Dave Matlock

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
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We cu
When I was there late 90s they were still around a little but you had to go out of your way to find them. David was the house pro at McChesney's in Denver for a while that's when I was around him the most. There were some tables around with the big CB so I saw him play a little bit with the big rock but not as much as I would have liked.



The thing about bar tables is that there were so many different cueballs for a while. The mud ball (heavier and/or magnetic) The big ball - of which there were several sizes and weights, the smaller ball which was awful to play with. At some point in the 90s it became the fashion to hold bar table events with red dot cueballs and just open the tables. I hated that at first because I was good with all the oddities of the cueballs and most players were not. This was done to get better players (i.e. big table players) to participate.

I have competed in probably 20 bar table tournaments for every 9' table tournament I've played in. Mostly because that's where all the tournaments were held when I was playing a lot of tournaments. I've won on both sizes and for the big table if I just get closer to my work and stay down on the shots with a straight stroke I do ok. Bar table I can freewheel a lot more but that gets me in trouble too.

We could start a separate thread just on the old bar box cue balls. There was the oversized ball but I swear one I played with a couple times looked like an ostrich egg on the table. It was white and had to be at least 2.375" diameter, maybe bigger! Then some of those weighted or magnetic cue balls had the metal all the way to one side. I hit on one of those in a bar that I spent an hour trying to make it cut a complete circle without hitting anything. I came close a few times!

I wasn't aware of breaking out the red circles and opening up the barboxes when I first came back to pool. I arrived at a strange place and worked on table speed and cue ball control for an hour, then they opened the tables and swapped cue balls! I knew I wasn't going far!

Hu
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
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In the book Precision Pool, it states:
"Eight-ball wizard Dave Matlock is known for playing clever patterns that keep him at the table."

What kind of things does he do that other players don't? Is this worth investigating?


To get this thread back to Dave and bar box monsters, in the old day the bar box game was built around follow, the big table game, much more about draw. If a person could draw a cue ball two to four feet with control on a bar table that was all that was needed, follow would take care of most shots anyway.

I know it is/was a cliche but sayings become a cliche for a reason. The common saying back in the day of the mud ball was "draw for show, follow for dough!" Guys like Dave would put on a clinic showing that to be true.

Hu
 

ibuycues

I Love Box Cues
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Just go to Shooter's in Olathe,Ks. and get ya a dose. He works there and is in good playing shape. He'll play cheap,high or just do a lesson. Great guy with a wealth of knowledge.
Thanks. This frames the matter a little better. The difference between Dave and the best technical pattern players, then, was his well-judged conservatism, that was built on a foundation of years of insight and experience. That said, however, his risk averse playing style, that incorporated some of the subtler realities of bar table play, was absolutely clever.
Very well stated.
WP
 

ibuycues

I Love Box Cues
Silver Member
Just go to Shooter's in Olathe,Ks. and get ya a dose. He works there and is in good playing shape. He'll play cheap,high or just do a lesson. Great guy with a wealth of knowledge.
Good comments. And he still can bring an A-game, occasionally beating guys like Bergman, Woodward, Compton, Joey Gray and others In Shooters Olathe tournaments. Not always, but he remains deadly.
Supremely pleasant, a genuine contributor to our genre.

Will Prout
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
In the book Precision Pool, it states:
"Eight-ball wizard Dave Matlock is known for playing clever patterns that keep him at the table."

What kind of things does he do that other players don't? Is this worth investigating?
Take a bow, Pin, for a good thread that brought many interesting responses and allowed us to delight in the very special skills of one of the greatest barbox players the sport has ever known.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
if you shoot better than your opponent you will win .

if you shoot about equal the smarter player will win.

8 ball requires more smarts than 9 ball and that should be obvious.
Agreed, sort of .... I agree 100% with respect to the small tables.

On the big tables, however, most of the eight ball runouts are very routine. Irving Crane, when asked about pro eight ball tournaments on the big tables, said that the game of eight ball did not present a stiff enough test for the world's greatest players. Of course, that's just one man's opinion, but not just ANY man. I'd argue that on big tables, nine ball, on average, requires more smarts than eight ball, as the position play is much trickier and the defense/kicking/jumping skills are tested so often.

