!!!

The Guy is a:

View attachment 130140

The orly thing that surprises me is how many people are giving this guy the attention that he clearly wants!!!!!:)

JIMO

Craig,

I have to agree - he is just looking for attention - and can't bring any facts to the table to support his original statement from his first post.

Better watch out using that spray - might be flammable - and he is spewing a lot of hot air.

BTW - where can I get some of that spray?
Do you accept paypal?:thumbup:


Michael
 
Everybody that wants to get rid of their production cues and buy a custom send them to me.:grin-square:
Everybody that wants to get rid of their custom cues and buy a production cue send them to me. :grin-square: I play with a Lucasi I'm not picky.
This is the second best thread only bettered by the Great China VS US made pool cue war.
 
Manwon,

It's unfortunate that your feelings got hurt and you had to default to throwing a temper tantrum.

Perhaps the questions posed in this thread are too much for you. They obviously have shaken your comfort zone.

There's not much I can say to reply to you since you posts are void of information or facts, and they just sling a lot of venom at me.


I never thought that saying a Schon/Joss/Viking/Meucci plays as well as a custom would cause people so much distress.


One word for you folks: RELAX



This is what you should focus on more. Some very informed people have explained to you some great ins/outs of cue construction and how it can affect playability. As I said many pages ago you have much to learn padawan.

You have no idea what goes into a cue so your end of the debate is fraught with a lack of insight and knowledge.

If you did then you could tell me wether or not Low Deflection Shafts are properly named or not?

We are very relaxed here, were trying to learn you something.

The wheels on the bus go round and round,
Grey Ghost
 
Cease or else!

Manwon and I will send our champion after you....

The Greatest Troll Killer in History
MAD MARTIGAN!
 

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I can't reply to each and everyone of you, so I'll condense it into one post - which will hopefully clarify things and put the thread back on track. I'll also keep it anonymous - personally directed posts lead to shitstorms rather than discussion of the topic. I haven't flamed a single person in this thread, but I can't say the same about a couple of people.

A number of people in this thread have been misrepresenting what I've said, others are arguing different topics etcetera. All sorts of logical fallacies as well as off-topic arguments.


1. I do not bash, nor hate custom cues. In fact, I like them very much. I own a few, and have owned many more in the past. I have no agenda against custom cues nor custom cue makers.

2. I never stated custom cues are INFERIOR. Only that they don't play better than a decent quality production cue. I never stated they play worse.

3. I never stated that a player should be able to run the same amount of balls using a ramin wood K-mart 3-piece cue with screw on tip VS. a Tim Scruggs. :rolleyes: ...such a cue would fail the basic requirements for being decent or good. Which I stated, means consistent. There is a base level of quality to achieve consistency.

4. This thread isn't a criticism of people who buy custom cues or why they buy them. It challenges a claim, implied or otherwise, that the mere fact that a cue is custom means it plays better.

I'm arguing that custom made cues do not have any special quality about them that makes them play better than say, a good quality production cue. Each will hit balls straight and consistently.

You're not going to miss a shot because you hit that ball with a Schon, Joss, Viking or Meucci. Whereas, you would have made it if you used a custom made cue.

As in my opening post, the custom cue maker is not doing anything special in the construction or design of his shafts (or butt) to make his cue perform better than a production cue. That is, a production cue that isn't defective.

5. This thread isn't about quality control. That is irrelevant. However, if you want to talk about quality control - without question the customs have higher quality control on average. Despite that fact, there are plenty of customs that still don't roll straight or have other issues. And it goes according to a cue by cue basis.

Therefore, no matter what you get - you must inspect it and qualify it for it to be considered for optimal play. If you have to do that with customs (which you do), then there's no reason you can't do that for a production cue also. There are production cues that roll straight and are not defective.

6. There are some people that mention that only with a custom can you get custom balance, weight etcetera. That's a pretty good reason to go with a custom. However, this has nothing to do with how good or bad the cue plays. It still plays the same. Those factors are personal preference and are irrelevant to the topic. That's because those people are talking about how THEY play better with certain weight, balance characteristics because of familiarity and comfort with those preferences in balance and weight. Balance and weight does not equate to better/worse play for the cue because there are other players who are world beaters with the opposite balance or different weight. The cue is striking the ball the same way. There are people who like the balance, feel and weight of their production cues and they play great with them. Those cues are not inferior to the customs, nor superior.

7. Some have used a car analogy to compare the difference between custom cues and production cues. Perhaps in finish, detail of inlay, and other aesthetic qualities. But not in performance terms. That comparison (Yugo vs. Mercedes) is invalid completely.

