cut shot philosophy

[CreeDo]

I used to use a touch of outside without any reason (not to reduce collision induced throw, just as a bad habit). Now I make myself just use center when possible, but I still occasionally catch myself trying to cinch a ball with a bit of low outside.

Since then I've read a possible scientific reason why both the low and the outside might be worth doing... but I can't go back to it. If you shoot a ball into the heart of the pocket, and don't baby it in, it's highly unlikely collision induced throw can throw it off line enough to make the shot bobble. And you take away any fears of accidentally overspinning it, or overcompensating for spin.

So - to just cinch the ball it's center.

Of course, that style works best in an 8 ball runout when I get lousy on the 8 and the opponent has all their balls left. In 9b, or if the 8b rack has few balls left, I'm playing shape in case I miss. I like to try to park the CB in the middle of the head rail or maybe send it behind another ball.

 

[Island Drive]

You forgot the most important one in your list, highrolling center.............it's what whitey always returns too.

 

[abie10]

i learned from max eberle, indirectly of course, that you should play position on all shots, even the last...so how I would shoot the shot would depend on where I wanted to put the cue ball.

 

[The Renfro]

Dug this up from the past.... I think everyone not using the low with a touch of outside answer can get in line for the 6 per the 2nd to last post........

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=219070&highlight=hold+cueball&page=5

 

[Tokyo-dave]

I find that I'm more accurate, I minimize the chances of a skid, and I'm not fighting the CBs natural tendancy to roll when I use follow with just a sprinkle of outside.

dave

 

[quadrary]

The way i see it, it depends on if it is a rail shot and if it is a thin cut or a slight angle if the object ball is on the rail and the cut is very thin i am going to use inside bottom rail first it all depends on the position of both balls to give yourself the largest margin of error.

 

[Ratta]

Hm,

how is someone able to answer *this* question seriously? I prefer to hit the cueball where it s needed to get into my wanted position, hm?
You have to be able to make each ball by hitting the CB with different types of english.

 

[quadrary]

Hm,

how is someone able to answer *this* question seriously? I prefer to hit the cueball where it s needed to get into my wanted position, hm?
You have to be able to make each ball by hitting the CB with different types of english.

very true everything you said but the op was asking about a last ball scenario as in the 8 in 8ball or 9 in 9 ball and i think he wanted to know the best way to shoot it but it still depends on the position of both the cue ball and object ball. i will use whatever gives me the largest margin for error or if in an easy position where i can go with any kind of spin then i try to send the cue ball to the worst place for my opponent just in case.

 

[thrash attack]

I think the best way to think about this question is to imagine a shot for every English with the same level of difficulty and choose which shot you would prefer to be left with. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Ratta]

very true everything you said but the op was asking about a last ball scenario as in the 8 in 8ball or 9 in 9 ball and i think he wanted to know the best way to shoot it but it still depends on the position of both the cue ball and object ball. i will use whatever gives me the largest margin for error or if in an easy position where i can go with any kind of spin then i try to send the cue ball to the worst place for my opponent just in case.

Ok,

then it s still about: angle, length/distance, brandnew cloth, old cloth- how is the humidity- clean or bad balls.

there are just too many things that have influence here.

lg
Ingo

 

[JB Cases]

Yeah it depends on the actual shot. But mostly if I wanted to cinch it then I would use a slight draw and pocket speed. Or I might use a little outside.

 

[scottjen26]

As posted earlier, I've had this question before several times, typically whenever I come into some new information that has made me wonder if I was doing it "right". The way I'm wired, if I have any doubt about whether I'm doing something the "right" way it tends to eat at me and can cause self doubt etc.

I get that most shots require a certain type of hit for position. But when trying to just absolutely cinch a ball (say next ball is in a pocket), or making the last ball as accurately as possible, you have options on how to hit the ball. So the question becomes do you use english or not? Do you use draw, follow, or center? And what speed?