That said, I like your post. Smarts, or more specifically making high quality decisions at the table will, very often, be the difference between players of comparable ability.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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Agreed, sort of .... I agree 100% with respect to the small tables.

On the big tables, however, most of the eight ball runouts are very routine. Irving Crane, when asked about pro eight ball tournaments on the big tables, said that the game of eight ball did not present a stiff enough test for the world's greatest players. Of course, that's just one man's opinion, but not just ANY man. I'd argue that on big tables, nine ball, on average, requires more smarts than eight ball, as the position play is much trickier and the defense/kicking/jumping skills are tested so often.

That said, I like your post. Smarts, or more specifically making high quality decisions at the table will, very often, be the difference between players of comparable ability.
Well stated Stu. In 9-Ball you must play position on one specific ball and in Eight Ball you may have several choices, some of them what we used to consider "bail out shots," to get out of a jam.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
While Dave's technical chops are truly awesome what really sets him apart, imo, is his ABSOLUTE hatred of losing. I know all champions possess this instinct and Dave takes it to another level. You watch him play and he gets what a friend of mine calls ' Dracula vision', just this coal-black stare of someone who's there to do serious business. Will's statements about his method are spot-on in that he doesn't need to worry about getting perfect 'cause his shotmaking is so brutal. Combine that with world-class kicking knowledge it can be very tough to fade. He WILL run 6,7,8 packs(or more) when he gets it going.
 

ibuycues

I Love Box Cues
Silver Member
While Dave's technical chops are truly awesome what really sets him apart, imo, is his ABSOLUTE hatred of losing. I know all champions possess this instinct and Dave takes it to another level. You watch him play and he gets what a friend of mine calls ' Dracula vision', just this coal-black stare of someone who's there to do serious business. Will's statements about his method are spot-on in that he doesn't need to worry about getting perfect 'cause his shotmaking is so brutal. Combine that with world-class kicking knowledge it can be very tough to fade. He WILL run 6,7,8 packs(or more) when he gets it going.
One time Efren was at Shooters Olathe for a big tournament. Loads of top players entered. Just under 200 players in the 9-ball event, less entered in the 1-pocket. With such a large entry in 9-ball there was quite a wait between matches, particularly on the winners’ side. Several players, wanting to stay active, would play billiards on table #1.

Efren, as many know, has quite a background playing billiards when he was young, even entering several tournaments with world class billiard players. Well, Dave grew up playing billiards also when he was young, absolutely loved the game. And he got very, very good, known to string some very sporty runs at the table. (Still does).

Wouldn’t you know it, they struck up a friendly game of billiards on table #1 between matches. Not for big stakes, for the fun of the game. Don’t worry, although it was a friendly, talk-a-lot game, both quickly dialed into serious concentration. Both are known far and wide for their killer instincts and concentration, as Garczar said earlier.
Well, after several hours they were dead even, and Efren made a point to come over to shake Dave’s hand. Then he said to Dave that Dave was the best player that played BOTH games that he had ever played in all his years. I watched it, it was something else. Per Garczar’s comments earlier, you can imagine how this background helped Dave’s kicking prowess on a pool table. (And Efren)! By the way, this could be another skill in Dave’s arsenal that has allowed him to approach table layouts just a bit different from the norm.

Will Prout
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
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Silver Member
One time Efren was at Shooters Olathe for a big tournament. Loads of top players entered. Just under 200 players in the 9-ball event, less entered in the 1-pocket. With such a large entry in 9-ball there was quite a wait between matches, particularly on the winners’ side. Several players, wanting to stay active, would play billiards on table #1.

Efren, as many know, has quite a background playing billiards when he was young, even entering several tournaments with world class billiard players. Well, Dave grew up playing billiards also when he was young, absolutely loved the game. And he got very, very good, known to string some very sporty runs at the table. (Still does).