The difference between a Schon/Joss/Meucci vs. some custom is not extreme - in fact, there's no difference. Other than personal preference in weight, balance, wrap or no wrap. Things that don't alter the consistency or performance of the CUE.

In other words, a pro won't miss a ball switching from his custom to a Schon because there is something inherently wrong or inferior with the Schon. He might miss because he is not used to the weight or balance, that's different. That's not the cue. That's an issue of familiarity with the weight/balance. If he was familiar with that weight or balance, he would be equally as good with the Schon.

8. No one has provided not a shred of evidence as to why custom cues allegedly play better, are allegedly more consistent, allegedly make you more balls etcetera over say, a quality, non-defective production cue.

No one shred of evidence. Not one single substantial argument. Nothing.

Just a lot of angry and upset people. That was NOT the intention of this thread. This thread was not flame-bait nor an attempt to troll. I was hoping someone would come along and make a scientifically or at least, a logically sound argument as to why the custom is superior in performance over a production.

Very well articulated. I happen to feel just as you do.

Some time ago, someone provided a link to a production cue mfg. that showed the process and equipment they used to make their cues. I can't recall if it was Viking or McDermott, but, never-the-less, after seeing that video link, there is a lot to be said for production cues being more consistently made than custom cues

I've said this many times. Give a player a custom cue, or a production cue, blindfold him and let him hit the CB a few times. Then change the tip and ask him if its the same cue or a different one.

Custom cues are collectibles, unique, and if they make players play better, they hold what I call the rabbits foot syndrome. If you think it helps, it does.
 
Would my Coors Light cue with a Meucci pin and a McDermott shaft with an insert to fit the Meucci pin considered Custom?

My Omen I would say "yes." But, think about the work in the Coors Light?
 
Guess I'm different...My 2 cents

I own a custom cue for this reason

I like a zero or straight line taper in the butt.
(its a diameter I like and EVERY shot wether I choke up or hold further back always feels the same).
None of the production cues build this and very few "custom"cuemakers will build it.
Because you remove wood from the back of the stick for this taper it brings the balance slightly more forward.
Which seems to change playability very little its strickly a comfort thing for me.
Except for open bridge topspin shots play smoother and it seems to help add more topspin.

I hope no one tries this...I've made way too much money..I love it way to much

Just had my 2nd one made made getting it tomorrow (pics coming).
I tweeked a few aspects from the protype.
Like Nascar a few adjustments are needed to make the car(cue) race at peak performance
 
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Manwon,

It's unfortunate that your feelings got hurt and you had to default to throwing a temper tantrum.

Perhaps the questions posed in this thread are too much for you. They obviously have shaken your comfort zone.

There's not much I can say to reply to you since you posts are void of information or facts, and they just sling a lot of venom at me.


I never thought that saying a Schon/Joss/Viking/Meucci plays as well as a custom would cause people so much distress.


One word for you folks: RELAX


It is not what you say, it isn't even what you believe, the fact is it is only your opinion and nothing else, those who try to defend opinion's with no factual basis other than personal feelings are lost souls. Now those who do this on an INTERNET Forum while being lost souls are also known as Trolls.

So please go back under your bridge, you have been exposed or as with most Trolls sniffed out!!!!!!:)


Oh and by the way, I also have a single word Rumpelstiltskin!!!!!!:wink:
 
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Manwon and I will send our champion after you....

The Greatest Troll Killer in History
MAD MARTIGAN!

His name is Rumpelstiltskin, now that we are armed with this knowledge he is harmless, I think we should save Mad Martigan for later!!!

Here are some of his other friends!!!!:thumbup:

troll01.jpg
 
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Very well articulated. I happen to feel just as you do.

Some time ago, someone provided a link to a production cue mfg. that showed the process and equipment they used to make their cues. I can't recall if it was Viking or McDermott, but, never-the-less, after seeing that video link, there is a lot to be said for production cues being more consistently made than custom cues

I've said this many times. Give a player a custom cue, or a production cue, blindfold him and let him hit the CB a few times. Then change the tip and ask him if its the same cue or a different one.

Custom cues are collectibles, unique, and if they make players play better, they hold what I call the rabbits foot syndrome. If you think it helps, it does.


Well said!
 
Excuse me for not reading the entire thread, but I just wanted to throw in my 'two sense';)......

First of all, as Lisa and Craig pointed out, the OP doesn't appear to be speaking from legitimate experience, just the fact that he hasn't found there to be any proof saying why the custom cue is better than a production cue. This single fact dictates that the OP's opinion is somewhat uneducated and prematurely spoken.