I think everyone has their opinions, either based on info they've learned or experience. You see a lot of pros hit the 9 ball using low inside and some speed, but I was never sure if that was to "cinch" the ball and prevent skid, CIT, etc., or more to draw the ball into the corner and out to avoid any possible scratch. When you have a normal cut down the long rail (say 15 - 20 degrees), you may want to hit the ball slightly differently, maybe just a nice rolling ball with a touch of outside to send the cue ball straight across the table. With a more severe cut, or more distance, you may want to use just center (rolling ball) to eliminate any variables and make the most accurate hit possible.


Those are questions I've had, and I think what the OP was getting at. I get that the most common choices seem to be a natural rolling ball with some speed, to minimize CIT, or low with some outside with some speed as well. My question is, when using the low outside approach, how much outside do you use? Same as when pros (like Sigel) have talked about always using a bit of outside on cut shots, how much? I would think that "just a bit" could be like 1/8 - 1/4 tip, and maybe squirt etc. doesn't come into play with that little english. But from my experience, and because of the way I learned, it's easy to get that tip out there 1/2 tip or more, and now you miss a shot because you used english to "cinch" a ball but didn't compensate for english. Same with the draw, it's possible to intend to do one thing but end up easing up on your stroke a bit, and if that nice speed draw turns into stun at the moment of contact you are setting yourself up for some increased CIT.

I play pretty well but I still can make these kinds of mistakes occasionally, when I meant to hit a shot a certain way but forgot to think about the variables and adjust. So does anyone who advocates the low outside method comment on any adjustments they do or don't make? Or is the amount of english used so slight that none are necessary?

Scott

 

[Island Drive]

As posted earlier, I've had this question before several times, typically whenever I come into some new information that has made me wonder if I was doing it "right". The way I'm wired, if I have any doubt about whether I'm doing something the "right" way it tends to eat at me and can cause self doubt etc.

I get that most shots require a certain type of hit for position. But when trying to just absolutely cinch a ball (say next ball is in a pocket), or making the last ball as accurately as possible, you have options on how to hit the ball. So the question becomes do you use english or not? Do you use draw, follow, or center? And what speed?

I think everyone has their opinions, either based on info they've learned or experience. You see a lot of pros hit the 9 ball using low inside and some speed, but I was never sure if that was to "cinch" the ball and prevent skid, CIT, etc., or more to draw the ball into the corner and out to avoid any possible scratch. When you have a normal cut down the long rail (say 15 - 20 degrees), you may want to hit the ball slightly differently, maybe just a nice rolling ball with a touch of outside to send the cue ball straight across the table. With a more severe cut, or more distance, you may want to use just center (rolling ball) to eliminate any variables and make the most accurate hit possible.


Those are questions I've had, and I think what the OP was getting at. I get that the most common choices seem to be a natural rolling ball with some speed, to minimize CIT, or low with some outside with some speed as well. My question is, when using the low outside approach, how much outside do you use? Same as when pros (like Sigel) have talked about always using a bit of outside on cut shots, how much? I would think that "just a bit" could be like 1/8 - 1/4 tip, and maybe squirt etc. doesn't come into play with that little english. But from my experience, and because of the way I learned, it's easy to get that tip out there 1/2 tip or more, and now you miss a shot because you used english to "cinch" a ball but didn't compensate for english. Same with the draw, it's possible to intend to do one thing but end up easing up on your stroke a bit, and if that nice speed draw turns into stun at the moment of contact you are setting yourself up for some increased CIT.

I play pretty well but I still can make these kinds of mistakes occasionally, when I meant to hit a shot a certain way but forgot to think about the variables and adjust. So does anyone who advocates the low outside method comment on any adjustments they do or don't make? Or is the amount of english used so slight that none are necessary?

Scott

The old phrase, keep it simple applies profoundly to our sport and to ALL sports. Anytime one introduces unnatural movements to the cue ball many other factors come into play. Great players of the game strive to gain speed control of the table and in doing so are most always on the proper side of the object ball. Buddy Hall is a perfect example of ''simplification'' of basic swing/cueing of whitey and cue ball movement. The more one goes off center, and the more a player moves from 12 o'clock cueing of whitey towards center, other aspects of collisions start to come into play. Great players make it look simple at times because they are utilizing the natural rolling aspects of cue ball off off object ball to the next ball, with nothing more than high rolling english. It's no different than the expression, ''if you have shape why play shape''? and in turn, if you don't need ANY spin, why spin whitey?