Wouldn’t you know it, they struck up a friendly game of billiards on table #1 between matches. Not for big stakes, for the fun of the game. Don’t worry, although it was a friendly, talk-a-lot game, both quickly dialed into serious concentration. Both are known far and wide for their killer instincts and concentration, as Garczar said earlier.
Well, after several hours they were dead even, and Efren made a point to come over to shake Dave’s hand. Then he said to Dave that Dave was the best player that played BOTH games that he had ever played in all his years. I watched it, it was something else. Per Garczar’s comments earlier, you can imagine how this background helped Dave’s kicking prowess on a pool table. (And Efren)! By the way, this could be another skill in Dave’s arsenal that has allowed him to approach table layouts just a bit different from the norm.

Will Prout


Will,

I can see I neglected my education, I have never hit a ball on a table without pockets.

Just a question, does Dave play chess? One thing I think people fail to consider is Efren's love of chess. Playing chess helps a person see patterns on a pool table very fast. In the time most players sort through one pattern a chess player may have sorted through three or four.

Hu
 
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JB Cases

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In the book Precision Pool, it states:
"Eight-ball wizard Dave Matlock is known for playing clever patterns that keep him at the table."

What kind of things does he do that other players don't? Is this worth investigating?
Dave knows every kicking and banking system and uses them with amazing precision. He put on an 8 ball exhibition that was truly beyond for three days when we hired him to do exhibitions and told him to try and run out instead of playing safe.

I hope I find the tape we made of one of them but I doubt I have it anymore.
 

ibuycues

I Love Box Cues
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Will,

I can see I neglected my education, I have never hit a ball on a table without pockets.

Just a question, does Dave play chess? One thing I think people fail to consider is Efren's love of chess. Playing chess helps a person see patterns on a pool table very fast. In the time most players sort through one pattern a chess player may have sorted through three or four.

Hu
Hu,
You make a very good point about how Efren has always loved chess, and the obvious transferable skills to pool. I don’t know if Dave plays chess, I will ask him next time I see him. I suspect that if he does play, he would be very good.

Chess grandmasters often speak of pattern recognition, and the ability to see pawn placement, with the attendant capability to immediately understand the table layouts. As when a grand master will play 20 boards at the same time, walking from one table to another and immediately moving a piece. In the world of chess , pattern recognition plays a serious part in the ability to improve one’s skill.

I have often thought that most elite NFL quarterbacks have the ability to come up to the line, scan the defense and possibly call an audible change in play. The QB doesn’t tell himself the defensive alignment by looking at one player, then another. With their visioning capability, they can immediately sense the layout and make the appropriate call.

Good point, Hu, thanks.

Will Prout
 

ibuycues

I Love Box Cues
Silver Member
Dave knows every kicking and banking system and uses them with amazing precision. He put on an 8 ball exhibition that was truly beyond for three days when we hired him to do exhibitions and told him to try and run out instead of playing safe.

I hope I find the tape we made of one of them but I doubt I have it anymore.
John,
Thanks for an excellent point. Dave can amaze with his deep knowledge and awareness of many different diamond and other systems. And he loves to engage in discussions about them. He will grab a cue, a couple balls and start talking. He is brilliant, and explains his concepts easily and comprehensively.

He has given many, many exhibitions in Kansas, Nebraska, Missouri, Iowa, Oklahoma, etc, and is comfortable doing so. He is quiet by nature, but when the subject is one he enjoys he can shift to teacher mode or conversation mode very quickly and effectively.

One time, I found myself in Lincoln, NE with one of my daughters for a volleyball tournament at U of NE. While in town, I scooted over to Mueller’s to see their products, tables, etc. When I walked in the front door, there was Dave giving a large crowd a wonderful exhibition. When things settled down, I spoke with him and he said he had been contracted to give 3 days worth of exhibition. Just another insight to Dave’s skill sets.