In custom cue making as in life, there is depth to anything including arts, crafts, and science. There is an advanced level of thinking when it comes to cars, fashion, food, and just about any subject you choose to converse about. Those who have taken their particular subject and studied with any significant amount of dedication come to conclusion after much deliberation and much experience and the time and energy it takes to acquire this skill and knowledge carries with it a certain level of appreciation. Those who don't understand things on this level can talk all they want about this and that, but it simply remains an uneducated and immature opinion compared to those who know the difference.

For the uneducated individual to demand an answer or proof to an immature subject is no different than a teenager arguing with their parents about curfew or why they need to spend ridiculous amounts of money on the next fashion statement.

The experienced person knows the difference in the finer aspects because they are well....... experienced. This is something that can't be faked because it takes a great deal of time and energy to acquire that certain 'taste' in life. People who have mastered their craft can often shed light on matters such as this to those who want to truly know and understand, but to those who simply form their conclusions based on inexperience and lack of understanding would be no different than an ostrich who buries his head in the sand with his ass stuck in the air.
 
Pushout, you got me. I was kind of foolishly thinking of someone who had been playing pool as long as I had... in which case you'd be buying a new cue every year and a half or so. But every four years... and getting rid of one before getting the next... That's fair enough. Sounds like you're playing with them and not hanging them side by side on the wall. Sorry!

I like threads like this. Some feel it's trolling, but really I'll take a 3 page controversial thread than another "what chalk to use?" thread any day. It's a strong statement to say something about 'drinking the custom cue kool-aid' but it's not necessarily untrue. Equipment mongers are everywhere, and some of them don't even know they're looking at a googan in the mirror.
 
Seems that the "custom cues play better" crowd is big on words, little on proof, substance or evidence. Heck, not even a single reasonable argument. Nothing.

Only childish flames and "because it is" statements.

Well done advancing your point fellas. Real champions of fact and reason. :rolleyes:


Aside from the fact that many of you are subscribing to complete logical failure by demanding that I provide proof of why YOUR unsubstantiated claims are false - you never take a moment to provide any evidence supporting your position. Nothing.

This is the same thing as a defendant having to prove their innocence. Doesn't work that way (or at least it shouldn't, but that's not a pool related subject) It's your side that makes the claim that custom cues perform better. The burden of proof rests on you to back up your claims. Not on me, who is a skeptic of such claims.

It's sad that this thread has gone so far without any substance by those who claim custom cues perform better than production cues.


Too much noise, not enough signal. You folks are better than that. Act like it.
 
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You started this thread, it's your thread. That leaves me to believe that it would be up to you to prove your point. JMO

I've had many cues. Some production, some custom. Some played great, some didn't. Right now I happen to be playing with a custom that plays great, for me.

As you see, I could care less.

Play with what you like and like what you play with
 
That's a good question. It probably has a lot to do with the same reason that at one time to get an example of proper playability, one had to get a handmade because the technology and machinery to achieve consistency via mass production means wasn't there at the time. This applies to cues, musical instruments, firearms etcetera. The simpler the construction, the easier it is for technology in mass production to achieve a consistent result. Here's an example. 50 years ago it was uncommon if not impossible to buy a mass produced rifle that could shoot 1/2" groupings at 100 yards. You had to get a custom. Today, you can buy an off the shelf rifle that will do that. One that is mass produced. Why? Because the machinery that machines parts is better today. More accurate.

How complex is a shaft in comparison to a violin or a firearm? No where near as complex. As a result, it's easier for engineers to use modern machinery to produce a consistent product of a high quality.

But it all depends on what you consider to be a baseline for adequate performance.

With musical instruments it's about the sound. This can be tested, and is tested with electronic equipment (check out the tests done to see if the sound of a Stradivarius is really that much better, the best ears in the music world couldn't tell the difference in a blind test) With firearms, it's the accuracy or reliability. Also can be put to the test, quite easily. With cues, it's subjective...

Unless of course we put a cue into a mechanical device that swings it the same way every time to see if the production cue hits the cue ball straight every time vs. a custom cue. Or if one imparts more spin than the other. People have done this test.

The custom doesn't hit straighter or put more spin.


Consider this angle, since you want to bring up what the Pro's use. Today, do the all Pro's use custom cues? They don't. Most don't.