 

[BasementDweller]

I think the whole reason people that play nine ball tend to use outside english on the money ball is because probably over 70 percent of the time you are shooting the 9 ball into one of the bottom corner pockets, and usually you're cue ball is somewhere near the middle of the table. When you see this shot you immediately think - fire the 9 in and send the cue ball in and out of the corner and direct it to land in between the side and corner pocket. The easiest way to do this is with some outside english (with a little low for good measure).

Everybody shoots that shot that way! You do this often enough and it just becomes 2nd nature to use a tip of outside english on the 9. Next thing you know, you are using outside on all your nine ball shots.

 

[supergreenman]

The way I play the last ball is to play position for where I want the cue ball to stop. The last ball is treated no different than any other ball.

But to answer the question a little better is, if cutting the ball to the left I use HR, CR or LR, cutting the ball to the to the right I use HL, CL or LL.

I try to stay away from center ball due to whats called "cling" which will cause unwanted throw on the object ball. I turn the object ball into the pocket.

John

Bingo....................................

 

[Foolio]

I've watched a lot of pool videos. I've noticed that almost all pros use low outside when shooting at particular angle(s) at the money ball. When the ball is at the foot at the table and they are cutting it in they always spin the cue ball two rails. If the pros are doing this, then it is for an important reason, which I don't know.

Even Buddy Hall does this, and you can see the angle that I am talking about here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RUWuTIxXzY4#t=163s

 

[Mitchxout]

Buddy Hall is a perfect example of ''simplification'' of basic swing/cueing of whitey and cue ball movement. The more one goes off center, and the more a player moves from 12 o'clock cueing of whitey towards center, other aspects of collisions start to come into play. Great players make it look simple at times because they are utilizing the natural rolling aspects of cue ball off off object ball to the next ball, with nothing more than high rolling english. It's no different than the expression, ''if you have shape why play shape''? and in turn, if you don't need ANY spin, why spin whitey?

Your point is well taken but you're incorrect about Buddy Hall and great players in general.

First of all, Buddy uses some amount of side english on nearly every shot. He calls it "helping" or "aiming" english, whether it's for shape or simply cinching a ball.

Secondly, pros typically don't just stay on the right side of the ball, they want to get perfect everytime. Watch Varner, Reyes, Earl, Sigel, Mika, Shane, etc, etc, they almost always use english. Whether they use alot of spin or barely move away from center varies but it's always there.

 

[Island Drive]

Your point is well taken but you're incorrect about Buddy Hall and great players in general.

First of all, Buddy uses some amount of side english on nearly every shot. He calls it "helping" or "aiming" english, whether it's for shape or simply cinching a ball.

Secondly, pros typically don't just stay on the right side of the ball, they want to get perfect everytime. Watch Varner, Reyes, Earl, Sigel, Mika, Shane, etc, etc, they almost always use english. Whether they use alot of spin or barely move away from center varies but it's always there.

Getting on the right side of the ball is how one works on getting perfect and in doing so figures out table speed. When a spinning cue ball strikes a rail, speed and shape is Way more difficult to control than a natural rolling ball.

So your saying, if a pro can cut a ball and come across table only using speed to play shape, those players would rather use some side spin than not, if so that's their choice.
All I'm saying is your make, or shape percentage has to be greater when your only applying ball speed with natural rotation of whitey. Danny Diliberto was a master at rollin' whitey.

 

[scottjen26]

It's this concept of "helping" or "aiming" english that I've heard about for 20+ years that always kept me wondering...

I used to use a ton of english - I guess coming from bowling and tennis, where I had command over massive amounts of spin in both, I was fascinated early on. Then I learned 3 cushion, and seems like you are almost always using running english at a minimum on everything, and often using combinations of speed and spin to make the point easier, achieve position, or miss a kiss. I was decent player, but also played a lot, and never did break into that next level of shortstops etc. where I could consistently vie with the top players. I could beat one, or two, in a tournament, but day in and day out they just had that little something extra.

