Declaration of "not an instructor" status -- do we have it all backwards?
- Thread starter sfleinen
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Agreed. Congratulations, Steve! Even if you choose not to follow through to the more advanced levels, at least you had the benefit of a structured syllabus -- packed with good material, no doubt -- that you can "pick and choose" from, according to your fancy / what benefits your game the most.
Congrats again!
-Sean
Bruce,
My feelings are not hurt. But, apparently you are responding here before reading the posts I sggested in the 'tell me what you think' thread. Please take the time to do that.
Your post made me question if perhaps I did misunderstand so I re-read it. Mr. Avlon is the only one I know of that provided a link & I utilized it to find out that initially one becomes 'recognized' & that after two years of being recognized one can become certified. That certainly seems more reasonable. I stopped there & did read the entire site. So, if there is an excellerated process, I am not aware of it, but that's okay.
Mr. Lee said in post #18 that boyersj would be certified after the 3 day session. That would have been a good opportunity to explain & avoid any misunderstanding instead of possibly contributing to one.
I do not think that I am more focused on it, but it seems as though some responses were 'directed' toward me so I responded & re-iterated my surprise that one could become 'certified' basically to be a teacher in just 3 days with only a 3 day session on how to be an instructor.
I do not necessarily agreee, but ChicagoRJ says that it is so complex that one does not have the time to figure it out on one's own, well if so, then how can one become a certified teacher of such complex things after only a 3 day course. It's either too complex for the averge person & requires instruction or it is easy enough that one can become a certified teacher of it in just 3 days. Which is it? Well by PBIA guidelines it's not just a 3 day session. So it is probably some where in between.
I'm sorry if the '3 day' statement, that I was basically told to be true by Mr. Lee, upsets some here on AZB. I later found out that that is not the case as outlined by the PBIA. Two years to become a certified instructor now seems a bit long to me depending on one's activity actually instructing during that time frame. One size does not fit all & as has been point out to me years of experience can mean nothing.
As to your post I only took a bit of exception with the 'tone' of your post, as if there can be an actual tone in text. Perhaps your choice of words & how they were arranged is what a took a bit of exception with. We're good. I know you are usually one of the voices of reason here on AZB & everyone makes mistake, I certainly have.
Please re-read the thead especially #18 & also #37 & I think you will come away with a different understanding.
I was & am merely expressing my opinions. I do not understand why some become so defensive. It makes me sometimes ask myself, why?
Regards,
Mr. Steve,
I am glad all went went well for you & that you enjoyed it.
Congratulations!
You seem to be a passionate & reasonable person. It looks like & I would bet that you will become an asset to the pool instruction community.
Congratulations again.
Regards &
I am glad all went went well for you & that you enjoyed it.
Congratulations!
You seem to be a passionate & reasonable person. It looks like & I would bet that you will become an asset to the pool instruction community.
Congratulations again.
Regards &
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Rick, are you being obtuse on purpose?
Yes, pool is a very complex sport that MOST persons cannot figure out on their own. Even world champions, road warriors and master level players learned "stuff" from one another at some point and time.
And you keep bringing up the 3 day course..... Well, everyone has to start somewhere, but even "recogonized" instructors know or should know their limitations.
And the 3 days course, provided by a Master Instructor can and does bring into many of the complex variables related to pool playing and pool instruction. But did anyone, at anytime, say that the 3 day course provided everything they needed to know about pool ??
I don't know anyone that provides the 3 day course without being thoroughly vetted, and to make sure they actually know how to play the game at a decent level. Most that would even have the interest would have to be pretty good players, would you not think so?
I don't play hockey, and never did. For the life of me I could NOT imagine going to obtain some "coaching" certification so I could teach hockey......and also pay for the priviledge ???
And Bruce was absolutely right. If you are confused about the "instructor training", then you should do your homework before you post on here because you should have adequate information to speak intelligently on the subject, rather than criticize those who did not "explain" the process to your personal satisfaction. You kinda have a chip on your should but not really sure why?