Had some custom cue maker built a cue that truly performed better - would there not be a mad rush by the professional pool playing world to buy those cues? Think about it. These are people who make their money playing pool, whether it be gambling or tournaments. They want to gain ANY edge they can possibly get - and they will pay for that edge even if it's expensive. They would be at the forefront to seeking out enhanced performance cues.

The production guys would also want to get their hands on the custom cue with better performance. So that they could dissect it and reverse engineer it. To copy it and then offer it. The industry would be ALL over it wanting a piece of that pie. That performance gain would have to be due to something, and that cue maker would then have something they could actually take to a PATENT office. But do they? They don't. They have a maple shaft with a ferrule made of one of a dozen common materials used in cues. Nothing special.

But that isn't the case. None of that is happening.


I think it is telling that the amateur world is far more convinced about the superior performance of custom cues than is the professional pool playing world. Odd that the bangers would know that a cue plays better more so than most Pros.


In Mosconi's days it was different. If you wanted a decent cue, you had to get a custom. Today is different.

Bola,

The important factor that you seem to be totally ignoring in this discussion is the "feel" of the cue. A machine stroking the cue is not likely to report back on how it "felt" to hit the ball. Every pool player uses a cue. When they pick up a cue, they become a complex, interactive system for pool shooting. The feel of the hit provides feedback to the shooter, which influences *their* performance, which I'm sure we all agree is the most important part of that system. Lets look at some simple examples of things that make a huge difference in how a cue feels, but would likely provide absolutely no data to any scientific test or robot device:

balance: lets say I handed you a cue that had an *extreme* rear balance. You think that cue will perform as well for a given shooter as one that is balanced the way they like? Humans are pretty sensitive instruments...we can detect even small variations in balance. This makes a very big difference in the delivery of the stroke, the feel of the hit, and perhaps most importantly the confidence that cue inspires in the hands.

wrap or wrapless: This makes a big difference to me. Lets say I hand you a cue with my new teflon grip. Slick as hell and falls out of your hands when you try to hold it. How well would you play with that? There's the extreme example again, but refer to the "humans are sensitive" idea.

We could list other things but I think you get the idea. Here is a *fact* for you: when I bought my 2nd cue (the first was a $96 Brunswick), I didn't know anything about cues or custom makers. I tried out a million production cues: Viking, Pechauer, McDermott, etc. I didn't really care for the hit of any of them. Then I hit with a couple of custom cues and immediately felt a clear difference. Remember, I was a D player and didn't know anything at the time...I had no preconceived notions about cues. Certainly had never heard of AZB. The customs I tried were plain jane cues, certainly not as "fancy" as some of the production cues I tried. No real placebo effect there. However, there was a certain quality, perhaps solidness or something, that I immediately recognized and preferred. Explain that please.

Are there decent production cues? Of course. The simple *fact* is that my experience says that on average a decent custom cue hits better than the average production cue. The net result of putting a cue in *my* hands that feels better to *me* is an improvement in overall performance, most noticeably with respect to speed control, but also many other aspects not worth going into.

KMRUNOUT
 
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You started this thread, it's your thread. That leaves me to believe that it would be up to you to prove your point. JMO

No, my opening of this thread is not the a making of a claim - instead, it is a response to a popular claim that exists in the pool world that custom cues have superior performance over quality production cues.

I've had many cues. Some production, some custom. Some played great, some didn't. Right now I happen to be playing with a custom that plays great, for me.

As you see, I could care less.

Play with what you like and like what you play with

On that, we agree. :smile:
 
I think bolo's got a fair point, but a lot of custom cue buyers will freely admit they are buying it for looks and because it's customized to their specs.

If somehow a guy can tell the difference between 21 and 21.5, and that extra half ounce makes his speed control perfect (or whatever) then you can't fault him for paying for a custom 21.5 oz cue.

If it were strictly about playability then you'd see a lot of 21.5 oz, 12.3 mm, pro taper, 61" plain pine sticks. So I think the poster's problem isn't so much with people who make or buy these sticks... I think the problem is with them trying to BS themselves and the rest of the world as to their real reason for buying it.

And, not to single anyone out, but I think this post helped bolo's point by accident:



You purchased 8-10 custom cues, that sounds like a collector to me. Hell, collector is the wrong word, maybe 'addict' :) How fast do you go through them? If you're all about the playability, why didn't you find one that played perfect and stick with it for 20 years? Did the first 7 customs not hit balls good enough, or fall apart, so you just had to go buy that 8th?! Surely it can't help your consistency to keep switching every few years.

I think a lot of people buy customs because they like to shop around for, pick out, customize and buy things. No shame in that, just be honest about it.

Well played sir. Great post.
 
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