Fast forward 10 years with 7 years off, and I find myself retooling my game. Trying to think a bit more about things as I get older, instead of just getting close and pounding and spinning the ball around the table. Especially playing on tighter equipment now instead of those bucket pocket GC's I grew up on.

Right now my philosophy is to use center axis as much as possible. There are MANY shots I now hit comfortably with center or a rolling ball that I would have always used some outside on before. Took a while to get comfortable with the change, but overall I feel more consistent because of it, less variable to contend with. I just aim, put a good stroke on the ball, and it goes in. I can still spin the crap out of the ball, and adjust as well as anyone, but I try to minimize that in order to improve my overall ball pocketing and runout percentages.

But... I still wonder, am I making certain shots tougher by not using some outside english? For instance, ball near the rail, 25 - 30 degree cut about 3 - 4 feet away. Right now, I like just putting a good roll on the ball and cutting it up the rail. But if I have to hit it slow or stun it across table or draw it back for position, then I find I like a little outside english to offset the cling or CIT, easier than making micro aiming adjustments. As long as I use a "little" english, and don't start leaking over to my old position, minimal if any adjustment is necessary for squirt or curve.

Is that what others find as well, that the "helping" english being referred to is so slight, maybe 1/4 tip, that no aiming adjustments are necessary? Because even with a LD shaft, if I use 1/2 tip (so the outside of my tip is at the center of the ball) at speed, and for sure 1 tip, I certainly will get some deflection, and if I shoot slowly I can get a bit of curve when using draw or if not struck properly.

Just looking for some answers and justifications from others, great discussion.
Scott

 

[Island Drive]

It's this concept of "helping" or "aiming" english that I've heard about for 20+ years that always kept me wondering...

I used to use a ton of english - I guess coming from bowling and tennis, where I had command over massive amounts of spin in both, I was fascinated early on. Then I learned 3 cushion, and seems like you are almost always using running english at a minimum on everything, and often using combinations of speed and spin to make the point easier, achieve position, or miss a kiss. I was decent player, but also played a lot, and never did break into that next level of shortstops etc. where I could consistently vie with the top players. I could beat one, or two, in a tournament, but day in and day out they just had that little something extra.

Fast forward 10 years with 7 years off, and I find myself retooling my game. Trying to think a bit more about things as I get older, instead of just getting close and pounding and spinning the ball around the table. Especially playing on tighter equipment now instead of those bucket pocket GC's I grew up on.

Right now my philosophy is to use center axis as much as possible. There are MANY shots I now hit comfortably with center or a rolling ball that I would have always used some outside on before. Took a while to get comfortable with the change, but overall I feel more consistent because of it, less variable to contend with. I just aim, put a good stroke on the ball, and it goes in. I can still spin the crap out of the ball, and adjust as well as anyone, but I try to minimize that in order to improve my overall ball pocketing and runout percentages.

But... I still wonder, am I making certain shots tougher by not using some outside english? For instance, ball near the rail, 25 - 30 degree cut about 3 - 4 feet away. Right now, I like just putting a good roll on the ball and cutting it up the rail. But if I have to hit it slow or stun it across table or draw it back for position, then I find I like a little outside english to offset the cling or CIT, easier than making micro aiming adjustments. As long as I use a "little" english, and don't start leaking over to my old position, minimal if any adjustment is necessary for squirt or curve.

Is that what others find as well, that the "helping" english being referred to is so slight, maybe 1/4 tip, that no aiming adjustments are necessary? Because even with a LD shaft, if I use 1/2 tip (so the outside of my tip is at the center of the ball) at speed, and for sure 1 tip, I certainly will get some deflection, and if I shoot slowly I can get a bit of curve when using draw or if not struck properly.

Just looking for some answers and justifications from others, great discussion.
Scott

What's interesting about using a little 'spin' is the chances of cling/slide/skoot with outside english diminish if the cue ball is hit with good pocketing speed, because forward ball speed is one type of forward momentum, a spinning cue ball adds even more forward obj. ball speed, but I've always been a firm believer, if its not needed, why do it, this game is difficult enough.