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TheThaiger
Banned
Hang on. It's in everyone's interests for the process to be transparent, but it palpably isn't.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask an Instructor for chapter and verse on the processes involved.
Rick, I'll reply one last time, for claritys sake, and hopefully we can eventually contain this particular derailment.
From my initial reading of Scott's posts, I took him to mean that after viewing Steve's video, AND their subsequent phone conversation, that Scott felt comfortable enough with Steve's ability AND his knowledge AND his ability to explain/express that information, that he was already at a level of proficiency such that after going through the formal "3 day" course he would be able to be certified at the entry level of "instructors". I fully expect that not many folks would get that sort of offer.
I understood that from the get go. Apparently others did not. There have been several references (by others beside you) to the possibility of anyone with the cash could take the "3 day" course and then become a certified "instructor". I did not then, nor do I know believe that to be true. That was the whole point of my reply to you, which as I said before was meant for everyone who has made passing reference to the "3 days."
It makes perfect sense to me that there can very well be individuals out there who already play at a sufficiently high enough level, and have the background and knowledge to instruct others, that simply need to be indoctrinated in the formal goals, objectives and expectations that the organization requires of all who wish to become certified. This appeared to be the case all along, at least to me.
I believe that we have flogged this deceased equine sufficiently. :deadhorse:
I'm thrilled that Scott's session with Steve went well. Someday I plan on taking Scott's course for a far lesser skilled player
From my initial reading of Scott's posts, I took him to mean that after viewing Steve's video, AND their subsequent phone conversation, that Scott felt comfortable enough with Steve's ability AND his knowledge AND his ability to explain/express that information, that he was already at a level of proficiency such that after going through the formal "3 day" course he would be able to be certified at the entry level of "instructors". I fully expect that not many folks would get that sort of offer.
I understood that from the get go. Apparently others did not. There have been several references (by others beside you) to the possibility of anyone with the cash could take the "3 day" course and then become a certified "instructor". I did not then, nor do I know believe that to be true. That was the whole point of my reply to you, which as I said before was meant for everyone who has made passing reference to the "3 days."
It makes perfect sense to me that there can very well be individuals out there who already play at a sufficiently high enough level, and have the background and knowledge to instruct others, that simply need to be indoctrinated in the formal goals, objectives and expectations that the organization requires of all who wish to become certified. This appeared to be the case all along, at least to me.
I believe that we have flogged this deceased equine sufficiently. :deadhorse:
I'm thrilled that Scott's session with Steve went well. Someday I plan on taking Scott's course for a far lesser skilled player
It is, and he was provided links to it as well. Just because he was unable to comprehend the subject matter, he decided it was the fault of others for him being unable to understand.
And he has NO plans whatsever on ever obtaining any type of certification, so not really sure how much time needs to be used to explain to him knowing he is not even interested in the process, and then those others get criticized because the process was not explained to his personal satifscation....
He seems to prefer to argue his point versus just educating himself on the matter at hand...... a strange way to go about it, but hey, what do I know anyways ???
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And just in case anyone missed it before:
The PBIA (formerly BCA) has an instructor training and certification program. The details of how to become a PBIA instructor and how to advance in level is covered on the PBIA web site. Since the requirements change from time to time it is best to refer directly to the information on the website http://playbetterbilliards.com/go-pro/ and then ask questions if something is not clear.
Bobby J., I guess I was exaggerating a bit in post 155. I should have wrote brain surgery procedure. That would be correct. Kind of interesting how you would take me to task for that, and by making up that ridiculous scenario. But then you missed the opportunity to answer the Q re, upgrading our sport. You sir should not be writing about goofiness.Jim S.
So you seem to be saying that if someone has already been trained in brain surgery then it should take them less than a year to learn a new procedure. Is that the psuedo-point that you are trying to get across?