Will Prout
 
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dardusm

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've had the privilege to watch and play Dave for the last 3 decades (just played him a tournament on Saturday). I believe the Midwest 9 ball changed to alternate breaks because of Dave. He won several events in a row. His intensity is 2nd to none. His game is smooth and powerful. What I think separated Dave over other top players on the bar box is what he could do with trouble balls. His 3 cushion knowledge along with that powerful stroke made watching him deal with clusters and other issues a treat. I would try to figure out what was going to do with a problem and he wouldn't disappoint. I was hoping to learn something but I realized that I needed his stroke on some of those shots!
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
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We cu


We could start a separate thread just on the old bar box cue balls. There was the oversized ball but I swear one I played with a couple times looked like an ostrich egg on the table. It was white and had to be at least 2.375" diameter, maybe bigger! Then some of those weighted or magnetic cue balls had the metal all the way to one side. I hit on one of those in a bar that I spent an hour trying to make it cut a complete circle without hitting anything. I came close a few times!

I wasn't aware of breaking out the red circles and opening up the barboxes when I first came back to pool. I arrived at a strange place and worked on table speed and cue ball control for an hour, then they opened the tables and swapped cue balls! I knew I wasn't going far!

Hu
Balls, balls, balls... It's like driving. You know the controls, you mind the margins and terrain.
Mostly.
 

HomeBrewer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One time Efren was at Shooters Olathe for a big tournament. Loads of top players entered. Just under 200 players in the 9-ball event, less entered in the 1-pocket. With such a large entry in 9-ball there was quite a wait between matches, particularly on the winners’ side. Several players, wanting to stay active, would play billiards on table #1.

Efren, as many know, has quite a background playing billiards when he was young, even entering several tournaments with world class billiard players. Well, Dave grew up playing billiards also when he was young, absolutely loved the game. And he got very, very good, known to string some very sporty runs at the table. (Still does).

Wouldn’t you know it, they struck up a friendly game of billiards on table #1 between matches. Not for big stakes, for the fun of the game. Don’t worry, although it was a friendly, talk-a-lot game, both quickly dialed into serious concentration. Both are known far and wide for their killer instincts and concentration, as Garczar said earlier.
Well, after several hours they were dead even, and Efren made a point to come over to shake Dave’s hand. Then he said to Dave that Dave was the best player that played BOTH games that he had ever played in all his years. I watched it, it was something else. Per Garczar’s comments earlier, you can imagine how this background helped Dave’s kicking prowess on a pool table. (And Efren)! By the way, this could be another skill in Dave’s arsenal that has allowed him to approach table layouts just a bit different from the norm.

Will Prout

Holy schnikes, that's awesome -- huge praise coming from Efren, considering how great his billiards game is.

That gives me some new, further insight into Matlock's abilities ...
 

Rico

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Valley tables have a flat piece of metal that you set that lets the regular balls pass under and stop the big rockand let it fall into the cue ball return. When its the regular valley or what some call the mudd ball the magnet pulls it to the return. Themudd ball was the same size but heavier.Dave is one of my favorites there were many Big ball guys Kieth,Buddy,Allen H. Dallas W Larry H.jump in Jay, im forgetting names.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Valley tables have a flat piece of metal that you set that lets the regular balls pass under and stop the big rockand let it fall into the cue ball return. When its the regular valley or what some call the mudd ball the magnet pulls it to the return. Themudd ball was the same size but heavier.Dave is one of my favorites there were many Big ball guys Kieth,Buddy,Allen H. Dallas W Larry H.jump in Jay, im forgetting names.
Not that I've ever seen a table damaged big ball but won't that kind obstruction ding the ball?
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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Silver Member
I've had the privilege to watch and play Dave for the last 3 decades (just played him a tournament on Saturday). I believe the Midwest 9 ball changed to alternate breaks because of Dave. He won several events in a row. His intensity is 2nd to none. His game is smooth and powerful. What I think separated Dave over other top players on the bar box is what he could do with trouble balls. His 3 cushion knowledge along with that powerful stroke made watching him deal with clusters and other issues a treat. I would try to figure out what was going to do with a problem and he wouldn't disappoint. I was hoping to learn something but I realized that I needed his stroke on some of those shots!
There you go! Matlock is the only guy that I ever saw completely overpower the table on a bar box. What was a problem for normal players was child's play for Dave. He would simply rearrange the balls and continue his run. Dave ran out racks when the rest of the world played safe!
 
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