If so, it seems that you feel learning to teach well is a trivial effort compared to learning how to play well. Is that the real point you were trying to make?
Do you have specific ways that you feel the present PBIA Instructor Training program should be changed?
Rick...As usual, you fail miserably at understanding the concept of the process of becoming a "qualified" instructor. Just because someone desires to take the instructor course doesn't mean they will be accepted, or be able to pass the tests given. Steve is NOW a certified instructor in the PBIA program. He has passed the requirements necessary for the entry level certification. He does NOT have to wait 2 years to upgrade to the next level. There certainly is, as Fran pointed out, some confusion in the "labels" of certification levels, in using the terms "Recognized" (Level 1)and "Certified" (Level 2). Advanced and Master certification are much more clear, as a label. I did not withhold any information on the certication process, nor did I misstate anything. You, as usual, want to nitpick every word, phraseology, concept, or label, to make is seem like it's some "secret society". The PBIA certified instructor program is designed for one thing, and that is to provide a material process on how to teach others how to teach themselves to become better poolplayers. The PBIA also serves the sport in terms of creating a professional association, where any instructor, if they choose, may join, and receive the benefits of said organization. It also serves as somewhat of a "clearing house" where anybody can search out a professional certified instructor, in their local area. Certainly many areas are not served by a professional certified instructor...yet. That will change in time, and there is a certain power in numbers.
For the time being you have instructors like myself and Randy, who are willing and able to travel to serve the needs of people who have no access in their local area. IMO Steve will make an excellent instructor. He has the requisite teaching skills (and had them before pursuing PBIA certification), the playing knowledge, and the passion for passing that knowledge along to others. As he mentioned, what I gave him was an organized format. He is free to utilize the materials I supplied him with, or create his own...just as he is free to teach any methodology (SPF or not). I believe the SPF process is superior, for many reasons. Apparently many instructors do as well. The lion's share (60-70%) of PBIA instructors were certified through our SPF methodology. It continues to amaze me how you just want to be a "pot stirrer" (like Thaiger). Either lead, follow, or get the f*ck out the way! I choose to be a leader.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
For the time being you have instructors like myself and Randy, who are willing and able to travel to serve the needs of people who have no access in their local area. IMO Steve will make an excellent instructor. He has the requisite teaching skills (and had them before pursuing PBIA certification), the playing knowledge, and the passion for passing that knowledge along to others. As he mentioned, what I gave him was an organized format. He is free to utilize the materials I supplied him with, or create his own...just as he is free to teach any methodology (SPF or not). I believe the SPF process is superior, for many reasons. Apparently many instructors do as well. The lion's share (60-70%) of PBIA instructors were certified through our SPF methodology. It continues to amaze me how you just want to be a "pot stirrer" (like Thaiger). Either lead, follow, or get the f*ck out the way!
I choose to be a leader.Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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Steve...Yes, it was an exhausting weekend...but it's that "feel good" kind of exhaustive feeling, from both of our perspectives. You were an excellent student, and I have no doubt you will become a valuable addition to the PBIA/SPF group. As you said, you have been given a format. Now it's up to you to learn it, and use it how it best suits your purpose! Welcome to the PBIA! I had a great time working with you, and look forward to many more opportunities to work with you, both as a student and as an instructor!:thumbup:
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
TheThaiger
Banned
Rick...As usual, you fail miserably at understanding the concept of the process of becoming a "qualified" instructor. Just because someone desires to take the instructor course doesn't mean they will be accepted, or be able to pass the tests given. Steve is NOW a certified instructor in the PBIA program. He has passed the requirements necessary for the entry level certification. He does NOT have to wait 2 years to upgrade to the next level. There certainly is, as Fran pointed out, some confusion in the "labels" of certification levels, in using the terms "Recognized" (Level 1)and "Certified" (Level 2). Advanced and Master certification are much more clear, as a label. I did not withhold any information on the certication process, nor did I misstate anything. You, as usual, want to nitpick every word, phraseology, concept, or label, to make is seem like it's some "secret society". The PBIA certified instructor program is designed for one thing, and that is to provide a material process on how to teach others how to teach themselves to become better poolplayers. The PBIA also serves the sport in terms of creating a professional association, where any instructor, if they choose, may join, and receive the benefits of said organization. It also serves as somewhat of a "clearing house" where anybody can search out a professional certified instructor, in their local area. Certainly many areas are not served by a professional certified instructor...yet. That will change in time, and there is a certain power in numbers.
For the time being you have instructors like myself and Randy, who are willing and able to travel to serve the needs of people who have no access in their local area. IMO Steve will make an excellent instructor. He has the requisite teaching skills (and had them before pursuing PBIA certification), the playing knowledge, and the passion for passing that knowledge along to others. As he mentioned, what I gave him was an organized format. He is free to utilize the materials I supplied him with, or create his own...just as he is free to teach any methodology (SPF or not). I believe the SPF process is superior, for many reasons. Apparently many instructors do as well. The lion's share (60-70%) of PBIA instructors were certified through our SPF methodology. It continues to amaze me how you just want to be a "pot stirrer" (like Thaiger). Either lead, follow, or get the f*ck out the way!
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
What percentage of people who undertake *any* part of the certified instructor course fail?
For me, I haven't had anyone take my course yet who failed. However, I have turned down a fair share of people to take the course. What percentage? No idea. I don't keep the stats. It's a small percentage, though.
Most people have a sense of whether or not they have some skills. I find that it's rare when someone is so out of touch with himself where he (or she) feels he is qualified to apply to be an instructor when he really doesn't have a clue.
I concur with Fran about having a feeling if I would be qualified, but that is why I posted my video a few weeks ago. I wanted professional confirmation.
I would like to add, that prior to wanting to become an instructor - I had taught others. I was successful at helping others become a more successful pool player. Since I personally had some form of success at teaching, I did feel I was a candidate, but not 100%. I could have continued showing people ways to improve. Some of my methods were sound, but most were not. Why? Because there were things that are important that I didn't even realize.
Anyhow, school was still quite difficult. The course matter is intense, detailed, and mentally exhausting. Enjoyable, memorable, and REALLY beneficial as well.
Prior to pool school, I felt I could teach someone to be a better player.
After pool school I believe I can instruct someone to be their best player.
The difference is in having a plan, knowing all the components and why they are important. Providing the student with a method to remember the material and train themselves.
I would like to add, that prior to wanting to become an instructor - I had taught others. I was successful at helping others become a more successful pool player. Since I personally had some form of success at teaching, I did feel I was a candidate, but not 100%. I could have continued showing people ways to improve. Some of my methods were sound, but most were not. Why? Because there were things that are important that I didn't even realize.
Anyhow, school was still quite difficult. The course matter is intense, detailed, and mentally exhausting. Enjoyable, memorable, and REALLY beneficial as well.
Prior to pool school, I felt I could teach someone to be a better player.
After pool school I believe I can instruct someone to be their best player.
The difference is in having a plan, knowing all the components and why they are important. Providing the student with a method to remember the material and train themselves.
Rick...As usual, you fail miserably at understanding the concept of the process of becoming a "qualified" instructor. Just because someone desires to take the instructor course doesn't mean they will be accepted, or be able to pass the tests given. Steve is NOW a certified instructor in the PBIA program. He has passed the requirements necessary for the entry level certification. He does NOT have to wait 2 years to upgrade to the next level. There certainly is, as Fran pointed out, some confusion in the "labels" of certification levels, in using the terms "Recognized" (Level 1)and "Certified" (Level 2). Advanced and Master certification are much more clear, as a label. I did not withhold any information on the certication process, nor did I misstate anything. You, as usual, want to nitpick every word, phraseology, concept, or label, to make is seem like it's some "secret society". The PBIA certified instructor program is designed for one thing, and that is to provide a material process on how to teach others how to teach themselves to become better poolplayers. The PBIA also serves the sport in terms of creating a professional association, where any instructor, if they choose, may join, and receive the benefits of said organization. It also serves as somewhat of a "clearing house" where anybody can search out a professional certified instructor, in their local area. Certainly many areas are not served by a professional certified instructor...yet. That will change in time, and there is a certain power in numbers.
For the time being you have instructors like myself and Randy, who are willing and able to travel to serve the needs of people who have no access in their local area. IMO Steve will make an excellent instructor. He has the requisite teaching skills (and had them before pursuing PBIA certification), the playing knowledge, and the passion for passing that knowledge along to others. As he mentioned, what I gave him was an organized format. He is free to utilize the materials I supplied him with, or create his own...just as he is free to teach any methodology (SPF or not). I believe the SPF process is superior, for many reasons. Apparently many instructors do as well. The lion's share (60-70%) of PBIA instructors were certified through our SPF methodology. It continues to amaze me how you just want to be a "pot stirrer" (like Thaiger). Either lead, follow, or get the f*ck out the way!
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Go Scott. Tell it like it really is. But remember what we have learned about deaf ears.
I like your post
POPS
Good morning Thaiger.
Because we have to screen our instructor applicants before they attend the certification class, a high percentage will make the 1st grade of Recognized.
Thanks for asking
randyg
At the SF Billiard Academy there are three possible outcomes: pass, pass conditionally with some additional requirements, and fail. I can recall three or four instructor trainees who have had conditional passes and I think all of them met the additional requirements. There has been one fail.
Been following most of the thread, a few comments.
- While I don't think you need to be BCA (or PBIA?) certified to be a good and knowledgeable instructor, a lot of work has gone into that framework over the years and it can definitely provide a solid foundation from which to teach the game to others in a consistent and accurate manner
- If looking to teach as more of a living than a hobby, some sort of certification can be helpful for the masses, many of whom seem to want to see some sort of credentials (or playing pedigree) associated with potential instructors
- A little more flexibility could be infused into the BCA/PBIA teachings and responses, just from my perspective. I know people are free to add or change the material, and certain instructors have, but I think too often people's perception of the program and instructors is that is a very rigid, SPF, SAM, etc. type of program with only one path. Especially with all of the information that has been presented as technology and communication has improved, and the wide variety of successful styles out there, I don't think a rigid approach is the best. However, I do believe that simplified, rigid approach can be best when teaching people from the beginning - KISS approach
- Unlike golf or tennis, many people in the pool community don't value formal lessons in the same manner. As another poster mentioned, people will play years and years before even thinking about taking a formal lesson. And even then often will not want to pay even nominal prices for good instruction
Scott
- While I don't think you need to be BCA (or PBIA?) certified to be a good and knowledgeable instructor, a lot of work has gone into that framework over the years and it can definitely provide a solid foundation from which to teach the game to others in a consistent and accurate manner
- If looking to teach as more of a living than a hobby, some sort of certification can be helpful for the masses, many of whom seem to want to see some sort of credentials (or playing pedigree) associated with potential instructors
- A little more flexibility could be infused into the BCA/PBIA teachings and responses, just from my perspective. I know people are free to add or change the material, and certain instructors have, but I think too often people's perception of the program and instructors is that is a very rigid, SPF, SAM, etc. type of program with only one path. Especially with all of the information that has been presented as technology and communication has improved, and the wide variety of successful styles out there, I don't think a rigid approach is the best. However, I do believe that simplified, rigid approach can be best when teaching people from the beginning - KISS approach
- Unlike golf or tennis, many people in the pool community don't value formal lessons in the same manner. As another poster mentioned, people will play years and years before even thinking about taking a formal lesson. And even then often will not want to pay even nominal prices for good instruction
Scott
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